Rules shielded theft objectives.

[Kryson]

It seems to me that antagonists on a medium RP server should seek to be creative and add to the round rather than powergaming and chasing the green text.

Then why are antag theft objectives treated as sacred?

Isn't actually searching for the item more engaging than the formulaic emag door/locker -> grab item or kill head -> grab item. This is aggravated by the supremely stupid item advanced pinpointer that just spoonfeeds you the location of your targets.

Conducting your own investigation and then robbing the possible suspects is a lot more fun  in my opinion.

Blasting greytiders with rubbershot is a more tangible form of antagonism than silently hacking the teleporter door anyway.

I think it is a bad rule since it makes little IC sense and promotes green text chasing.

What do you think?

[TheClosetMailman]

Bay straight up has no objectives, you make your own.

 

Its a bit hard to adjust to, but so far it has resulted in:

1. A chef trying to hijack the ENTIRE ship to turn into a flying restaurant.
2. A unathi trying to escape back to his home world by stealing the armed shuttle.
3. A traitor trying to out-duel the Captain.
4. A deck technician trying to make as much money as possible by selling the ship to vox.

As theres no real greentext either, if a traitor loses, they usually surrender easily or at least avoid killing people.

[davidchan]

I'd welcome a change where antags are given a list of High Value Targets. This could vary the NAD or Handtele to something more mundane but still rare like CE's boots or Lamar. Each item on the list is given a point value and objectives are simply to acquire X amount of points. With all the antags in a round going after the same items, they'd still be free to betray each other or work in coordination to achieve harder, higher value items. Murder objectives would be harder to fit into this system unless all the traitors got points for the kill or each were given different lists with only a slight chance of overlap.

Hijack would be the most difficult to rule into as you'd have to make a system where only select traitors are given hijack as an acceptable outcome or all traitors in the round are given hijack.

[Strings]

I think part of the reason antags aren't always more creative is because it feels very easy to get caught and subsequently put in perma. 

There's been a few rounds where I've disclosed my.. traitorous nature to some folk and they've RPed awesomely to help me out or mildly protect me. Others have abandoned all sense of RP and immediately go full on "CATCH THE VALID". But it never feels appropriate to adminhelp that because.. well I was a traitor?

[Kluys]

Just to give a short reply regarding the question of the OP.

There is little chance we will ever allow people to steal antag objectives when they are not an antag. If they want to do such a thing they can easily request admin permission to do it if their reason is good enough. Consider that part of this thread off the table unless a head wakes up and says otherwise.

I am however all for discussing ways to make theft objectives more interesting so I will leave the thread open as long as the discussion doesn't get heated.

[Birdtalon]

3 hours ago, Kryson said:

This is aggravated by the supremely stupid item advanced pinpointer that just spoonfeeds you the location of your targets.

If this item didn't exist it could be almost impossible to find items. There's plenty of places you could hide the theft objectives and with no mechanic to actually find where they were you'd be relying on luck alone. You could even throw the theft objective into space and if you throw diagonally there's a high chance the antag would never find it.

Simply the theft items are too simple, easy and too few.

[EvadableMoxie]

Steal objectives aren't just off limits for non-antagonists for the benefit of antagonists. They are off limited because stealing is normally allowed, and if you were allowed to steal antag objectives then you could basically be an antag every round by just deciding you feel like stealing the compact defib this shift. Part of the self-antaging rules is preventing non-antags from basically acting like antags when they aren't.

Also, even though on paper the idea of conducting an investigation and tracking down the item sounds good, he reality is in the majority of cases if someone else steals it and you don't have an advanced pinpointer, you aren't finding it.  If you do find it, it will be because you got lucky.  It's actually very easy to grab a random traitor objective and then head out into space and just leave it somewhere no one is ever going to find it.

[Kryson]

16 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

It's actually very easy to grab a random traitor objective and then head out into space and just leave it somewhere no one is ever going to find it.

 

16 hours ago, Birdtalon said:

You could even throw the theft objective into space and if you throw diagonally there's a high chance the antag would never find it.

This is like a fantasy scenario that doesn't happen even when allowed and would probably be forbidden under the powergaming rule anyway if done habitually. I've seen this happen once in hundreds of hours  on /tg/ where this is allowed(HoS spaced his own gun to deny a traitor).

 

16 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

If you do find it, it will be because you got lucky. 

I'd say you have a better chance of finding it than the detective, and he manages to track down the suspect a fair amount of the time.

I have revised my position on this though.

At first i thought, who cares if you find x object or greentext? But after some reflection, I guess this rule is a necessary due to limited options for antagonism for non-hijack solo antagonists, vampire excluded.

[Fox McCloud]

20 hours ago, TheClosetMailman said:

Bay straight up has no objectives, you make your own.

 

Its a bit hard to adjust to, but so far it has resulted in:

1. A chef trying to hijack the ENTIRE ship to turn into a flying restaurant.
2. A unathi trying to escape back to his home world by stealing the armed shuttle.
3. A traitor trying to out-duel the Captain.
4. A deck technician trying to make as much money as possible by selling the ship to vox.

As theres no real greentext either, if a traitor loses, they usually surrender easily or at least avoid killing people.

 

This sounds nice and all, but the server culture is distinctively different, too. It also makes things incredibly administratively grey.

 

If you have no objective, this inherently means that you can do just about anything. Some players will definitely use this to do actions like releasing the singularity literally every single time they get antag or carpet bombing the entire station.

 

Other people will do as above---and yet other people may run silly little gimmicks, too.

 

I kinda doubt most players and staff would be too keen on allowing people to do whatever whenever. Putting such a rule in place then puts the player in the very strange area of "what do I do then?"

 

This also, administratively, puts extra scrutiny on "why did you do X"--likewise, it becomes very difficult to judge what someone is really going for. Did they just murder those 5 people to set up for the most epic and hilarious IC joke while also making a definitive point? Are they trying to roleplay out some scenario or situation and they had to kill those 5 to do it? Orrrr do they just like killing people and did it because they can?

Situations like this invariably invite favoritism, with those who individual admins deem to be "good" at roleplay can get away with a lot more than those they do not.

Given that we're aiming to be medium RP, objectiveless antags are really awkward, and trend towards "do whatves man"; I'm not sure how well it'd work here; it'd either lead to antags just doing...well, whatever the heck they wanted...orrr it'd result in situations where antags did even less for fear of getting bwoinked (an oversimplified version of what plays out on Bay).

It's an unfortunate problem with no good solution. While allowing antags to do whatever leads to some pretty hilarious situations, interesting roleplay adventures, and great gimmicks....I'm not sure it'd be great here.

 

Having a designated time, once or twice a month of "Syndicate Slaughter Day" where antags can do whatever on those days may be a way to alleviate this to a degree, without going full chaos, but who knows.

[ZN23X]

21 hours ago, TheClosetMailman said:

Bay straight up has no objectives, you make your own.

 

Its a bit hard to adjust to, but so far it has resulted in:

1. A chef trying to hijack the ENTIRE ship to turn into a flying restaurant.
2. A unathi trying to escape back to his home world by stealing the armed shuttle.
3. A traitor trying to out-duel the Captain.
4. A deck technician trying to make as much money as possible by selling the ship to vox.

As theres no real greentext either, if a traitor loses, they usually surrender easily or at least avoid killing people.

Bay also has much stricter rules than we do forcing people to behave a certain way to enforce HRP.

As others have mentioned...there is a different mindset of the community. They have far less players there that would interpet "Do whatever you want" as "Kill and destroy as much as you want" which would be a rampant problem in this community.

People can surrender easily here, or avoid killing people...there is nothing i. the rules restricting them from doing so. Some do...people just don't notice it because going that route is very quiet. Especially on this station, where when you try to do something more subtle it usually gets drowned out by some other antag doing something loud...or play to win security players that don't give a damn about your RP and just want to throw you in perma cuz you are a confirmed EOC.

Edited March 26, 2019 by ZN23X

[Calecute]

Do note wiz has basically no objective and they usually charge the station and die in 5 min.

And i mean, if you want to do a gimmick and ignore your objective you already can, as long as you keep away from hijack only things. No one's gonna enforce that you try to green text. 

[Fox McCloud]

Do note wiz has basically no objective and they usually charge the station and die in 5 min.

 

They also don't have stealth on their side; they can't exactly max 5 max caps without being noticed and drawing suspicion; a traitor who's a scientist can.

 

 

[McRamon]

9 hours ago, Fox McCloud said:

 

 

 

They also don't have stealth on their side; they can't exactly max 5 max caps without being noticed and drawing suspicion; a traitor who's a scientist can.

 

 

what? they totally can do it silently and unnoticed... (if only i knew how to make max caps...)

[ZN23X]

23 hours ago, Calecute said:

And i mean, if you want to do a gimmick and ignore your objective you already can, as long as you keep away from hijack only things. No one's gonna enforce that you try to green text. 

Bingo. I'm actually surprised that more people don't just simply use antag as a means to be the type of greytide that would get you bwoinked as a non antag.

Antags ARE allowed to commit lesser, non perma-able crimes. People focus too much on comitting acts that will end thier round if they get caught.

Also I cannot stress this enough. If anyone who is antagging (or even not antaghing) ever wants to try to do something that they fear might be over the top, just AHELP it! Instead of trying to see if you can get away with something, just ask and possibly get the green light.

Edited March 27, 2019 by ZN23X

[Kryson]

On 3/27/2019 at 3:59 PM, ZN23X said:

Antags ARE allowed to commit lesser, non perma-able crimes. People focus too much on comitting acts that will end thier round if they get caught.

The problem is that many of these bay style gimmicks are very non-threatening and fail to provide real tension.

Local syndicate terrorist steal apples from old man Jenkins hydroponic orchard.

There are fun gimmicks you can do on paradise such as stealing the entire armoury or rescuing all prisoners from perma.

Although many traitor gimmicks involve some kind of violence or risk of death, there is for example a qualitative difference between someone silently murderboning 20 with ebow/esword and 20 people dying because a mad plant scientist covered the entire station in max stats kudzu and killer tomatoes while taunting the crew.

One of my greatest traitor moments on /tg/ was when a trial was held for two traitors accused of stealing the hand tele(which they had managed ditch before their arrest) and i stormed in to hand over a bag purportedly containing the piece of evidence in question.

When the detective tried to retrieve the hand tele from the bag he instead found an armed mousetrap grenade, killing the detective, captain as well as the lawyer representing the accused.

I was able to then free the traitors, obtain the medal of captaincy as well as all access.

I think many players would be hesitant to even ask if they could do like this on paradise because they figure they will get denied for sure.

Do you admins feels you are liberal in granting such requests, contrary to what i think is the common perception? If so, how do we communicate this to the playerbase?

Edited March 29, 2019 by Kryson

[ZN23X]

5 hours ago, Kryson said:

I think many players would be hesitant to even ask if they could do like this on paradise because they figure they will get denied for sure.

Worst answer you will get if you ask is no, which is the best answer you get if you don't. Asking can be the difference between getting permission to do something and being bwoinked or banned doing the same thing. So the risk of asking is far less. We MIGHT say no, but at least in that case you won't get in trouble for just trying without asking.

5 hours ago, Kryson said:

Do you admins feels you are liberal in granting such requests, contrary to what i think is the common perception? If so, how do we communicate this to the playerbase?

We like to find ways to add to rounds that are slow...thats part of why we are here. We also don't always have our creative juices flowing, so if a player decides to drop an idea in our lap that can add content that makes things even easier for us. The difference is we can see everything that is happening and make a determination. Like if you ask to do something and we say no, its not necessarily because we didn't like the idea nor does it mean we would always decline that idea. And of course there is always the possiblity its just a bad idea that will never fly, but a no doesn't mean thats always the case

Edited March 29, 2019 by ZN23X

[Veloxi]

7 hours ago, ZN23X said:

We like to find ways to add to rounds that are slow...thats part of why we are here. We also don't always have our creative juices flowing, so if a player decides to drop an idea in our lap that can add content that makes things even easier for us. The difference is we can see everything that is happening and make a determination. Like if you ask to do something and we say no, its not necessarily because we didn't like the idea nor does it mean we would always decline that idea. And of course there is always the possiblity its just a bad idea that will never fly, but a no doesn't mean thats always the case

This is true. One round I joined as an observer and there was an admin event going on.
It was stuck in a kind of boring stalemate, so I offered up an idea in dead chat.
I got spawned in to do the idea that I had pitched.

In round terms, it was only a 'bit part'; but it was a lot of fun.
Even more fun was watching the fallout after I got back to dead chat.
Command was absolutely shocked, it was incredible to watch.

[ID404NotFound]

you can never properly rob a person, to the effect of pointing a weapon at them and saying "stick 'em up!". Most players here (especially regulars) will resist and attempt to disarm you, and attack you with zero fear. Hostage situations are also a bust, as the hostage will either do option A as described above, or security will rush you with no regard for the hostage, as there is no reason not to.

[TheClosetMailman]

2 hours ago, ID404NotFound said:

you can never properly rob a person, to the effect of pointing a weapon at them and saying "stick 'em up!". Most players here (especially regulars) will resist and attempt to disarm you, and attack you with zero fear. Hostage situations are also a bust, as the hostage will either do option A as described above, or security will rush you with no regard for the hostage, as there is no reason not to.

This.

Seriously, i had a coworker murder me "CUZ TATOR" after i waved a screwdriver in her direction and stated You`re my target now because i wanted to spoof her.

 

I was a tator, but she was anything but related to, or was, the target.

Thankfully i got cloned but jeez, up to that point we had been perfectly normal coworkers, chit chatting.

[ZN23X]

3 hours ago, ID404NotFound said:

you can never properly rob a person, to the effect of pointing a weapon at them and saying "stick 'em up!". Most players here (especially regulars) will resist and attempt to disarm you, and attack you with zero fear. Hostage situations are also a bust, as the hostage will either do option A as described above, or security will rush you with no regard for the hostage, as there is no reason not to.

All parties are at fault in this regard. Antags, security, and even victims who are afraid to allow themselves to be vulnerable lead to the predictable behavior we regularly see.

Too much wordless killing/tasing. Too much "Halp maint" immediately when trouble pops up. All who exhibit this behavior are at fault.

I've allowed myself to be vulnerable as sec. It sometimes gets me wordlessly killed, it also sometimes allows me and antags to experience a situation that those who don't allow themselves to be vulnerable will never experience. I know its impossible to get everyone to do this, but if more people did it, things would be more interesting.

Edited March 29, 2019 by ZN23X

[EvadableMoxie]

18 hours ago, Kryson said:

Do you admins feels you are liberal in granting such requests, contrary to what i think is the common perception? If so, how do we communicate this to the playerbase?

It depends on the round but I'd say in general admins tend to stick to the normal rules and only grant permission to break them in special circumstances. That shouldn't really be surprised, the rules are the rules for a reason. 

That said, no one has ever been punished for asking.

[MrMagolor]

The issue is that even if you do try to make a fun gimmick, more often than not it will just result in security validing and perambrigging you: because you are an EoC after all.

And in addition, most gimmicks are so destructive that they require hijack to do, anyways.

Edited April 1, 2019 by MrMagolor

[TheClosetMailman]

1 minute ago, MrMagolor said:

The issue is that even if you do try to make a fun gimmick, more often than not it will just result in the entire station  validing and perambrigging you: because you are an EoC after all.

Fixed.

[Calecute]

"And in addition, most gimmicks are so destructive that they require hijack to do, anyways."

Come on, there are a lot of fun gimmicks that are not that destructive. 

[MrMagolor]

On 4/1/2019 at 9:29 AM, MrMagolor said:

The issue is that even if you do try to make a fun gimmick, more often than not it will just result in the entire station validing and perambrigging you: because you are an EoC after all.

 

On 4/1/2019 at 9:31 AM, TheClosetMailman said:

Fixed.

Thanks, I forgot that bit.