SOP Suggestion: Departmental Tranverse

[bryanayalalugo]

Lately, especially recently, there has been departments that appeared to just acquire/build equipment that they do not have business having/have "authorization" to have it to begin with. In this case, specifically RnD equipment, usually near round start when there are no threats and it's usually green alert.

You sometimes see engineering, especially if it involves the mechanic's research server console, building RnD equipment near round start, which they often do not even ask the Research Director before hand and just acquire the boards from tech storage. RnD equipment is something the Research Director is supposed to watch over and see that isn't abused, the issue however is when other departments build it in areas the Research Director almost never has access to, hindering the fact that they have to watch it.

Currently however, there is no section to the Standard Operating Procedures forbidding departments from building machines/sensitive equipment of other departments. One could argue that it's common sense, but I believe it's better if it's written down in SOP instead of it just being assumed, as common sense and it being written out are usually two different things at times.

[WingedYordle]

I mean, departments aren’t allowed to change or construct without permits from the CE and this is not being enforced. It is part of SoP too. How do we know the new SoP would be enforced if it was passed?

[bryanayalalugo]

That's a bit different, @Trubus, as it largely focus on the construction aspects of rooms, as in actually building rooms and such (what SOP was that by the way?).

I am referring to equipment, and have it written somewhere that personnel outside of department Y requires authorization from Head of Staff X for equipment M.

For example, a bit back there was this one engineer went and built RnD equipment in engineering near round start, they later complained when the boards were confiscated that it's not written anywhere that they can't have the machines

[TheClosetMailman]

You could have a SOP regarding something like breathing and people would still break it. 

A good show of how little people care:

SOP states i can walk around without an ID visible on code green, but i still have to reveal it if an officer asks for it. 

Guess who got chased by McSlime TheAxe less than a minute after? 

Or on another round attacked by a secborg and their vox comrade? 

Apart from a few people i already know IC, everyone else just promptly responds to no ID with blood in mind, on code green. 

So yeah, SOP is something no "good" player follows, cus muh valids. 

 

Sorry to sound salty, but its even happening on HRP servers like Bay or Aurora

[Allfd]

Sadly I think this is going to have to be fixed via gameplay/code, or in the rules.

SoP is extremely ineffective as it often requires CC intervention to enforce.

[TheClosetMailman]

2 minutes ago, Allfd said:

Sadly I think this is going to have to be fixed via gameplay/code, or in the rules.

SoP is extremely ineffective as it often requires CC intervention to enforce.

Sadly true. 

Can we get a new law that allows the magistrate to burn SOP breakers on the stake? 

[Fursamie]

2 hours ago, Allfd said:

Sadly I think this is going to have to be fixed via gameplay/code, or in the rules.

SoP is extremely ineffective as it often requires CC intervention to enforce.

IMO it would be a bit overkill to include it in the rules and limiting to add a way that certain departments cant use other departmental equipment. The only idea I have is making it illegal (e.g clumping it in with theft depending on the item, since thats usually how you aqcuire this equipment or making a new law like "lack of authorization" which delves into this very topic).

[Calecute]

Eng has been doing science occasionally for some time. I've been kinda guilty of this myself, building an exosuit fabricator and installing implants in engs on the assembly line using our R&D console. 

 In my experience being a CE and trying to control engies doing this, and seeing other CEs doing it it's pretty hard. I think an easier way to enforce this than SoP would be useful. 

Making it a rule would solve it, althou I think there should be some exceptions with command authorization. I've seen engies doing it to finish the station project when scientists are fucking around and not working. Usually when that's the reason it starts later in the round. 

An easy way to code is just putting either the DA or the Proto or the console board behind a door engies got no access to. Probably someone who knows science better can determine which of these is optimal. 

A harder way to code is putting some more restrictions on sci printing loot, my guess is the engies are doing it just cuz they like the sci loot and have access to everything they need to make them some. But of course this should be thought more in the context of balancing sci than forbidding engies from making sci. 

[EvadableMoxie]

Departmental lathes would solve this problem.  Instead of the protolathe being one all in one machine to all the best stuff, each department gets it's own protolathe that can only print things relevant to their department. Each lathe would be locked to an ID of that department, so even if engineering builds a science protolathe it won't do them any good without a science ID. 

It has the added bonus of decentralizing power away from science.  Part of the reason departments do this is because sometimes getting science to actually give other departments stuff is pulling teeth.  Half of science is usually traitors and you're lucky if you can find someone who will be nice enough to actually man the RnD window and not just print all the best stuff for themselves and go wander off blow up monkeys or something.

Edited February 4, 2019 by EvadableMoxie

[Dinarzad]

23 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Departmental lathes would solve this problem.  Instead of the protolathe being one all in one machine to all the best stuff, each department gets it's own protolathe that can only print things relevant to their department. Each lathe would be locked to an ID of that department, so even if engineering builds a science protolathe it won't do them any good without a science ID. 

It has the added bonus of decentralizing power away from science.  Part of the reason departments do this is because sometimes getting science to actually give other departments stuff is pulling teeth.  Half of science is usually traitors and you're lucky if you can find someone who will be nice enough to actually man the RnD window and not just print all the best stuff for themselves and go wander off blow up monkeys or something.

NGL this is one of my favorite features tg has. It makes life so goddamn convenient for everyone, Science isn't constant having to print shit out for people, more time for them to be massive nerds and do insane frankenstein shit.
The only thing you really have left to do is go upgrade people's machines an then you're good to fuck off unless something specific comes up.

Though it'd likely need the Ore Silo implemented alongside it to properly function.

[davidchan]

I like the department lathes but the way the gear is divided doesn't always make sense. If miners want a telescopic shield and bluespace backpack, they need to go harass Security and Science to get them, and security rarely if ever gives combat gear to anyone even when they need it.

[EvadableMoxie]

1 minute ago, davidchan said:

I like the department lathes but the way the gear is divided doesn't always make sense. If miners want a telescopic shield and bluespace backpack, they need to go harass Security and Science to get them, and security rarely if ever gives combat gear to anyone even when they need it.

I don't think the goal of departmental lathes is to make it so everyone has absolutely anything they could ever want.  If we wanted to do that, we'd just give everyone autolathes that produce everything.  For things somewhat out of your department's specialization you need to go to another department.  But that's fine, departmental teamwork and all that. If there is an item a department really needs and consistently doesn't get it can just be added to their own autolathe. 

Under the current system no one gets anything unless they go through science, so even assuming there will sometimes be issues, it's still a vast improvement. 

[Ziiro]

Tech webs and departmental lathes are the future. They completely change the game in positive ways. (The ore silo, too) Can't suggest them enough but I also realize the weight of the task to Port them.

[Mitchs98]

I see no real reason to bar it VIA rules or mechanics, honestly it'd just end up hurting the creativity some players have or do in the long run. I rarely see anyone do anything like it anyways unless it became a huge problem in the month I've been gone. Though I will say I'm a little bias in the times I build tiny medbay but that's just me. And even without that bias, I'd still tend to disagree with limiting it in any way. Emergency or not.

[BryanR]

The whole issue with Engineering being able to build a Research and Development area itself lies in the aspect on ONE and ONLY ONE feature within the game that allows them to do so and this is the Public Research Console circuit board.

 

If that was actually removed entirely from the game, something I wouldn't be sad to see go honestly, then all access to the Protolathe, Analyzer, and Circuit Printer, would be restricted to individuals within the Science Department. The only remaining loophole would be the Mechanic's own console then and unless the Mechanic is up for cluttering their office with RnD equipment they're just shit out of luck in setting one up.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Sihsse Zsak

[WingedYordle]

I would be okay with removal

[ID404NotFound]

I might be wrong, but I've always viewed SS13 as a co-operation based game. People who try to circumvent interaction with others in favor of being a solo do-it-yourselfer building their own lathes/medbays/chem/everything/etc are kind of missing the point, in my opinion. Yes, I get that relying on others has its drawbacks at times, but maybe contribute to improving this, rather than just trying to 'escape' it by making yourself as self-sufficient as possible. Even if we had departmental lathes, etc, you'd still have people trying to circumvent.

[Norwest]

On 2/4/2019 at 6:22 AM, EvadableMoxie said:

Departmental lathes would solve this problem.  Instead of the protolathe being one all in one machine to all the best stuff, each department gets it's own protolathe that can only print things relevant to their department. Each lathe would be locked to an ID of that department, so even if engineering builds a science protolathe it won't do them any good without a science ID. 

It has the added bonus of decentralizing power away from science.  Part of the reason departments do this is because sometimes getting science to actually give other departments stuff is pulling teeth.  Half of science is usually traitors and you're lucky if you can find someone who will be nice enough to actually man the RnD window and not just print all the best stuff for themselves and go wander off blow up monkeys or something.

^This. The problem with Science as it stands is twofold:

1) Science only has a single, easy job to do, and

2) That job is utterly awful.

R&D itself is a sad joke, and the actual work involved is completed in no time (there's quite literally a guide titled "R&D In Ten Minutes Or Less" on the forum). The hard part is implementing upgrades, and once you've upgraded the departmental machines, Science's job for the rest of the round is Retail In Space. You sit at the front window, waiting for people to show up, and give 'em what they ask for. You get yelled at for not doing the job, yelled at for giving out the wrong kit to the wrong people, yelled at for being too slow, for using too many resources, etc etc etc. None of that is a recipe for fun, engaging gameplay.

It should therefore come as no surprise that Scientists skive off their actual job in favor of dicking around with pointless-but-fun side jobs like Toxins, telescience, or just placing bluespace tiles across the entire station. When your actual, assigned job is such a downer, and when you've got oodles of tools at your disposal, it's understandable that Scientists would ignore Retail In Space in favor of making fartonium. Adding departmental Protolathes wouldn't resolve the issue of R&D being stupidly easy, but it would at least address the issue of Scientists having to man the front desk (and by extension, improve Science's reputation across the station).

If I could wave my magic coding-wand, I'd like to see the whole research process overhauled, so that different areas of R&D actually contribute to the station as a whole. I'd argue that much of the poor perception of Scientists and Research as a department is that they simply don't have anything to do beyond answering the front desk and upgrading other departments' machines. I'd like to see Toxins, the EXPERIMENTOR, Xenobio, and Sci-Chem actually meaningfully contribute to research in some way. As with the departmental 'lathes, I think /tg/'s setup is a pretty good model to follow. Still, just having a better system for distributing advanced gear would be a hell of a step forward.

 

On 2/5/2019 at 3:48 PM, Sihsse Zsak said:

The whole issue with Engineering being able to build a Research and Development area itself lies in the aspect on ONE and ONLY ONE feature within the game that allows them to do so and this is the Public Research Console circuit board.

 

If that was actually removed entirely from the game, something I wouldn't be sad to see go honestly, then all access to the Protolathe, Analyzer, and Circuit Printer, would be restricted to individuals within the Science Department. The only remaining loophole would be the Mechanic's own console then and unless the Mechanic is up for cluttering their office with RnD equipment they're just shit out of luck in setting one up.

I can think of multiple alternate avenues for creating R&D besides that, and under the current conditions, I have every incentive to try one or more of them. Think of this as like dealing with the IRL illegal drug economy: trying to reduce the supply is difficult, because people are creative as all hell and will come up with many different routes around whatever impediments you place. Simply legislating "Don't Do R&D" is much like going "Don't Do Drugs," and I imagine most of us are old enough to remember how badly D.A.R.E. failed. You're better off trying to reduce the demand, via providing other departments with a legal means to acquire the gear they need. The departmental Protolathes and ore silo would largely resolve the need for another department to build their own Protolathe in the first place.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Norwest

[BryanR]

Departmental Protolathes and an ore silo....

Well lets start with the ore silo since that's the easier of the two. Public access to something like an ORM isn't going to solve any problem so much as create a new one, resources don't magically appear within it Miners deposit ore into the ORM to redeem for points. Lets say we remove the concept of the ORM and have a Silo in which everyone is able to access these resources. Instead of having Robotics, Research and Development, and Engineering competing for such things, we've now got a protolathe in every department that needs outfitted with all the possible resources that could allow them to print what they want/need. Now we have Medical, Security, Supply, Service, Science, along with Engineering vying for resources wholly dependent upon the experience and whim of the miners assigned to the asteroid.

 

What this will essentially do is create a massive demand for the resources needed to print whatever is accessible to the protolathe in their department while the supply remains entirely the same. A problem I'm sure that will be written off as "Well, we can just increase the amount of resources that get redeemed at the silo so there's plenty for everyone to go around." or perhaps we should "Open up the mining asteroid so that every department can mine for the resources they need." One of which negates the mechanic of upgrading so that there are more resources available as well as the miner's actual need to work themselves if the amount of resources they bring back is increased while the second one negates the need for the Mining sub-department entirely.

 

Departmental Protolathes is also a flawed concept since it still relies entirely on Research doing their jobs. This is of course, understanding that its just the protolathe itself and you're not throwing in a Deconstructive Analyzer and Circuit Imprinter into the bundle, you're still going to need Science to do the research and to update the servers before they become useful in any aspect. If you've already got a Scientist or two working on Research then there really isn't a need since I've seen scientists more often than not be more than happy to supply anyone who comes to their window, assuming that the request is reasonable, with whatever gear/circuit boards/components that the individuals want/need for their jobs. Circling back, this doesn't do much except remove interdepartmental interaction with Science as well as create an inflated need for resources to print whatever you need from the protolathe located within your department.

 

As for restricting R&D to Science and getting the reaction "Well, people are just going to do it more." Really that also is a flawed idea, the people that did it in the past will continue to do so for whatever reason they wish to justify while individuals who have never done so in the past will most likely shy away from stepping over that line, whether its added as Standard Operating Procedure that the Research Director must authorize any form of Research outside the department or we as Administrators consider the actions of the individual in question in violation of our Powergaming policy. In either case, the consequences outweigh the benefits  Comparing it to the "War on Drugs" is silly since it won't motivate anyone who wouldn't already have the motivation to do so which in this case is just a handful of people who, for whatever reason, decide its perfectly fine to create an entire R&D set-up.

 

That being said, I've seen legitimate cases where creating a separate Research and Development department in Engineering was beneficial to the Station as a whole since the original department was entirely unmanned for the majority of the round but, that's a rare case in which they were working towards achieving the Station Goal as opposed to the usual case of unlocking goodies and centralizing the power of their department by removing the need to interact with others.

 

 

[Dinarzad]

1 hour ago, Sihsse Zsak said:

Lets say we remove the concept of the ORM and have a Silo in which everyone is able to access these resources. Instead of having Robotics, Research and Development, and Engineering competing for such things, we've now got a protolathe in every department that needs outfitted with all the possible resources that could allow them to print what they want/need. Now we have Medical, Security, Supply, Service, Science, along with Engineering vying for resources wholly dependent upon the experience and whim of the miners assigned to the asteroid.

 

I might ask, how is that a bad thing?
As it stand right now, Mining frequently hits a poitn where they can have the ORM so impossibly stocked for materials that at around the 1 hour mark, they can fuck about on station an never need do their job ever again, barring some massive catastrophe. ((I myself have hit a point where we had over 500 of every single mineral, several thousand metal, glass and plasma and well over a hundred diamonds.))

If more resources get used by more departments then just Science then that's a GOOD thing. It means mining actually has a job and is a boon to every department beyond just Science.  Medical can pull out gold/silver for possible viruses, Engineering can reliably print out sheets of plasteel, etc. And it means Science doesn't get to loot the ORM an fuck off with your ENTIRE haul moments after depositing, so people stop shrieking at miners to get them things because Science stole it all for themselves when they only needed maybe half of it.

Similarly, I've seen science man the RnD console, be perfectly capable of hearing me, an simply ignore me or tell me to fuck off. Even as a miner asking for mining upgrades so I can get them more ore.  With Departmental lathes, that possibility is entirely removed. You need something? go to the lathe for your department that is restricted to blueprints you need (The Cargo lathe can't make AEGs for example) and just make it.  You want machine upgrades, Science still has to do that, but now at least, medical could print additional huds or their own surgical tool upgrades,etc.

The pros to the Ore silo and Departmental Protolathes VASTLY outweigh the cons.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Dinarzad

[Norwest]

3 hours ago, Sihsse Zsak said:

Departmental Protolathes and an ore silo....

Well lets start with the ore silo since that's the easier of the two. Public access to something like an ORM isn't going to solve any problem so much as create a new one, resources don't magically appear within it Miners deposit ore into the ORM to redeem for points. Lets say we remove the concept of the ORM and have a Silo in which everyone is able to access these resources. Instead of having Robotics, Research and Development, and Engineering competing for such things, we've now got a protolathe in every department that needs outfitted with all the possible resources that could allow them to print what they want/need. Now we have Medical, Security, Supply, Service, Science, along with Engineering vying for resources wholly dependent upon the experience and whim of the miners assigned to the asteroid.

 

What this will essentially do is create a massive demand for the resources needed to print whatever is accessible to the protolathe in their department while the supply remains entirely the same. A problem I'm sure that will be written off as "Well, we can just increase the amount of resources that get redeemed at the silo so there's plenty for everyone to go around." or perhaps we should "Open up the mining asteroid so that every department can mine for the resources they need." One of which negates the mechanic of upgrading so that there are more resources available as well as the miner's actual need to work themselves if the amount of resources they bring back is increased while the second one negates the need for the Mining sub-department entirely.

 

Departmental Protolathes is also a flawed concept since it still relies entirely on Research doing their jobs. This is of course, understanding that its just the protolathe itself and you're not throwing in a Deconstructive Analyzer and Circuit Imprinter into the bundle, you're still going to need Science to do the research and to update the servers before they become useful in any aspect. If you've already got a Scientist or two working on Research then there really isn't a need since I've seen scientists more often than not be more than happy to supply anyone who comes to their window, assuming that the request is reasonable, with whatever gear/circuit boards/components that the individuals want/need for their jobs. Circling back, this doesn't do much except remove interdepartmental interaction with Science as well as create an inflated need for resources to print whatever you need from the protolathe located within your department.

 

As for restricting R&D to Science and getting the reaction "Well, people are just going to do it more." Really that also is a flawed idea, the people that did it in the past will continue to do so for whatever reason they wish to justify while individuals who have never done so in the past will most likely shy away from stepping over that line, whether its added as Standard Operating Procedure that the Research Director must authorize any form of Research outside the department or we as Administrators consider the actions of the individual in question in violation of our Powergaming policy. In either case, the consequences outweigh the benefits  Comparing it to the "War on Drugs" is silly since it won't motivate anyone who wouldn't already have the motivation to do so which in this case is just a handful of people who, for whatever reason, decide its perfectly fine to create an entire R&D set-up.

 

That being said, I've seen legitimate cases where creating a separate Research and Development department in Engineering was beneficial to the Station as a whole since the original department was entirely unmanned for the majority of the round but, that's a rare case in which they were working towards achieving the Station Goal as opposed to the usual case of unlocking goodies and centralizing the power of their department by removing the need to interact with others.

 

 

To try and summarize the issues you're bringing up:

1. Limited supply of minerals.

2. Departmental Protolathes will still be dependent on Research doing their job.

3. Scientists are sometimes at the R&D desk to handle requests.

 

To respond to each of these in turn:

1. I'm not sure what evidence you're basing a lack of resources on, because the only times I've seen a sustained lack of resources is when Mining has had multiple traitors or been completely incompetent. Those incidents are functionally irrelevant to the question of an ore silo, because the issue is upstream of ore distribution. Miners usually end up goofing around on-station with teleportation jaunters or oodles of minebots by the 1-hour mark, because they've so oversupplied the ORM that there's more resources than the station could use.

The paradigm of mining supply is "feast or famine:" either the Miners are somewhat competent and rapidly stock the ORM with gobs of resources, or they're terrible for some reason or another and provide nothing. In both cases, distribution is not an issue. Even assuming that mining stocks were depleted, that logically implies that nearly everyone is getting the kit they needed. That's hardly a problem, is it?

2. Yes, I agree that departmental Protolathes will still require Research to do their job. I thought that was the idea, no? Aren't we supposed to be encouraging inter-departmental cooperation and the like?

3. Yes, Scientists are sometimes at the R&D desk. Believe me, they aren't there for all two hours of the shift. Even if someone had the stamina to sit through two hours in a crowded room, they'd be swarmed by oodles of requests - the Janitor wants a floor buffer, Medbay wants IMSes, Engineering wants loaded RPEDs - which are draining and largely un-rewarding to deal with. Why go through the effort of making someone have to do a deliberately-terrible job when you could just make department-specific Protolathes to take the bulk of the work off of them? Logically speaking, having departmental Protolathes would eliminate the regular requests like the ones mentioned above, and cut things down to either greytiders or someone with a very unusual request (an Engineer looking for a crew monitor, for instance). That means many fewer yells of "; SCIENTIST TO R&D I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR TEN MINUTES DAMNIT," and less-frustrating gameplay for everyone involved. I still don't really see where the issue is here.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Norwest

[Pennwick]

On 2/10/2019 at 11:10 PM, Norwest said:

The paradigm of mining supply is "feast or famine:" either the Miners are somewhat competent and rapidly stock the ORM with gobs of resources, or they're terrible for some reason or another and provide nothing. In both cases, distribution is not an issue. Even assuming that mining stocks were depleted, that logically implies that nearly everyone is getting the kit they needed. That's hardly a problem, is it?

Just wanted to say that in early parts of the shift resources are limited. We already sometimes get issues when Robotics or the mechanic get to the ORM first and drain all the materials leaving nothing for RnD. At least if Robotics takes it all you can complain to the RD but if engineering, medical, or the lawless tide get a hold of all the diamonds good luck getting any back. Incentivize other departments to get all grabby and I kind of feel that the researchers are going to get shafted. Even late round isn't completely safe. I've gone to restock on materials for robotics/RnD and had the ORM drained but diamond statues all over the station.