Should illegal implants be hidden from body scanners?

[Crazylemon]

 

So, I figured I might as well help bridge the gap between forums and github, and start linking gameplay tweaks from the latter to here.

 

The PR

 

So, this PR will tweak implants so that illegal ones don't show up in the body scanner, to reduce the likelihood of someone using that as a "validcheck". Thoughts?

 

[Keroman]

 

While I'm all for the idea of counteracting validhunting there should also be a way to counteract hidden implants, but it should be costly.

 

Maybe just make it so an non-upgraded scanner can't detect certain implants (lorewise they could just be described as "shielded" implants) but an upgraded scanner could absolutely detect them.

 

[Coldflame]

Implants being detected by scanners have never been raised as an issue, ever. Fixing problems which aren't there to create more problems is pointless.

[Fox McCloud]

 

While I'm all for the idea of counteracting validhunting there should also be a way to counteract hidden implants, but it should be costly..

 

You'd still be able to do an exploratory surgery to see if someone had an implant or not; that would still be a "check" and it would be relatively time consuming/"costly" enough that sec won't feel the need to build their own scanner and slam every suspect they come across into it.

 

My main problem with them being easily detectable:

 

- The general trend has been towards less antag checks, not more (cultists can counteract holy water, vamps are immune to things at full power, ling blood test removed, agent IDs that only the original person can use, etc).

- Vamps/Changelings have a wide array of very powerful abilities at their disposal; sec can't just throw them into a scanner to confirm this or not or see if a ling has night-vision or not.

- Uplink implants come at a premium and are TC inefficient (14 TC for 10 TC) specifically because they are supposed to be difficult to detect

- with the exception of the new storage implant, the only reason sec really has to remove an implant is so they can re-use it for themselves (which is illegal under space law anyway)

- Traitors can already pretty easily store things in undiscoverable location with the flatpack satchel if they want to.

 

[Dinarzad]

 

- Traitors can already pretty easily store things in undiscoverable location with the flatpack satchel if they want to.

 

While true, they also have to hide that satchel and return to it at a late date to retrieve the items within. It's not a permanent secret stash that is undetectable but accessible at will. It's a secret stash that you have to actually stash away and walk away from.

 

Because there's no reason NOT to get that particular item if implants are almost wholly undetectable. If you need to assassinate someone, stuff your tools in there, if you need to steal an item, stuff it in there and it's genuinely impossible to ever find, unless you do exploratory surgery on random body parts to find the implant.

 

Basically, the problem I have with it is that there's... no counter-play to it. The 'counter play' being surgery means Sec just starts randomly cutting traitors open to check for implants, which will go over like a fart in church, or they just sorta give up. They can't carve open every suspect when the CE's blueprints go missing etc.

 

There's gotta be SOME sort of middle ground between "Lol body scanner found it" and "I hid the Captain's Laser in a pocket dimension."

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

exploratory surgery on random body parts to find the implant.

 

For clarity, regardless of the outcome of whether or not implants show up on scanners or not, implants aren't going to be stored inside bodyparts anymore; just in the mob, generically.

 

[Plotron]

 

There's gotta be SOME sort of middle ground between "Lol body scanner found it" and "I hid the Captain's Laser in a pocket dimension."

Random searches near pods and shit will turn up nothing. But that was probably the case with the old compressed matter implant - except that it was bulkier to use.

 

Regarding implant removal - you remove the implants because they offer special abilities to the traitor, not to reuse them.

 

Overall I'm fine with implants being undetectable.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

- The general trend has been towards less antag checks, not more

It had been towards less spammy, easy to check, antag checks, not removal of said checks, like Holy water+Fire extinguishers.

 

Might as well leave my thought on here for those who don't wanna check the Git, I am against this as this makes Compressed Matter implants the #1 best tool, even better then Emags, to steal items. Why? Because once you get it, insert it into you and you can't ever know you have it. Traitors get complete immunity from Space Law outside of getting hit with Breaking and Entering or Tresspassing, because there is literally no way to tell you stole anything. Hell you can even insert the Emag after your done with it for good measure. All this will do is make security start taking every prisoner who was found to be tresspassing to Medbay for surgery to test it, and waste surgeons time.

 

I had an issue with Mindslaves too but appearently you cant deconvert from removing the implant to it's moot anywas?

 

[Shadeykins]

 

I'll take a pass.

 

Basically this provides a method to hide something from security, indefinitely, forever.

 

It also encourages Mary Sue behaviour because now everyone and their mother will learn chest surgery just for the sake of implant checking rather than leaving that to the actual surgeons. How many times is medical absolutely swarmed, anyways? Chances are that if security wants to check for an implant, medical is busy and they'll instead toss you on a roller bed and perform ghetto surgery on you just to find out - now the potential antag (or not) can deal with infections, injuries, probably broken bones (Ghetto is awful), and their implant is gone anyways all because security "had to check".

 

This increases the work that both security and medical have to do, whilst addressing an issue that is simply non-existent for antags in the first place.

 

If you, as an antag are being dragged to medical to check for implants it is because you have let slip that you have them. I have never, ever, EVER seen anyone taken to medical for an implant check, save for cortical stacks (which were removed), loyalty implants (when a secHUD is not available) and VERY OBVIOUS CASES where a mindslave is screaming about their master after just attacking 5 security officers in a mech.

 

I am however in favour of implants being cleanly labelled rather than just "Unknown body".

 

Make all the known implants have neat little labels, and all the illegal ones show up as unknown.

 

Not only does this solve the issue with bugs and not storing implants in organs, it does not have any knock-on effects whatsoever when compared against the existing system.

 

[Plotron]

 

Might as well leave my thought on here for those who don't wanna check the Git, I am against this as this makes Compressed Matter implants the #1 best tool, even better then Emags, to steal items. Why? Because once you get it, insert it into you and you can't ever know you have it. Traitors get complete immunity from Space Law outside of getting hit with Breaking and Entering or Tresspassing, because there is literally no way to tell you stole anything. Hell you can even insert the Emag after your done with it for good measure.

It's problematic. Would that be the case with the old compressed implants?

 

[Earthdivine]

 

-snip-.

It's problematic. Would that be the case with the old compressed implants?

Yes and no. Old ones only stored one item, had to buy the implant WHEN you have the item, and were one time only, so yes it is essentially the same thing, but much more bulkier and convoluted. This would allow someone to buy the tools they need, store them, take them out to steal the item, then store it AND possibly their tool, depends on what was stolen, and not be able to be caught unless they were dragged to surgery.

 

Also I should make this noticed, this wasn't removed for "checking for valids" like dragging to the Chapel, its so traitors weren't immediatly screwed for getting a disease or broken bone after they bought an implant.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

It's problematic. Would that be the case with the old compressed implants?

 

Compressed were far worse, actually, Plotron. You scanned the item, it went into the implant; if the implant were removed, it would be in the implant, permanently; you couldn't remove it from the implant because there wasn't a way to get the implant back inside someone---someone who used compressed with a traitor item? You're never getting the item back unless they want you to.

 

Storage? If you do remove the implant it's going to eject all of its items.

 

[Plotron]

 

All this will do is make security start taking every prisoner who was found to be tresspassing to Medbay for surgery to test it, and waste surgeons time.

 

People will get mad, everyone will scream shitcurity and the NT Rep will call ERT to stop the riots.

someone who used compressed with a traitor item? You're never getting the item back unless they want you to.

Good to know it was worse in this regard.

 

[FalseIncarnate]

 

I spitballed a concept internally among the coders, and am re-posting it here for feedback and consideration. However, this is NOT a promise of implementation, but rather a point of discussion related to the topic at hand.

 

The concept is that medical scanners would be unable to identify or even locate any implants that are not Nanotrasen-standard issue at round start. This means Death Alarms, Loyalty Implants, Chem / Tracking and the incredibly rare Exile Implant would be visible on the scanner, as Nanotrasen actually stocks the station with these routinely, and thus has their data in all the medical systems. However, any Syndicate implant would avoid detection and identification as the system simply isn't able to identify it due to .

 

However, should such Syndicate technology be located and confiscated, it can be deconstructed and analyzed by science (or maybe medical or security have a special machine for this) to update the medical scanners' firmware to properly reveal and identify that type of implant. Obviously, in order to do this, a working implant must be recovered (or "donated") and would be destroyed, giving security a valid use for confiscated equipment that would not be in violation of Space Law, and would actually aid them in locating other traitors in a non-meta way.

 

This avoids the potential of a random doctor reporting someone 10 minutes into the round because the scanner detected a "foreign body" or whatever the exact readout was, but offers a co-operative counterplay to the stealth offered by implants. In effect, a given Syndicate Implant will remain undetectable to the scanner until after one has been found and analyzed, at which point all scanners become capable of revealing that given type. By that point, you already know that there are traitors aboard the station, since one was stupid enough to get caught with his implants anyways.

 

Again, this is NOT a promise of implementation, but simply an offering of a concept for furthering this discussion in a civilized and productive manner.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

I think that's a healthy compromise.

 

Upgraded advanced scanners can detect illicit implants.

 

[Dinarzad]

I find that compromise agreeable, I'd be really okay with that if that ended up implemented.

[Plotron]

 

The thing is - rarely you see multiple implants of the same kind in a round.

And such implants aren't even recovered. It's going to be harder now because you will need an empty implant case for it to work - otherwise the implant gets dropped and disappears entirely.

 

[Professor Cupcake]

 

 

I am however in favour of implants being cleanly labelled rather than just "Unknown body".

 

Make all the known implants have neat little labels, and all the illegal ones show up as unknown.

 

I concur.

Just to add to this: the term "unidentified foreign body" would fit better (actual medical term).

 

[tigercat2000]

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/3330

[BiberDark]

 

"unidentified foreign body"

 

This is the description of an alien inside you, if i remember correctly.

 

Maybe "unknown traces of technology found" or "Unknown Object. No information in the database" ( with Adv. Scanners who can detect them.)