Quakes72 Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Hello Everyone. Anyone who has played more than one round in the security department will realize that our current station law has many gaps in it. The interesting aspect of the security staff on the station is how each round the way the laws are seen and upheld are just slightly different. This aspect is a result of the space law in SS13 always requiring a bit of interpretation as to what crimes fit where and makes playing a Warden or HOS much more enjoyable. I want to begin with an experience I witnessed as a ghost that I feel clearly shows a gap in our servers law then I would like to suggest a handful of laws to get this in motion. The Gaps 3 Days prior to this post I observed arguably the biggest gap in our stations laws: >Security officer walking near the escape lobby >Two clowns rush to officer >Officer disarmed continuously by one clown while the other removes his head set and cable cuffs the officer >Clowns now have removed the officer's belt, headset, and backpack. >Clowns place all of the officers items into his back pack then put the bag back on his back (THIS IS IMPORTANT). >Clowns drag officer into maintenance near the old bar and proceed to honk him for over 10 minutes. >Clowns put officer in the corner of the old bar, lube the entire room, and leave him there to un-cuff himself. As I saw this go down I sent a message to the Admin staff online at the time describing the event. I received a rather alarming message from an Admin. He explained to me that the clowns (though on the verge of griefing) did no real harm and as a matter of fact managed to go without even breaking a single Space Law rule. They had not stolen anything from the officer because they put it all into his backpack and they had not caused him physical harm in any way. Is that scenario what we want our security staff to be forced to deal with? I think not Over the course of the last few weeks I have been collecting ideas and opinions on new laws. All persons who mentioned laws will remain anonymous for this post. Please note not all are mine (though I wish i could take credit for some of the great ideas) __________________________________________________________________________________________________ Disrupting Station Work Environment (Law would fit into both minor and medium and then anything larger is sabotage) Description: Any action deemed to have a significant hampering effect on station productivity. Example (minor): A Robotic Engineer refusing to share the robotics lab with the second Robotic Engineer Example (medium): An Engineer welding the doors leading to the bar closed (or the example with the officer above). Why?: This law will help security punish those crew who are causing problems around the station without having to wait for something large enough to consider sabotage (will also eliminate the security officer incident). These two laws are slightly less specific so that they may be used to cover a wider array of issues. Insubordination (Law would fit into the minor crime section) Description: Directly disobeying an order given by a valid commanding officer. Example: Captain orders that the CE returns from the engineering station to help with the needs of the main station and the CE refuses to return. Why?: This law will give the commanding staff a bit more of an ability to control the other members of their department and will allow heads of staff to punish staff members who fail to comply without going as far as a demotion. Insubordination With Consequence (This law fits into the medium section) Description: Directly disobeying an order given by a valid commanding officer which results in harm to the crew or station. Example: Officer 1 is ordered by the HOS to return his laser to the armory. The officer does not do so, is disarmed, has the laser stolen, and then the laser is used to kill the CMO. Why?: This law serves to punish crew more severely than normal Insubordination and helps to encourage crew to listen to the orders of their command staff. Abuse of Post (A medium law) Description: Using the powers or tools of one's job in a malicious way. Example: The HOP gives himself an all access ID card so that he may act as a security officer. Example 2: The Genetics lab gives out powers to random crew members without permission. Example 3: A cargo bay worker orders crates of weapons, gloves, and armor. Note: Currently "theft" covers this cargo issue but it should be changed so that this new law covers it. Why?: Security will now be able to enforce a moderate level of responsibility among the crew. This will help punish those who use their jobs in ways that they should not. Mistreatment Of Organics (a low [or maybe medium, not too sure] crime) Description: Damage or destruction of any non-malicious lifeforms. Example: The security staff kills Xenos that are locked inside the Xeno-bio lab. Example 2: Someone kills one of the many station pets without good reason. Example 3: Someone mistreats a dead body such as a Doctor leaving it in the hallway, a Robotic Engineer leaving it on the floor of the Robotics lab for an extended period of time, or a Doctor cutting a body apart to use things like its limbs without permission. Why?: This law helps to ensure the safety of everyone's favorite station pets and ensures that the bodies of dead crew members are properly taken care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTSAM Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 >mistreatment of organics Killing pets are covered in Vandalism and being a dick with bodies are covered by something already I sure hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quakes72 Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 >mistreatment of organics Killing pets are covered in Vandalism and being a dick with bodies are covered by something already I sure hope. I see that the pets are already covered but currently the law concerning dead bodies is a stretch. In order to charge someone for mistreating a dead person you would have to argue that the body is station property. I think we need a law covering that. Furthermore this law was recommended to me for this post after the player witnessed the HOS kill a xeno who was locked away in a xeno containment pen and was cooperating with the xenobiologist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTSAM Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 sorry im sleep deprived and barely read through it entirely disregard me aaaaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tastyfish Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Kidnapping is currently not a crime at all; I hope I don't have to explain why this is an issue. Edit: I'm pretty sure your first example is Assault of an Officer, as it lists disarming and grabbing officers as a case. Second edit: A lot of those proposed laws in the OP should probably just result in disciplinary action from their head (up to being fired) before sec should get involved. Edited January 7, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldflame Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Here's a few I'd like to see: Battery- Unauthorized physical contact or force resulting in no harm to the victim; generally only to be enforced in cases of excessive force that doesn't qualify for an assault charge. (following someone around in disarm intent, tabling people for no reason, generally being a dick whilst staying shy of an assault charge. Excessive slipping falls under this.) Disruption of Order- To intentionally attempt to interfere with the efforts of command staff or security to maintain an orderly work environment; the act of antagonizing authority figures for being authority figures. Trying to convince security you're an antag to get arrested and complain, interfering with sec without falling under A&A, spending the entire round calling shitcurity and trying to rally people against sec for no reason, defying the head of your department because you don't want to follow orders all fall under this. (sort of falls under inciting a riot but it's impossible to actually brig someone under that with the way it's worded.) Harassment- To single out a specific crew member, and repeatedly, intentionally, and maliciously attempt to inconvenience them, even if within the confines of the law otherwise. Following someone around for a halfhour doing everything in your power to stop them having fun or doing their job doesn't improve the game for either of the people involved, but it's one of the things that sits just outside the jurisdiction of space law so sec can't step in. Repeated Disruption- Having been brigged on at least two earlier occasions for similar crimes, the suspect fails to make any effort to improve their behavior to be in-line with space law. (being a shitter and getting arrested three times for breaking into places and stealing things should get you put in perma or in a cell for a long time.) Kidnapping is currently not a crime at all; I hope I don't have to explain why this is an issue. Edit: I'm pretty sure your first example is Assault of an Officer, as it lists disarming and grabbing officers as a case. kidnapping falls under assault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tastyfish Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Kidnapping is currently not a crime at all; I hope I don't have to explain why this is an issue. Edit: I'm pretty sure your first example is Assault of an Officer, as it lists disarming and grabbing officers as a case. kidnapping falls under assault I was told one round that it isn't so I'd like a clarification on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullyBBurnalot Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Kidnapping isn't technically in Space Law. Personally, I classify it under assault. I'll get to work on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingPhilipIII Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I personally support a lot of the laws that have been suggested in here. I've had so many instances where I was the HoS and I get officers complaining about the crew harrassing them and there is nothing they can do. Or trouble makers who go around being assholes for the whole round but still don't fall into a crime, so we can't punish them. I had a round where someone ran around slipping security officers in the brig and nobody could remove him. Aside from entering without permission we couldn't charge him for more than a minor crime (Because slipping people with bananas and soap is !FUN!) despite holding up three officers for five minutes before someone finally managed to tase his ass and cuff him. More recently I've had instances as the CMO where my doctors outright refused to leave rooms they weren't allowed in or were harrassing the geneticist or some such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keroman Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I had a round where someone ran around slipping security officers in the brig and nobody could remove him. Aside from entering without permission we couldn't charge him for more than a minor crime (Because slipping people with bananas and soap is !FUN!) despite holding up three officers for five minutes before someone finally managed to tase his ass and cuff him. Trespass in any Security Area (yes, the hallway just fore of the brig lobby is a Security Area) is considered Major Trespass and carries a 15 minute brig sentence, potentially more of the trespasser is suspected of being there for malicious reasons or as an Enemy of the Corp. Most officers don't resort to brigging people who enter that particular hallway. They usually flash/baton cuff, and drag 'em out and get called shitcurity for their troubles despite their lenience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingPhilipIII Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Is it really? I need to pick a fight with that magistrate then. (Names will not be named.) But my point being, there are instances where people do this ridiculous stuff and nothing happens to them aside from a baton to the gut and five minutes in a cell tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadeykins Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Battery is probably never going to be added. There's been numerous polls, plenty of OOC talk, and the bulk of people agree that it should be in there as we had it before. The most we got is a mild change to the assault classification. So yeah, we're probably not going to ever get battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tastyfish Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Battery is probably never going to be added. There's been numerous polls, plenty of OOC talk, and the bulk of people agree that it should be in there as we had it before. The most we got is a mild change to the assault classification. So yeah, we're probably not going to ever get battery. We can always dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyet Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Officer disarmed continuously by one clown while the other removes his head set and cable cuffs the officer Should qualify for assault (for the spam disarms), or theft (for removal of gear - putting it back in their pack afterwards does not negate the crime of taking it off them in the first place). Not sure if it actually does, but it should. Clowns drag officer into maintenance near the old bar and proceed to honk him for over 10 minutes. Should qualify as kidnapping, which is generally charged as assault. Actually, given the duration and the fact it was done to an officer who presumably had work to do protecting the crew, I'd give the clowns Assault of an Officer for this, complete with a 10-15 minute brig sentence, and a request to the HoP to demote the clowns. Clowns put officer in the corner of the old bar, lube the entire room, and leave him there to un-cuff himself. Same as previous. Clowns should be telling jokes, making balloon animals in RP, and generally seeking to make the crew happier. Clowns should only slip people rarely, or if they are also an antag. A clown who runs around slipping people repeatedly, thus making people angry instead of happy, is a bad clown, and should probably be demoted to civilian or trained in the art of proper clowning. Being a clown is not an easy job, nor is it a license to harass people or create slipping hazards at key choke-points. Being a clown is actually more like being security than anything else, in that both revolve around creating certain states in other people. Security want people to feel safe, clowns want people to feel happy. We can argue about space law all day, but IMHO this clown was breaking the "don't be a dick" server rule, as well as just being a really bad clown. Changing space law isn't really the best way to address either of those problems. However, if space law is all you have, then you can use it that way. Example (minor): A Robotic Engineer refusing to share the robotics lab with the second Robotic Engineer http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Sta ... _Dismissal #7: "A crew member creating an abusive and hostile work environment may be dismissed or demoted. This is to be judged by the Department Head and HoP." AKA: the RD should confer with the HoP, and assuming they agree, have the robo demoted out of science. This is far more of a substantial punishment than a short brig timer, and far better a resolution for the other robo who no longer has to put up with their attitude. Example (medium): An Engineer welding the doors leading to the bar closed (or the example with the officer above). http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Space_law 307 Sabotage: To hinder the work of the crew or station through malicious actions. "Deliberately releasing N2O, bolting doors, disabling the power network, and constructing barricades are but some of many means of sabotage. For more violent forms, see Grand Sabotage." I assume welding a door shut is treated the same as bolting the door or constructing a barricade. Even if not, you could make a good case for vandalism when someone is welding shut the door on a key choke point of the station. Also: http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Sta ... _Dismissal "A medium or higher crime may be grounds for dismissal, at the department head's discretion." If you want to be strict about it, an Eng who bolts or welds shut the bar doors could be considered to be sabotaging the station, getting up to 15 minutes and a demotion to civilian (with CE permission) for doing so. Description: Directly disobeying an order given by a valid commanding officer. http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Sta ... _Dismissal #6: "Refusal to follow reasonable and legal orders from relevant department head is grounds for dismissal. Their status as reasonable and legal is to be judged by the HoP or Captain." Complete demotion from a department (with the corresponding loss of gear, access, and probable public hazing) is probably a greater punishment than a 10-20 minute brig sentence. Example: Captain orders that the CE returns from the engineering station to help with the needs of the main station and the CE refuses to return. http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Sta ... _Dismissal #6: "Refusal to follow reasonable and legal orders from relevant department head is grounds for dismissal. Their status as reasonable and legal is to be judged by the HoP or Captain." The captain can issue a direct order to the CE to return to the station and help fix it. Refusal to obey such an order from the Captain is grounds for the Captain to have the CE demoted to civilian. As civilian, they would not have access to the eng station, and even being there would be presumed trespassing. Description: Directly disobeying an order given by a valid commanding officer which results in harm to the crew or station. http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Sta ... _Dismissal "Failure to follow SoP causing harm to crew requires dismissal, and brig time." Example: Officer 1 is ordered by the HOS to return his laser to the armory. The officer does not do so, is disarmed, has the laser stolen, and then the laser is used to kill the CMO. http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Space_law Code 303 manslaughter "To unintentionally kill someone through negligent, but not malicious, actions." - on the grounds that failure to secure your security gear is negligent. Example: The HOP gives himself an all access ID card so that he may act as a security officer. Giving themselves an all-access ID without captain's authorization is code 308, theft. They're obtaining something they are not authorized to have. That's a major crime, and definitely grounds for demotion with the approval of their supervisor (the captain). Also, "Failure to follow SoP may be grounds for dismissal, at the Department Head's discretion." and "Failure to follow SoP causing harm to crew requires dismissal, and brig time.". Essentially, the Captain has free reign to demote and have brigged any HoP who makes their ID all-access. They won't always do it (there are many situations where an all-access HoP can save the day) - but according to SoP/Space Law, they're perfectly entitled to demote/brig for this. Example 2: The Genetics lab gives out powers to random crew members without permission. http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Geneticist "Genetic modifications may only be handed out with CMO authorization. Consent from the patient is to be given in all cases. Failure to do so is grounds for immediate dismissal, and possible brig time." Any geneticist doing this faces dismissal at minimum, and dismissal with brig time (e.g for manslaughter, if their powers are used to kill) for their actions which result in crew harm/death. The wiki is inconsistent in that it says the RD rules over genetic research (with the CMO ruling over cloning) - but the CMO has to authorize the distribution of powers. Many (most) people consider this incorrect, and think the RD (who has authority over genetic research) is the person who controls powers distribution. Either way, giving out powers to crew members without approval from the appropriate head is illegal and worthy of serious punishment. Could space law be improved? Yes. Sure. I'd love to see, for example: A note that clowns are not immune from space law, and going around kidnapping people / creating hazards by slipping will get you brigged and demoted. Being a clown is not an excuse to screw around, slip everyone, and call that 'funny'. A bigger modifier than -25% for perps who co-operate with security, maybe up to -75% with warden/hos discretion. A bigger modifier than "reset timer" for escape attempts by prisoners, e.g. "reset timer or +10 minutes, whichever is more", and changing it from "fleeing confinement" to "attempting to flee", so they can be charged with it even if they're not successful. "Aiding and abetting" be made a major crime by itself, rather than a modifier, with the sentence being "the same as the original criminal, 10 minutes minimum", and a specific note that "stealing a prisoner from sec" counts for this. I have seen too many cases where people drag people away from sec, and are shocked to be brigged for aiding and abetting. The fact this is very much a crime should be clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sothangel Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I would very much like it if civil and legal things were kept apart. You're being a dick and goofing off at work? Shouldn't be security's problem - That's a civil matter. Your boss fired you and you're not returning your stuff, or getting your job changed at the HOP? This now moves into theft, and becomes a legal issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tastyfish Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I would very much like it if civil and legal things were kept apart. You're being a dick and goofing off at work? Shouldn't be security's problem - That's a civil matter. Your boss fired you and you're not returning your stuff, or getting your job changed at the HOP? This now moves into theft, and becomes a legal issue. I agree, and if the boss isn't doing anything about it, that's partially what the IAA or NT Rep (as appropriate to the situation) is for to nudge proper civil action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayZ Me Trolling Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Just to quickly make something clear, what happened to the clowns after this whole thing went down? Did they get arrested? Normally they'd get arrested for assault since well, it's assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quakes72 Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Just to quickly make something clear, what happened to the clowns after this whole thing went down? Did they get arrested? Normally they'd get arrested for assault since well, it's assault. After a long time of debating with the HOS, Warden, and IAA the clowns were not charged. We had all been playing that round following space law to the letter in the most literal way possible. We all at the beginning of the round decided via LOOC to see how that would work. Nothing the clowns did was considered illegal under the law. I have heard many of you on this post say to charge the clowns with assault for either the spam disarming or the kidnapping. While many officer and Heads of Security will do this it is not mentioned in our space law. People have to remember here when talking about the station law that you work for arguably the most powerful corporation ever. They have the right to charge you with EOC (enemy of the corporation, a law clearly made by someone on NT payrole), take you into security, and execute you without any worry of consequence. A company with that much power doesn't care if you think that security has too much power. A company like that would do everything they possibly could to make sure their stations run without disturbance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quakes72 Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 @tzo Let us start this by saying your reply was beautiful. Really. A work of art. My issue with what you have said is how the heads of staff have currently no option but to demote their staff. If the station has one chemist, that chemist barks at the CMO just one two many times, then has to be demoted would make for a station without a chemist. Now you could argue that the CMO would have to take over for the chemist but what happens when the medbay is busy or a virus starts up and the station has no virology team. My point being that a head of staff should have something to threaten/punish his or her staff with other than just the idea of demotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kemoT Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 snip Disarms count as assault, it is even specifically listed (302 assault on officer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Disarms count as assault of an officer. Not normal assault, if I recall correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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