Remove Flashstun for borgs

[BiberDark]

Flashstun is a winbutton for every person if the fight a borg it is not even funny. Change it at least the sec borgs should have stun immunity ( There are special disablers for that, should cost you extra not a stun for everybody). You are permastunned in the first moment you see an antag. Yeah i know how that sounds . But this is an issue not just now, it is since a long time.

Edited May 13, 2017 by BiberDark

[Fox McCloud]

So you're recommending removing one of literal three methods of incapacitating a borg (and one of those is RD+Captain only)?

 

This will make borgs even better anti-antags than they already are and will pretty much mean that if you're an antag, there's borgs about, and you don't have an EMP, you're going to get screwed by one.

 

The duration may need to be altered a bit, but removing it completely, especially from secborgs, is going to genreate a lot of problems.

[ProperPants]

Perhaps the flash immunity could be an upgrade that can be made in robotics for sec borgs only. I'm not sure what tech and material requirements such an upgrade should have, but it could be similar to the rapid disabler cooling upgrade that already exists. It could be more expensive since it's probably stronger.

Or, like Fox said, the timing could be altered for all borgs, and robotics could have an upgrade that drastically reduces it for sec borgs, as opposed to total immunity. I can't remember at this moment, but I think getting flashed unequips modules. If so, having the stun time reduced to 1 second (for example) for an upgraded borg would still give antags a chance if modules are unequipped. If they are not unequipped, it might be a good trade off to make that happen.

Edited May 13, 2017 by ProperPants
Clarity

[ZN23X]

10 minutes ago, Fox McCloud said:

This will make borgs even better anti-antags than they already are

...and harder to deal with as antags, when emagged.

[Tinfoiltophat]

>literally one way to stop a borg from chasing/killing you without EMPing it or access to an R&D console

>no is OP let's remove it

 

[Spacemanspark]

No. They are fine where they are now.

[BiberDark]

There is no counter to that. You are stunned longer than it takes to flash you again. After that your battery is removed our you are destroyed.

This is no way fair. And if your are say the disabler is only rd and captain then change that and give them some guns in the armory.

Or at least reduce the stun time by 50 % so the cant stun you again before you can walk away. 

Most time it is you are stuned and then you battery was removed and you are lost in maintainance forever. At least let us still walk but not able to use modules.

Quote

@Tinfoiltophat

>literally one way to stop a borg from chasing/killing you without EMPing it or access to an R&D console

>no is OP let's remove it

 

I wounder how you would find it if you, the antag would be disabled so easily. Then it would be overpowered....

Edited May 13, 2017 by BiberDark

[Tinfoiltophat]

43 minutes ago, BiberDark said:

I wounder how you would find it if you, the antag would be disabled so easily. Then it would be overpowered....

They can. It's called a stun baton and zipties.

[Sothangel]

Considering that removing the flash capability (Does the AOE using flash in-hand stun?) leaves EMP as the only reliable counter to a borg, this severely impacts one of the most popular races, IPCs. Emagging borgs would basically be impossible without a flash, too. I can't agree with these suggestions, far too much.

[EvadableMoxie]

7 hours ago, BiberDark said:

There is no counter to that. You are stunned longer than it takes to flash you again. After that your battery is removed our you are destroyed.

 

So how do you feel about an organic being killed with no chance to fight back by a bar of soap? 

 

[BiberDark]

This is pretty dumb, too.

[DeadBySmiley]

Tottaly removing the ability to stun borgs is very dumb. Instead the time borg is flashed should be reduced to 75% or even 50% of the time it is now. Since right now if you get flashed once whoever flashed you has enough time to litteraly turn you into scrap and you cant do anything.

[GelatinousGlob]

Without the stun there is no way possible for even a group of civilians to take on a borg. Even with 4 people you can't toolbox a borg down before it kills or arrests you all because you can't disarm his weapons. Maybe if borgs were weaker to certain physical attacks it would work but I doubt borg players would like that.

[BiberDark]

They should atleast be not able to open the borg cover and remove the battery. And i mentioned it, maybe flash disables weapon systems but not movement, or slows you down.

[Anoonki]

You are aware that disablers don't effect borgs right? They do stamina damage to people and are basically spammy, infinite range tasers that take a couple hits to stun.

There's only three ways to "stun" a borg without antag specific powers, EMP, Flash/flashbang, and the computer that only roboticists, the Captain, and the Research director can actually use. And seeing as a flash is basically a stunbaton but for borgs, it's certainly not insane.

And to answer Sothangel, AoE flashing with a flash won't actually stun a borg.

 

A real way to nerf flashes/buff borgs (without making them unbeatable) would be to not make it unequip all your modules when you get flash'd, so you do actually have a chance to fight the flash stunlock if you get loose of it for a few seconds.

[necaladun]

I could perhaps see lowering the timer, but considering borgs are immune to 90%+ of things that organics are stunned by, they need to have things that stun them. Stunlocking a borg with a flash lasts as long as the flash. And stunlocking them still requires you to do something in the meantime, whether it's remove their cell or toolbox them or whatever.

A properly equipped antag being able to take out a borg 1v1 is WAD. Antags are meant to be able to do that. They work by themselves usually, where as a borg has the whole of security, the AI, etc, to help them.

 

[GunDOS]

I personally don't see any need to change borgs in this manner, to reinburse the point I have made in a number of threads of this type.

Borgs are there to assist their departments, not run them. They are not super invincible sec. They are not super doctors. They will never be either. Borgs are already powerful, with their all access and their invulnerability to space and fire/pressure/toxin damage. They also can be given some very powerful manoeuvrability upgrades. They don't need a buff in this aspect. And that's my opinion.

[CPTCoffee]

On 5/13/2017 at 3:43 PM, BiberDark said:

There is no counter to that. You are stunned longer than it takes to flash you again. After that your battery is removed our you are destroyed.

This is no way fair. And if your are say the disabler is only rd and captain then change that and give them some guns in the armory.

Or at least reduce the stun time by 50 % so the cant stun you again before you can walk away. 

Most time it is you are stuned and then you battery was removed and you are lost in maintainance forever. At least let us still walk but not able to use modules.

I wounder how you would find it if you, the antag would be disabled so easily. Then it would be overpowered....

Most people can only get their hands on one flash since it's mostly restricted to security. Toxins and chem can make more but again, it's difficult. Right now it should stay the way it is. 

[Varlun]

On 5/15/2017 at 4:28 AM, Saul Argon said:

They are not super doctors.

We've talked about this.

On 5/6/2017 at 7:36 PM, Varlun said:

Medical borgs are SUPPOSED to be super doctors, dude. They give up so much in order to excel at a specific role.

I kinda wish you would give up on that train of thought. Non-borgs are VERSATILE. Borgs give up this versatility in order to excel at something specific. A medical doctor, for example, could grab any weapon they wanted and suddenly be able to kill more efficiently than a borg ever could. Human doctors, for another example, have access to every chemical that can be made. Advanced things such as synth flesh which are amazing. Mediborg can only use the 4 chemicals in their hypospray. Cyborgs have infinite Saline-Glucose, sure, but it's really really slow to heal. Mediborgs have a single burn and trauma kit which has the same number of uses as normal ones, before we need to resupply at a charge station. A human doctor can keep SEVERAL of these kits in their backpack. And please don't forget that human doctors are typically chilling right there in medbay, where they have easy access to additional supplies, not to mention the cryo tubes and sleepers. Meanwhile, I as a Mediborg typically act as a super Paramedic. Always watching the crew monitor, if someone gets injured or dies, I'll rush to them using my all access. So it's pretty frustrating to have an extremely limited number of charges on those burn/trauma kits. If you ask me, Mediborgs can stand to be buffed a fair amount. This has inspired me to make another thread, so keep an eye out for that.

Edit: I ended up making FOUR threads, lol.

Anyway, as for the thread topic. I definitely don't think security borgs should have the stun removed. Maybe an upgrade, as others have mentioned, that would reduce the duration. But flashes are basically the only counter to borgs so it would be pretty dumb to remove it.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Varlun

[necaladun]

In combat, a medical borg is pretty scary actually. A doctor running at you with a weapon can be disarmed, stunned, stopped behind a door they don't have access to, have their bones broken, etc. They're one of the more scary validhunting borgs there actually, due to the circular saw.

A few QoL changes might be nice, but I don't see medborgs as underpowered at all. I think you need to change your expectations and playstyle, rather than request the code to change to accommodate them.

[Regen]

Removing 1/3 of the weapons you can reliably use against a borg is ludicrous, this is a textbook example of "I ded pls nerf"

Humans can be beaten to death just the same with a stun baton, except they have tons of other weaknesses, for instance getting peppersprayed in the face, harmbatoned, tasered, drugged, they are vulnerable to chemicals, they need to breathe, can break bones, need a suit to survive in a zero pressure environment etc.

"But you can be permastunned by a flash!!"
Well you can also be permastunned by a stunbaton, as well as it serving as a reliable blunt weapon to beat you to death with, it also can be recharged, whereas a flash is a non-rechargeable resource that has a finite amount of uses before being destroyed.