IC Disability and Command Role Complaint

[KingPhilipIII]

4 minutes ago, SomanB said:

There's been quite the argument about Para going less and less RP,  and to me, this just reinforces the idea that game mechanics are more important than roleplay.

While I agree with most of your statement, we are playing a game, and at it's very essence mechanics will always come before RP. It's possible to RP with someone that's in perfect health (Another thing. You're on an advanced station full of technology and your healthcare is literally free. If someone really does show promise as a leader and a head of staff, it would be trivial to patch them up, restore their senses, etc.) but it's potentially round ending when you put a deaf, mute retard in charge of something capable of devouring the entire station without proper communication ("Hey turn off the PA containment isn't up! Hello?! Hello?! OH GOD THE ENGINE IS LOO-")

I personally think this is a perfectly acceptable change, because outside of that extreme I just put forward it can be annoying to account for someone else's disabilities, especially if you're there to play the game your way and their RP is hampering the department.

[Kyet]

56 minutes ago, SomanB said:

From the RP perspective, it's downright silly.  "Hello Muteguy McSilent, you can't be HoS on our station full of technology that enables nonverbal communication. Please be nice to Stumpy Nolegs, HoS."

A HoS in a wheelchair can still communicate with their team, keep things organized, and generally manage.

A HoS who can't talk.... can't.

 

[Jovaniph]

From my OP. I already recognized that playing as HoS or Captain can be a difficult role to play as a mute. The debate being security officers has been back and forth presenting good and bad arguments from both sides.

Other than that... Stay within the topic please and keep things civil.

[The Respected Man]

I'll throw in my opinion because i play head roles allot. 

Mute HoP is fine by me, their job is to alter access to ID cards and speech is not exactly a prerequisite. 

Mute captain starts to become an issue but i see the Captain as a figurehead for the most part. All they have to do is make sure the departments have a head of staff and a competent one at that, the blueshield or HoP can handle announcements on behalf. I can see a mute getting that done. 

 

Mute HoS is a SERIOUS issue. Speech is MOST of the job. Coordinating security, making sure the departments are watched over and protected and training officers who are new to the job. 

This REQUIRES speech and Head of Security is an action role where you will be facing all sorts of monstrosities and the bad guys do love to disable telecomms (and therefore the PDAs too). 

 

TL;DR Mute HoP is fine, mute captain is meh... Mute HoS is FUCK NO

Edited October 23, 2017 by The Respected Man

[Jovaniph]

I would also like to mention that this all seems very black and white.

Being the HoS, Captain, or even Security presents a challenge that is difficult for me in general. I don't care if you make it a rule for them, that's fine. But things like, for example, the Research Director...Let's talk about those jobs for a moment. We already have somewhat of an agreement with other command roles that can be a problem.

A mute Research Director is not a problem. I've done it extremely well and more capable than those who do talk along with CE and CMO for that matter.

I'm in favor of a middle ground here. Let's not make it so every command role take the hit. Not "well if you can't be mute HoS, you can't be mute Command". Lets present the problem for one role at a time. I mean, since when did command give a shit about the opinions of CMO,CE,RD or even communicate with them?

Edited October 23, 2017 by Jovaniph

[Kyet]

The CE has important things they need to be able to communicate. Things like "SINGULO LOOSE, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES". Or "EVERYONE LOOK FOR A POWER SINK". PDA is not an acceptable substitute for radio in this case, since they're things the whole crew needs to be aware of, and the CE cannot count on either their office or the bridge consoles to be intact/functional during these events. Also, they're time sensitive. The whole station can be shut down or destroyed if these messages don't reach the crew in a timely manner.

The CMO has similar communication duties with regards to things like a deadly virus, such as brain rot, which can easily kill scores of crew if handled badly.

The RD... well, Science is the department of things that emit deadly lasers, catch fire, explode, lay eggs, and/or turn green. There are any number of emergencies that could arise in Science which the crew would need a public warning about. I still regularly see monsters running down the hallways because someone messed up with the EXPERIMENTOR. The RD needs to be able to communicate that stuff. They can't always prevent their staff from being incompetent and creating massively dangerous things, but at least they can warn the crew when monsters are rampaging down the halls.

The HoP... has a good chance of becoming Acting Captain. I'd say in perhaps the majority of shifts, the Captain is out of action (dead, in surgery, cryoed, out of radio contact, whatever) for at least some of the shift. For that reason alone, everything that can be said about Captain applies to the HoP too. Including all the requirements that they be able to communicate, etc.

Edited October 24, 2017 by tzo

[KingPhilipIII]

1 hour ago, tzo said:

 Science is the department of things that emit deadly lasers, catch fire, explode, lay eggs, and/or turn green.

Quotable things. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by KingPhilipIII

[Ansari]

1. Being mute impair you from performing reliable & urgent communication
2. Urgent communication is necessary for any command and control roles. I.e. head. This can also extend to security officer reasonably. 
3. Being mute is easily fixable in this setting and therefore it is a pure choice.
4. Even if 3. didn't apply, NT (Or RL organization) would not rationally hire anyone mute for a position that require urgent communication.
5. One could in fact argue that since we're on McTeslaAndTraitorAndScienceExplosion station, anyone onboard the station would require urgent communication
6. It would therefore be reasonable to assume that NT would not even hire anyone mute-as-a-choice in the first place.

It is only reasonable that mute people are not allowed on command & security roles.

[Jovaniph]

3 hours ago, tzo said:

The CE has important things they need to be able to communicate. Things like "SINGULO LOOSE, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES". Or "EVERYONE LOOK FOR A POWER SINK". PDA is not an acceptable substitute for radio in this case, since they're things the whole crew needs to be aware of, and the CE cannot count on either their office or the bridge consoles to be intact/functional during these events. Also, they're time sensitive. The whole station can be shut down or destroyed if these messages don't reach the crew in a timely manner.

Since when did the CE the only one that shouts about the singularity being loose? Since when did the CE the only one shout about a power sink? Yeah these are very poor arguments. Everyone, even an assistant would cry this out.

3 hours ago, tzo said:

The CMO has similar communication duties with regards to things like a deadly virus, such as brain rot, which can easily kill scores of crew if handled badly.

CONFIRMED OUTBREAK OF LEVEL 7 VIRAL BIOHAZARD ABOARD THIS STATION. ALL PERSONNEL MUST CONTAIN THE OUTBREAK....Bad argument again, then again the virology could be a traitor and even so. Even an assistant would cry this out again.

3 hours ago, tzo said:

The RD... well, Science is the department of things that emit deadly lasers, catch fire, explode, lay eggs, and/or turn green. There are any number of emergencies that could arise in Science which the crew would need a public warning about. I still regularly see monsters running down the hallways because someone messed up with the EXPERIMENTOR. The RD needs to be able to communicate that stuff. They can't always prevent their staff from being incompetent and creating massively dangerous things, but at least they can warn the crew when monsters are rampaging down the halls.

These are case by case basis that can be handle at an individual level. I can in fact prevent staff from doing something dangerous because normally it's only one personnel being the incident per round, but sometimes it's could be more but again, It can be handled ;)...If they don't listen and decide to build a phazon in the corner of science to wreak havoc (mute or not), then chances are they won't listen ever or they are a antag.

Then again, as a scientist. Things always wreak havoc behind the RDs back. Mute or Not.

You are right about the HoP though... I would actually take mutadone if that was the case. Other than that....no

 

@Asnari You should read my medical records. Its snowflaked, but it prevents people from trying to make that argument.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Jovaniph
fix

[Spacemanspark]

@jovaniph

Chill out a bit, please, there's no need for the hostilities towards Ansari.

[Jovaniph]

Sorry and sorry Ansari. I just get this relate comment everytime I play as a mute "Why don't you get mutadone/clean s.e.?". What I can't have a medical reason while I roleplay?

Edited October 24, 2017 by Jovaniph
grammar

[lizardzsi]

Well, quite a popular topic apparently, and I'm going to pitch in my two cents. While I do not 'hang out' IC with Jovan, he is probably one of my favourite snowflakes characters due to how he works around being mute. (Though my opinion about the matter might be different if there would be more mute people running around)
On the issue of command/security role: If those departments would be working as 'intended', where everyone is working IC with a performance/efficiency that is on paper, I would say that: mute people, shouldn't work in those roles, for the reasons you all already stated, and wouldn't want to keep repeating it in different iterations.
However, the way things are ACTUALLY working, and not on paper: quite frequently on sec (as recently I've been playing sec roles again more frequently because I hate myself) there is no communication, and the arresting officers might as well be mutes for not interacting with the suspect, or even telling on the sec channel why are they bringing in someone, and just dump them off at interrogation. Or just set someone for arrest, and when a different officer catches the guy and asks the reason for the arrest status, it will never be answered. So compared to that, Jovan at least PDAs the suspect, communicates with sec, and if he gets mugged and needs someone to cry for help, he can always have a pAI buddy.
So, for those arguments whether he is effective as a sec, or head: he is absolutely not. He does an amazing job playing around being mute, but giving his best will not make him 'good' and will always be in a huge disadvantage, both for himself (yeah, I was part of the time when he was murderboned by the rest of sec when we 'convinced' them he was a ling) and both for his collegues and it will bite them in the ass. But, compared to the big picture, to the rest of the average player? He does an average job compared to others when it comes to overall performance/efficiency, where he can perform his duties adequately with those handicaps, and unless Para turns into a high RP server where good communication is enforced for these roles, I think a mute Jovan works.

Edited October 24, 2017 by lizardzsi

[Ralta]

I would quite like to know what the frequency of complaints is against mute characters, both in general and in command roles. As someone who hasn't come across these issues personally, it looks like a mountain is being made out of a molehill, but I do wonder if there are complaints being made that I'm simply not seeing / hearing about.

[FeiH]

I have complaints about mute characters every other round - just look at the mime. 

Jokes aside, I’m not keen on mute characters in command roles. I can’t say anything that hasnt already been said. Different roles have different capacities for what can be considered “unsuitable for duty” and being a mute head is one of them. Jovan might be a great player, but with heads of staff already being incurably mute and uncommunicative sometimes, it’s better to be safe than sorry. 

[necaladun]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, it seems this is a fairly indepth issue that will require some examination and discussion. As this only affects a handful of people, it might be some time, and a few extra days of it not being decided on won't affect things majorly.

For a start, nothing will be added specifically to the rules about it, as it's such a niche case, and the rules are meant to be a broader overview and not get bogged down in minute details like that.

 

My personal opinion currently, is the following:

 

Mute characters represent an additional roleplaying challenge that I encourage in suitable roles. For heads of staff, one of the biggest complaints we have - next to failure to properly enforce space law from HoS's - is a lack of proper communication with their departments.

Security roles, including the HoS, need to be able to communicate with people - the simplest case being to tell people what they are charged with. PDA does not suffice, as you cannot PDA someone who you don't know the name of (for instance to say, remove that mask and put your ID on), nor can you address a crowd of people with a PDA. These roles absolutely require you to be able to use the say verb, not just to communicate in such fashions, but also to be able to relay with fellow members of your department on radio.

The Captain - and thus the HoP, as 2IC - also require radio access to do their job to an adequate fashion. It is simply not enough to communicate only via PDA or announcement console. Relaying and communicating with all departments, either privately for security issues, or just in general with a specific department, is not able to be done sufficiently via PDA.  

While there are many other roles that are made harder by selected disabilities, in this case the effect directly translates to making things harder for other players, either in their department or related to their work.

For CMOs, CEs, and RDs, the main communication needed is with their own department and command channel. While this could be replicated with 2 PDA chatrooms, this still hampers the flow of conversation, requires constant monitoring of who is meant to have access to the comms, causes a beeping sound every time you message them, and in general does more to annoy and hamper other's ability to interact with their head of staff.

I do not personally see what gain is made in exchange for this, that makes it fair on other players, to make up for the difficulties and frustrations inflicted on them. 

Playing a head of staff role is a responsibility, and one of those responsibilities is communicating with your department over the radio. To insist on making it more difficult on the rest of your department so that you may play a character who is mute (which is entirely optional) seems unfair to me on the other players in your department, - or the crew as a whole in the case of sec/captains.

[Jovaniph]

It seems blatantly obvious that the administration are 100% on this new change. I still believe the rules need to be amended in someway to make it clear while maintaining a broad definition. Maybe not command, but definitely to make it clear for people who would play Security.

Other than that, I can't say that I'm happy about this.

I would like to claim this issue resolved.

[necaladun]

30 minutes ago, Jovaniph said:

It seems blatantly obvious that the administration are 100% on this new change.

They are not at all, and there has been much debate from admins, with various points being made for or against by various different admins. What I posted above is my personal opinion, and i am uncomfortable making a ruling on it with how much debate there has been among admins on it.

[KingPhilipIII]

Just on the record, when I'm an antagonist such as a shadowling, a vampire, or a cultist, some of my first targets include the mime and any mutes I am aware of at the time. You are clearly disadvantaged as you cannot even cry for help, and it makes you easy prey, especially if you're a loot pinata in terms of gear or access. (Such as an officer or a Head of Staff.)

It's not even meta or powergaming, plain and simple for predators relying on the maintaining of their cover you're far too easy to abduct/eat/murder.

I remember a time where a certain vulpkanin was playing Security as a mute, I was a vampire and I spent fifteen minutes stalking her from the shadows before I struck and dragged her into a lair I'd prepared on her patrol route. Free taser, sec access(I broke two other vampires out of perma with it later), access to sec comms, etc.

Edited October 25, 2017 by KingPhilipIII

[DrunkDwarf]

1 hour ago, KingPhilipIII said:

Just on the record, when I'm an antagonist such as a shadowling, a vampire, or a cultist, some of my first targets include the mime and any mutes I am aware of at the time. You are clearly disadvantaged as you cannot even cry for help, and it makes you easy prey, especially if you're a loot pinata in terms of gear or access. (Such as an officer or a Head of Staff.)

It's not even meta or powergaming, plain and simple for predators relying on the maintaining of their cover you're far too easy to abduct/eat/murder.

I remember a time where a certain vulpkanin was playing Security as a mute, I was a vampire and I spent fifteen minutes stalking her from the shadows before I struck and dragged her into a lair I'd prepared on her patrol route. Free taser, sec access(I broke two other vampires out of perma with it later), access to sec comms, etc.

The same could be said of preying on newer players in those roles, if someone seems unsure/hesitant about what they should be doing, they're likely going to be easier prey.

What you've described is a far more interesting and clever way to antag, and should frankly be encouraged, so the antags don't always have to resort to brute force to achieve their goals. The more creative the antags, the more fun the round will be, at least in theory.

But I get it, that's the way the community here works, most antags are usually 100% powergaming, so therefore Command and Security have to do the same to be able to keep up, which means weaknesses must be disallowed.

Powergaming is the death of Roleplay.

Edited October 25, 2017 by DrunkDwarf

[Birdtalon]

2 minutes ago, DrunkDwarf said:

Powergaming is the death of Roleplay.

I think this is being completely taken out of context here. This is about expecting players who play command roles which are relied on for the progression of the round to have at least the basic ability to speak. If someone wants to play a disabled snowflake then nobody is preventing that. It's just not acceptable in a role which requires communication skills and this is reflected in the real world.

[DrunkDwarf]

24 minutes ago, Birdtalon said:

I think this is being completely taken out of context here. This is about expecting players who play command roles which are relied on for the progression of the round to have at least the basic ability to speak. If someone wants to play a disabled snowflake then nobody is preventing that. It's just not acceptable in a role which requires communication skills and this is reflected in the real world.

Those players do already have the basic ability to communicate. The problem is how efficiently they can communicate, with the argument being made that if they can't communicate 100% as efficiently as someone without those disabilities, then they can't play those roles.

Whether a player chooses to communicate is a separate issue, and one that occurs regardless of disabilities set for the character.

Edited October 25, 2017 by DrunkDwarf

[Buford]

Well reading that opinions will be allowed. I couldn't see myself working with a mute HoS. I mean security comms and all that. To get a reply from security comms we'd have to check our PDAs which could turn out really bad.

[TullyBBurnalot]

After a prolonged waiting time, and with the merging of a PR disallowing disabilities from Captains and Heads of Security, I'll be filing this to Resolved. Seeing as this quite literally was not explicit in any policy at the time, there is very little, if any, fault to be had with the way the Administrator acted, especially considering they were in their Trial period.