Let Vox be cloneable

[Cyiko]

There's a bit of a thing to this though. The cortical stack in a Vox actually does do something, it doesn't do the lore thing AKA making them go batshit if it's taken out, but in gameplay Vox die if it's taken out. My idea is simple and doesn't need much explaining, let Vox be cloned but the clone won't have their stack thus they will die (No doubt leading to new doctors shoving them in the cloner over and over) and need the cortical stack from their dead body transplanted into the new one and defibbed. Vox can't get backup scans like the other races because the body will always be needed to revive them, at least their stack anyway.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Cyiko

[scrubmcnoob]

Vox aren't cloneable for balance reasons.

They already got enough buffs as is.

 

[Cyiko]

3 hours ago, scrubmcnoob said:

Vox aren't cloneable for balance reasons.

They already got enough buffs as is.

 

Slime people have far more going for them than the Vox. I really doubt letting Vox have their stack transplanted into a new clone is going to be a gigantic issue.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Cyiko

[FoS]

Vox absolutely should not be able to be cloned. It's already a little bit silly that SR is easy to come by and sure it sucks if you get killed and everyone leaves your body there for too long and you cant be defibbed but that's the risk you take when you play vox. That's one of their major downsides and one of the things a vox player should think about before they decide to do something risky.

If you want to get into lore and things then technically it would be impossible for vox to be cloned, not because of their cortical stacks, but because the station/crew lack the technology/knowledge to do so. A quote from vox-lore "The molecular complexity of Primalis skin suggests that extensive engineering has been undertaken to adapt it to low-pressure environments. So far attempts at lab-grown samples have produced no results, such efforts often producing highly acidic compounds that commonly burn through the equipment used in the process."

[scrubmcnoob]

8 hours ago, Cyiko said:

Slime people have far more going for them than the Vox. I really doubt letting Vox have their stack transplanted into a new clone is going to be a gigantic issue.

What do slime people have that Vox don't?
Slime people can't even space walk like Vox and in fact, would die a ton quicker then any other species in the game because slime people take extreme damage from the cold.

[EvadableMoxie]

1 hour ago, scrubmcnoob said:

What do slime people have that Vox don't?
 

They can regenerate their own limbs, they have no organs and thus are immune to organ damage, and they use water as blood which is an unlimited resource via sinks and has no blood type compatibility issues.

Personally, I think they're better than Vox.  It's not like internals are hard to come by, there are O2 closets everywhere.

I like Vox not being clonable, though.  It's nice when I get to actually go to work on a badly injured patient and fix them rather than just throwing them in the cloner because it's faster.   

[Allfd]

A lore discrepancy was raised regarding the cortical stack.

I will be working on a PR to address.

[Dinarzad]

4 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

They can regenerate their own limbs, they have no organs and thus are immune to organ damage, and they use water as blood which is an unlimited resource via sinks and has no blood type compatibility issues.

Personally, I think they're better than Vox.  It's not like internals are hard to come by, there are O2 closets everywhere.

I like Vox not being clonable, though.  It's nice when I get to actually go to work on a badly injured patient and fix them rather than just throwing them in the cloner because it's faster.   

1: They regenerate limbs at TREMENDOUS cost to time and nutrition investment, and as far as I know, you can't really move or take action during that time or it's all for naught.
2: They have no organs to take damage, but they still have a 'brain' which takes A metric ton more brain damage then usual.
3: Water as blood is a double-edged sword, because you can slip on your own blood as easily as someone can slip on yours, as for it being "Unlimited" medical has a ton of blood bags and you can order more at cargo. In addition, because slimes don't leave "Blood" behind, there's not really anything for a detective to scan or anyone to notice if you were beaten to death somewhere and then moved. No blood trail and water dries up.
This is in ADDITION to being unable to be cloned as well as taking far more cold damage.

Slimes are not better then Vox.
Vox meanwhile:
Are immune to atmospherics, due to having their own brand of internals. They also catch a case of the deads if those masks are removed, but this process can take a looooooooong time.
Can prance through space with few to no issues, without a spacesuit and due to roundstart and constant internals, means you can always run into the void where few people can follow you.
Vox have fragile bird bones and their bones break easier then humans, taking in general 5% more brute damage. If this is the thing that is pushign them ;over the edge' I remind you Grey take *25%* more brute damage and their only perk is they can do brain talk.

Vox don't need buffs in any aspect. Vox have plenty going for them and a pair of giant downsides against them in exchange for them.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Dinarzad

[Spacemanspark]

Vox are uncloneable because it's one of their unique traits, to go along with their other quite impressive unique traits. I don't really see removing this as a good idea.

[Cyiko]

9 hours ago, scrubmcnoob said:

What do slime people have that Vox don't?
Slime people can't even space walk like Vox and in fact, would die a ton quicker then any other species in the game because slime people take extreme damage from the cold.

Regenerating limbs, water blood (Slipping people who can attack them) and not many organs that need to be taken care of and they don't breathe, no oxyloss.

Vox can go into space. That's is, space. It's niche as hell and if someone has a job that requires them to go into space, no doubt they can get a space suit too. The syndie PDA has a space suit in a box. It's almost impossible to disguise yourself on the station as a Vox, if someone sees you commit a crime it's just a measure of figuring out which of the 6 vox onboard have the matching quills and tail color. and 20% extra brute damage taken. And constant internals? Everyone can also do that, the difference is the Vox HAVE to do that. 

My entire time as a Vox, the only time I've ever had to make use of going into space as when i was saving someone who got downed in a space tile after an explosion, that was it.

I'm all for slime people being cloned too, I think the entire no cloneable race thing is stupid and shouldn't be a thing. I find the assassination targets to be more interesting because the challenge isn't how to kill someone, it's how to stop them coming back.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Cyiko

[Cyiko]

7 hours ago, Allfd said:

A lore discrepancy was raised regarding the cortical stack.

I will be working on a PR to address.

Which one? Vox in gameplay just die when the stack is taken out?

Edited May 1, 2017 by Cyiko

[scrubmcnoob]

If you believe that being completely space proof without any type of suit is just a niche, you have a really clouded judgement which makes this look more and more like a bias buff (insert race here) thread.

 

 

 

[PhantasmicDream]

Quote

They can regenerate their own limbs, they have no organs and thus are immune to organ damage, and they use water as blood which is an unlimited resource via sinks and has no blood type compatibility issues.

 

Quote

Regenerating limbs, water blood (Slipping people who can attack them) and not many organs that need to be taken care of and they don't breathe, no oxyloss.

But of course when a slime person looses a tone of blood they get a lot of toxin damage,  which I think is much more worst and just having "oxyloss"  And only have one organ which is you're slime core that process everything, and once that takes a huge hit you're down.
 

Quote

I'm all for slime people being cloned too, I think the entire no cloneable race thing is stupid and shouldn't be a thing. I find the assassination targets to be more interesting because the challenge isn't how to kill someone, it's how to stop them coming back.

having some races not be cloneable I find adds for more dramatic RP,   plus it gets people away from always going to the cloners as a fail-safe sort of thing.  And I get it, it gets annoying to find yourself dead and brought into medbay having your body left there and noone doing anything about it.  Then sometimes tries cloning you but it doesn't work and just leaves you there.  But clearly those people can't figure out how to examine a body and see what their race is and clearly aren't ready to be working in medbay. 

and again,  the no cloning is supposed to be a horrible downside to the races, if they could get cloned there's a chance more people would play the race and then we might have half the station full of screeching Voxxes.   

Adding some other interesting ways for these other races to come back if they reach the rotting point could be fun.  Like having a slime person's slime core into a beaker full of water and they slowly grow back in that.

[Allfd]

I am looking into cortical stack changes,  but it would probably be a good idea to figure out what is on peoples minds.

 

In the mean time, I put up a not at all serious PR.  https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/7202

[Xantholne]

Let them be cloneable, but only after nerfing them even more. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Xantholne

[EvadableMoxie]

20 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

1: They regenerate limbs at TREMENDOUS cost to time and nutrition investment, and as far as I know, you can't really move or take action during that time or it's all for naught.
2: They have no organs to take damage, but they still have a 'brain' which takes A metric ton more brain damage then usual.
3: Water as blood is a double-edged sword, because you can slip on your own blood as easily as someone can slip on yours, as for it being "Unlimited" medical has a ton of blood bags and you can order more at cargo. In addition, because slimes don't leave "Blood" behind, there's not really anything for a detective to scan or anyone to notice if you were beaten to death somewhere and then moved. No blood trail and water dries up.
This is in ADDITION to being unable to be cloned as well as taking far more cold damage.

Slimes are not better then Vox.
Vox meanwhile:
Are immune to atmospherics, due to having their own brand of internals. They also catch a case of the deads if those masks are removed, but this process can take a looooooooong time.
Can prance through space with few to no issues, without a spacesuit and due to roundstart and constant internals, means you can always run into the void where few people can follow you.
Vox have fragile bird bones and their bones break easier then humans, taking in general 5% more brute damage. If this is the thing that is pushign them ;over the edge' I remind you Grey take *25%* more brute damage and their only perk is they can do brain talk.

Vox don't need buffs in any aspect. Vox have plenty going for them and a pair of giant downsides against them in exchange for them.

 

I can understand people who think Vox are stronger than Slimes, since as I said I think they are pretty close.  However, some of your arguments to reach that conclusion are things I disagree with. How much is "TREMENDOUS"?  How much is "A metric ton more'? Hyperbole isn't a legitimate argument.

It takes something like 45-60 seconds to regenerate a limb.  It is highly unlikely you'll walk into Medbay and walk out with a new limb in less time than that. Nutritional cost doesn't matter when a single cup of chicken soup from a hot drinks vendor provides enough nutrition on it's own to last you an entire 2 hour shift. Limb regeneration is useful and powerful.

Brain/Slimecore damage is never really an issue when Mannitol is 3 buttons to make and heals a massive 7.5 brain damage per 1 unit. If you were roughed up enough to get brain damage you probably need to go to Medbay anyway and a doctor will just pop a Mannitol pill in your mouth and that'll be that.

Slipping on your own blood is a double-edged sword, sure, but probably more of an advantage overall. If you are fleeing while bleeding it's going to mess up your pursuers a lot more than it'll mess you up.  The detective not being able to analyse your blood is an extreme edge case, but it's just as much an advantage for antags as it is a disadvantage for victims. In reality though, it's probably never going to matter either way.

Slime people take more cold damage, Vox take more brute damage.  I'd probably say that Vox's downside of 5% more brute is the worse of the two. Brute damage is incredibly common, cold damage is not. Yea, it sucks Grays have a 25% penalty, but that has nothing to do with how strong Vox versus Slime people are.

Additionally, Slime people suffer from being unclonable a lot less than Vox do. There are no internal organs that can be lost or decayed, and missing limbs are no issue.  You can get a heavily damaged slime person back alive and well far more quickly and easily than you can a Vox.

Now, Vox do have a massive advantage in not caring about Atmo, and I think the recent Atmo tests and atmo improvements have only made this advantage stronger.  I don't think someone who feels this advantage is better than everything slime people get is necessarily wrong for thinking that.

Ultimately, I think both Slime people and Vox are mechanically powerful, and pretty close to eachother. It probably depends on your profession and the individual situation of the round.

And I don't think either should be clonable, for the record. If anything, I'd like cloning to get nerfed somehow, but that's a separate discussion and doesn't really have anything to do with the races. 

[Dinarzad]

Quote

It takes something like 45-60 seconds to regenerate a limb.  It is highly unlikely you'll walk into Medbay and walk out with a new limb in less time than that. Nutritional cost doesn't matter when a single cup of chicken soup from a hot drinks vendor provides enough nutrition on it's own to last you an entire 2 hour shift. Limb regeneration is useful and powerful.

I don't believe that's correct, seeing as even meals cooked by the chef don't provide THAT much nutrition and why the chef is even needed in the first place.

Quote

Slipping on your own blood is a double-edged sword, sure, but probably more of an advantage overall. If you are fleeing while bleeding it's going to mess up your pursuers a lot more than it'll mess you up.  The detective not being able to analyse your blood is an extreme edge case, but it's just as much an advantage for antags as it is a disadvantage for victims. In reality though, it's probably never going to matter either way.

Okay, hold up.
You can't chide me for using 'hyperbole' and 'vague statements' like "Well how much is tremendous and how much is a metric ton more?"  and then go on yourself to use phrases like 'Takes something like' or 'probably more'
If you want to push this into the realm of pure mathematics and statistics, that's absolutely fine, but then we have to go the distance, not this double-standard of "You can't use hyperbole but I can use maybes and probablies and lots"
Either we're straight up statistician here or we are not, and I honestly don't care which mode we're going, but we need to pick a mode an stick with it if this debate is gonna be worth anything.

As for an 'Extreme edge case' Unless Slimes have some sort of hidden stat I didn't know about to not make them antagonist targets, that's not extreme at all. A dead slime leaves no blood, no evidence. Nobody  can be suspicious about a bloody chapel or blood steps in maintenance if there's no blood to begin with.

Quote

Brain/Slimecore damage is never really an issue when Mannitol is 3 buttons to make and heals a massive 7.5 brain damage per 1 unit. If you were roughed up enough to get brain damage you probably need to go to Medbay anyway and a doctor will just pop a Mannitol pill in your mouth and that'll be that.

That assumes you survive long enough to GET the mannitol. Enough brain damage can and will kill you, for most people that threat is negligable but slimes take so much more brain damage it is -entirely- in the realm of possibility for them to die of slime core damage before even getting to medical.

Quote

Slime people take more cold damage, Vox take more brute damage.  I'd probably say that Vox's downside of 5% more brute is the worse of the two. Brute damage is incredibly common, cold damage is not. Yea, it sucks Grays have a 25% penalty, but that has nothing to do with how strong Vox versus Slime people are.

Slimes take literally three times as much cold based damage, compared to Vox who are immune to it since that's required to go space walking without a suit. That's a LITTLE more then 5%, but I DO stand corrected in that I was wrong as searching through the code it seems to be a 20% modifer not 5%.
As for the comment on Greys it absolutely has bearing on this discussion because it is a point of comparison. Greys have the sole ability to use telepathy and their downside is a larger brute penalty, compared to vox who ignore atmos, ignore space and have talons and yet have a LESSER brute penalty, and before that brute penalty was added had -NO- penalty save for their masks and the inability to be cloned.

Quote

Additionally, Slime people suffer from being unclonable a lot less than Vox do. There are no internal organs that can be lost or decayed, and missing limbs are no issue.  You can get a heavily damaged slime person back alive and well far more quickly and easily than you can a Vox.

Dead is dead an that's that. You don't "Suffer more" from being dead an gone. You cannot brain transplant vox/slimes into human bodies anymore, so the state of decay is a non-issue since both of them need to be defibrilated or SR'd to be revived and SR doesn;t care if organs are a pile of goopy mush, it cares about the overall damage to a body exceeding a threshold.

I don't entirely understand the point of this debate however, if you're of the mind Vox and Slimes are close together in terms of balance and don't think either needs to be cloneable. I legitimately don't know what you're arguing in favor -of-.

[shazbot194]

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

I don't believe that's correct, seeing as even meals cooked by the chef don't provide THAT much nutrition and why the chef is even needed in the first place.

Because why not.

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Slimes take literally three times as much cold based damage, compared to Vox who are immune to it since that's required to go space walking without a suit. That's a LITTLE more then 5%, but I DO stand corrected in that I was wrong as searching through the code it seems to be a 20% modifer not 5%.
As for the comment on Greys it absolutely has bearing on this discussion because it is a point of comparison. Greys have the sole ability to use telepathy and their downside is a larger brute penalty, compared to vox who ignore atmos, ignore space and have talons and yet have a LESSER brute penalty, and before that brute penalty was added had -NO- penalty save for their masks and the inability to be cloned.

If anything, the ability to ignore the atmos conditions is what I think is the greatest advantage of probably any race, with only the plasman having something close and they have to wear a whole suit in order to do it, removing quite a lot from them, even if it isn't immediately noticeable, such as not being able to customize your look. While I could see someway to clone the birds, I can't think of any downside that would near enough to not make them superb to all other races without making them worse then all other races. There are some races that do have these kinds of disadvantages, like IPC who can be killed at range about 5 different times with one 2tc item with no recourse to counter, and I don't think something like this would be fun for anyone who plays vox, although I could be wrong.

Edited May 2, 2017 by shazbot194

[The Respected Man]

16 hours ago, Xantholne said:

Let them be cloneable, but only after nerfing them even more. 

This. 

[EvadableMoxie]

Let me clarify some points here:

Slimes not leaving blood with DNA is an extreme edge case because it is extremely rare for someone to die and have the culprit caught due to DNA analysis on blood by a detective. It's rare a detective does any investigating at all, let alone catches a murderer via the victim's blood.

Likewise, in months of playing Medical, I have seen someone have enough brain damage to die from it once, and that came along with enough physical trauma to also kill them anyway.  I think you'd have to actively try to create a situation where you die from brain damage before you die from physical damage.  Like, you'd need to hit someone in the head while repeatedly treating the brute damage it causes so they don't die.

My point about SR was about post-revival care.  I was comparing the amount effort it requires to get from from dead to fully healthy.  You are comparing the amount of effort to get them from dead to alive.  These are two entirely different things.  

As a doctor, you don't just shove SR down someone's throat and walk away.  You have to treat the rest of the damage, treat the genetic damage the SR causes, treat any broken bones, organ damage or missing limbs that resulted from what killed them, and then treat the various infections and dead limbs and organs they have from being dead if they've been dead awhile.  It's an involved process, and that process is a lot easier when dealing with a race that has no organs and can regenerate their own limbs. 

[shazbot194]

1 hour ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Likewise, in months of playing Medical, I have seen someone have enough brain damage to die from it once, and that came along with enough physical trauma to also kill them anyway.  I think you'd have to actively try to create a situation where you die from brain damage before you die from physical damage.  Like, you'd need to hit someone in the head while repeatedly treating the brute damage it causes so they don't die. 

I would like to know where you have been because I have seen someone OD on meth, three times in one round, they needed more or less equal amounts of mannitol to prevent death. As well, mannitol is the one chem other then brute/burn fixes I know will be used every single round.

1 hour ago, EvadableMoxie said:

My point about SR was about post-revival care.  I was comparing the amount effort it requires to get from from dead to fully healthy.  You are comparing the amount of effort to get them from dead to alive.  These are two entirely different things.  

As a doctor, you don't just shove SR down someone's throat and walk away.  You have to treat the rest of the damage, treat the genetic damage the SR causes, treat any broken bones, organ damage or missing limbs that resulted from what killed them, and then treat the various infections and dead limbs and organs they have from being dead if they've been dead awhile.  It's an involved process, and that process is a lot easier when dealing with a race that has no organs and can regenerate their own limbs. 

While I get this, having to deal with fixing a rotting corpse (which can be prevented) isn't always fun, most vox I know/have seen are very robust players. Trying to get an insane one down for surgery without a tazer and something very strong like pre-nerf neurotoxin would not be an easy task and most likely cause more broken bones then just using SR would, I would even say cloning plasmen at the medbay cloner would be easier. Not to mention the lore behind this would be difficult to just wave away as it is one of the few bits of lore we do have. 

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by shazbot194

[EvadableMoxie]

I did some experimenting (I already had my server up testing alien embryos) and found some pretty interesting results.  This was tested by laying the slimeperson on an operating table and beating them with a red toolbox.

Near as I can tell, Slimecores don't take damage until the head and upper body take a certain amount of damage.  if you keep hitting the head eventually the damage transfers to the upper body, and then the slimecore starts getting damaged.  Slime core damage upon death varied greatly, anywhere from 30 to up to 100.  Once, I managed to get a test subject to 120 brain damage (which is when death occurs) and it was on the same swing where they hit 200 brute and died anyway. 

It's hard to say anything conclusively because the results were so varied.  Sometimes it's 30 brain damage, sometimes it's 100. I'm really curious about how internal organ damage works now, but I don't have time to dive the code. 

So, anyway, while it is probably possible for a Slime person to die of brain damage before brute damage would have killed another race, I can say it's fairly unlikely and almost always would have meant any other race in hard crit at least. 

Repeating these test of humans 3-4 times, I got about 10-20 brain damage before death occurred. It's hard to put a number on how much extra damage slimes take since it varied wildly.

(For the record too, it takes 45 seconds to regrow a limb, but limbs and hand/feet have to be  regrown separately, so that's 90 seconds total if you need a whole new limb)

Cup of Chicken Soup contains 30 units of chicken soup.  The metabolic rate is 0.2 and it provides 2 nutriment per tick.  So that's 10 nutriment per unit, or 300 nutriment from a 30u cup. I wonder if it was supposed to be 2 nutriment per unit and this is a bug. 

 

10 minutes ago, shazbot194 said:

I would like to know where you have been because I have seen someone OD on meth, three times in one round, they needed more or less equal amounts of mannitol to prevent death. As well, mannitol is the one chem other then brute/burn fixes I know will be used every single round.

 

What's the argument here? That Slime people are a worse race than Vox when you choose to OD yourself on meth? I don't understand how this is relevant to the comparison of mechanical power between Vox and Slimepeople.

Edited May 2, 2017 by EvadableMoxie

[shazbot194]

52 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

What's the argument here? That Slime people are a worse race than Vox when you choose to OD yourself on meth? I don't understand how this is relevant to the comparison of mechanical power between Vox and Slimepeople.

I was saying that there is a lot of brain damage dealt out, and methods other then beating can make it possible to kill someone with brain damage. I wasn't making a direct comparison between slime people and vox either, just saying that brain damage is a common problem and shouldn't be discounted  because its not taken advantage of yet.

52 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

I did some experimenting (I already had my server up testing alien embryos) and found some pretty interesting results.  This was tested by laying the slimeperson on an operating table and beating them with a red toolbox.

Near as I can tell, Slimecores don't take damage until the head and upper body take a certain amount of damage.  if you keep hitting the head eventually the damage transfers to the upper body, and then the slimecore starts getting damaged.  Slime core damage upon death varied greatly, anywhere from 30 to up to 100.  Once, I managed to get a test subject to 120 brain damage (which is when death occurs) and it was on the same swing where they hit 200 brute and died anyway. 

It's hard to say anything conclusively because the results were so varied.  Sometimes it's 30 brain damage, sometimes it's 100. I'm really curious about how internal organ damage works now, but I don't have time to dive the code. 

So, anyway, while it is probably possible for a Slime person to die of brain damage before brute damage would have killed another race, I can say it's fairly unlikely and almost always would have meant any other race in hard crit at least. 

Repeating these test of humans 3-4 times, I got about 10-20 brain damage before death occurred. It's hard to put a number on how much extra damage slimes take since it varied wildly.

While you did say you didn't have the time to look at how organ damage worked, I did a quick search for brain damage, and found these line in code/module/mob/carbon/brain/update_status

Spoiler

    if(health <= config.health_threshold_dead)
        if(stat != DEAD)
            death()

So the threshold should be fixed. It should be noted that organs working while dead isn't un-commom.

Edited May 2, 2017 by shazbot194

[EvadableMoxie]

Just now, shazbot194 said:

I was saying that there is a lot of brain damage dealt out, and methods other then beating can make it possible to kill someone with brain damage. I wasn't making a direct comparison between slime people and vox either, just saying that brain damage is a common problem and shouldn't be discounted  because its not taken advantage of yet.

 

 

But if that damage is rarely fatal, and usually fixed up while the physical damage is fixed up, then it really isn't a big deal.  That's my point.  If a slime person comes in with a cracked skull and 30 brain damage and a human comes in with a cracked skull and 20 brain damage, the end result is exactly the same.  Taking more damage doesn't matter in and of itself.  It would only matter if it makes slime people easier to kill, and it really doesn't. 

Interesting bit about the damage threshold.  I wonder if that's intentional or a bug?  If it is meant to be 200 damage for brain death then I can say pretty conclusively that would pretty much never happen in normal play.  Again, mitigating factors like intentionally ODing yourself with meth aside.  

[shazbot194]

10 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

But if that damage is rarely fatal, and usually fixed up while the physical damage is fixed up, then it really isn't a big deal.  That's my point.  If a slime person comes in with a cracked skull and 30 brain damage and a human comes in with a cracked skull and 20 brain damage, the end result is exactly the same.  Taking more damage doesn't matter in and of itself.  It would only matter if it makes slime people easier to kill, and it really doesn't. 

I do agree that it is rare to see someone with a stupidly large amount of brain damage, but it is possible. 30u of meth can be lethal because it does so much brain damage, maybe not directly lethal, but debilitating enough to make easy kills. After all, 2 pre-heated donk pockets eaten at the same time can take a nukie out before any fighting. Who knows, there might be a new meta to make drug smoke grenades if someone find out how to make it lethal.

10 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Interesting bit about the damage threshold.  I wonder if that's intentional or a bug?  If it is meant to be 200 damage for brain death then I can say pretty conclusively that would pretty much never happen in normal play.  Again, mitigating factors like intentionally ODing yourself with meth aside.  

Did you happen to revive the person in some way, from what I hear/know, organ damage is very weird and is normally overlooked when it comes to health checks unless someone fixed it recently, like within the past month. This is how defibing someone lets them ignore things like dead lungs and hearts. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by shazbot194