fusionpoo Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Ive been playing for a few months here on this server as it is one of the higher population servers with the level of RP I like and from what I can see you have active admins and mentors that police the server well and answer questions, but I am getting kind of annoyed at the karma system. I will have fantastic rounds as the as the CE, AI, or whatever and get 0 karma gain. Round after round for a few months and I am sitting with 6 karma... not even enough for a new species unlock. Yet you see the same community members who must just circle jerk the karma system playing as magistrate and plasmamen. Yet you are told if you ask karma for karma or trades that it is a bannable offense. At one point as CE after nearly an hour I was about to start up a secondary singularity when a meteor storm came out of nowhere that completely fucked up my work. I laughed a bit assuming it must have been the admins and upon messaging them they confirmed. I asked for karma in return seeing as much hard work was put in to be ended for the continued gameplay of the server and was told not to do it again. The only way I see as a solution from a players perspective is to game the system with friends which is clearly against the rules. I implore the community leaders to rework the karma system or as admins give out karma more generously if you see players doing their job properly. Having repaired entire breaches in the hull as CE to having research maxed as RD or having an efficient medical staff as CMO their should be some immediate reward that is not limited to random player generosity which is subject to possible abuse. If you are successful in your job be it Traitor, changeling, or research, why cant that success directly lead to karma gain. Anyways see you on the server and thanks again to the admins for this great little community here in the small world of ss13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauka Usanake Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 The Karma System is dependent on a peer-to-peer system in a sense. I one day hope to unlock Mechanic just so I can try mass producing pods but having only the luck of 3 karma for a while (not bad seeing I only started within the month or two?) I don't see that pipe dream coming true yet. I don't know what a solution would be and I'm not going to agree with OP on the subject, but it might be something to take some consideration into. If you think about it this is kind of the same issue that crew transfer voting has. No many people use it and I at first didn't know how to use it at first either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadeykins Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Here's a listing of jobs you will never receive karma for playing unless you're an antag/really go out of your way and deviate from what your job is. Chief Engineer, Engineer, Atmospheric's Tech, Chemist, Scientist, Xenoarcheologist, Shaft Miner, Cargo Tech, Quartermaster, Head of Personnel, Research Director, Botanist and Chef. If you want to get karma, and quickly I recommend learning medical and becoming a competent doctor - especially a surgeon. You can usually net around 1-3 karma a round if you're a competent surgeon. With that said, and as someone who's got Plasmamen and all the karma jobs unlocked as well - Karma isn't easy to come by. I have said unlocks not because of circle jerking, but because I've been consistently playing for 4-10 hours every single day for about 6 months (Factoring in a 3-4 month hiatus). That's in the range of 700-1400 hours of SS13 for what amounts to about 300ish karma. If we consider that crew transfer occurs at 14:10, the vote takes a bit and the shuttle 10 mins to arrive and 3 to leave, rounds typically end at about 14:30, accounting for malf-wizard-whatever let's just say it averages out nicely to 14:00, or two hours per round. Taking an easy average of 1000 hours, that's 500 rounds and with about 300 karma on the table, that's .6 karma per round, or 3 karma every 5 rounds which isn't much. Some jobs don't really get noticed ever, period. That's not an issue with the karma system so much as the expectations of aforementioned job. Think of engineering, specifically... Starting the engine is a must, an absolute requirement of your job and something the round more or less requires to function. It's expected of you, 100%. But a medical doctor? You're treating someone for injuries that are either inflicted by another person, or self-inflicted. It's something that while required is not usually seen as "mandatory". For people it's very easy to ignore the engineer who started the engine all by himself, but very difficult to ignore the medic who just saved your ass - despite them more or less both saving your ass in different ways. Any role that does mundane work/works behind the scenes will not receive karma as much simply because they're just that - behind the scenes/mundane. The only other system we could really have would be a roleplay rating system which awards karma retroactively based on the roleplay performance of any given character (Which I would prefer as it'd raise the server's roleplay level back up and encourage less greytidey behaviour). Outside of that, I don't really see how the karma system can be reworked when the issues lay less in the system itself and more in the fact that players simply notice certain job activities less than other simply because of their nature. tl;dr karma takes time and accusing people of circlejerking won't help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmage199 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Yea, as Shadey said, people need to notice/care about your work for them considering to give you karma. RP around, have some fun, and you'll get karma before you'll even notice. If you just focus on getting karma, then you'll find the time long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidchan Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I get plenty of karma from science. Of course, I don't hide all round in the nerd bunker and generally to improve areas of the station or better equip people to do their jobs faster/more effectively/unlock extra options they can have fun with (better med machines, chem dispenser to bar and botany, meat-mixes for the chef and usually night vision for engineers if mining isn't lazy. Remodeling the bar with neat machines or toys is a great way to get karma too if you don't kill anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taaketa Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I'm sorry you don't get much Karma. but as said before you are doing jobs that are not visible to people. Get out on the station and socialise more. People reward Karma for good roleplay or inventive work in your job. I once converted the assembly line into a 'Mengbay' and got tonnesof Karma for it. Other rounds have been different or none at all. But there will not be rework. It's there to promote roleplay and I will admit it's hard to pry Karma from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusionpoo Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 tl;dr karma takes time and accusing people of circlejerking won't help you. Nice Robust karma math lol, and thanks for the detailed reply. As you said in your reply some jobs dont get noticed and I think that since the karma system envelops the community as a whole I see this as inherently promoting job positions where you have a higher chance at karma. Also didnt mean to come off as accusing people of circle jerking but at the rate I am currently going at and for a few other posters it would seem, the time it would take to reach 100 pts is on the yearly scale. I still think my previous suggestion of having admins or mentors able to generously give out some extra points if they see hard work isnt too much to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KasparoVv Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 IDK as a supernoob I spent my first month or so playing Cargo Tech and Janitor as a fuzzbutt and I raked in the karam. If I could work back and try to figure out just what got me those points, it'd be the following: A certain combination of conditions must be met to trigger people to give you karam I figure You gotta' be top kek at what you do, you have to be recognizable as a person and conspicuous in your deeds, and you have to have an appealing character Those're just a few things that came to mind but it's never just one or two that get you the big K, it's the combination of many things that'll make you more endearing to the less generous people As a person who regularly gives out karma, I find that more often I give it to those who are/do the following, the top-most being the highest priority: - Doctors who've saved my ass from a pretty shitty demise - People going out of their way to do good deeds despite adverse conditions - Good characters + kind-hearted players doing exceptional at their job while maintaining a high standard of RP - Really good antags (I rarely ever reward antagonism, which is why this is at the very bottom of the list. I'm heavily biased towards great Vox raider crews. Robustness, murderfests, ridiculous bombs and hellmixes, etc. etc don't fly w/ me) But then again, that's the glory of the karma system isn't it? If you like it then you put a ring on it OTW it may as well've not even happened You'll never please everyone, but making loads of karma is doing your best to please a good amount of people, or, rather, the 'right' people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalseIncarnate Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 People should be attempting to play their selected/given role to the best of their ability without the incentive of a reward. Failing to even attempt at this simply means you are knowingly and intentionally wasting the position. Many rather crucial jobs such as engineering and medical simply will bring the station to it's collective knees should they not even bother trying to do their job, so there is already an expectation that they will rise to the demand. Awarding players karma automatically simply for doing what they should be doing in the first place would water down the system and truly only end up rewarding the long-term players as they will have the obvious advantage in pure number of shifts played. While rewarding a player who does an exceptional job at their role would be a nice thing for admins to do, it still is a matter of determining what is "exceptional" for that admin, same as it is for any given player. As multiple posters have previously stated, Medical tends to find themselves on the receiving end of karma VERY often, simply because people are grateful to the competent doctors for keeping them in / returning them to the round. Security faces the opposite side of this, since an officer doing their job is temporarily (sometimes permanently) removing a player from the action of the round, and many people don't feel inclined to reward them for that, despite them doing their job just as well if not better than the doctor who just sewed their body back together in surgery. I would like to see the admin team awarding karma to players more frequently, but the difficulty is doing so in a way that prevents people from doing things specifically for the karma. The system is indeed a bit difficult to get going with, but establishing a consistent character with a defined roleplay tends to help immensely. Also, as previously stated: Don't set out with the goal of earning karma. Set out with the goal of having fun, helping others have fun, and teaching people new things. If you ever find yourself with someone new to the job (or the rare assistant who actually wants to learn and assist with jobs), be kind! Teaching someone a new job not only earns you their respect and gratitude, but also is a decent way to get karma. The largest reward, however, is that you have helped someone else enjoy the game better, and likely have just earned yourself a loyal IC-friend, and a very grateful OOC-friend. These seemingly small relationships help cement you as a good player, one deserving of the recognition that karma brings, and also can be incredibly useful when it comes to pulling off antag deeds. TL;DR: Don't set out to earn karma. Set out to have fun, help others have fun, and teach people new things. The karma will come to you if you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRogueAce Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I one day hope to unlock Mechanic just so I can try mass producing pods... Sadly you can't mass produce pods that easily, you need uranium to make the pod cores; and you don't have access to the EVA suit storage area, (but engineers do?) which makes it harder to actually explore the maps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauka Usanake Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I one day hope to unlock Mechanic just so I can try mass producing pods... Sadly you can't mass produce pods that easily, you need uranium to make the pod cores; and you don't have access to the EVA suit storage area, (but engineers do?) which makes it harder to actually explore the maps Which is why I would hope for miners to do an amazing job. One step at a time though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Rossi Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Don't expect to earn karma from just doing your job. It's what you're meant to do in the first place, regardless of karma motivating you. Interesting RP, going the extra mile in your field, doing absolutely fantastic as a antag role, I always manage to give my karma each round, careless of who but what they do, whether I am simply observing or it has something to do with my character. Don't check your karma every round, you'll only be disappointed. Check it once a week and you'll be much happier with the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthdivine Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Also stop giving karma to the admins. We get everything for free, show your appreciation by not breaking the rules, not givin us karma. Most of the admin team is at the top of the karma chart. Give it to others, not us, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garoon Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 "B-but I wanna show my appreciation to teh admun team so they can give me cool schtuff!" Not really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadeykins Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I think most people don't realize when admunz are playing a character. I can't tell you how many times I've given dumbnum karma for doing coolio things because I keep forgetting he's the admunz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalseIncarnate Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Also stop giving karma to the admins.... Give it to others, not us, please. You have no idea how much it bothered me to see myself getting karma when i was still a fresh admin. I had already pretty much unlocked everything I truly wanted (IPC and mechanic), plus then got everything else with my admin rights. It was somewhat sad to see that people were giving me the karma instead of someone else who could really benefit from it. I'd give that out if I could, but I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiberDark Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Couldn´t you make it so that the karma system is giving a notification, if a player wants to spent a point to an admin ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keilden Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I don't keep track on all admins characters so I bet I have given karma to admins several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necaladun Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Couldn´t you make it so that the karma system is giving a notification, if a player wants to spent a point to an admin ? I don't want people to be able to know who my characters are or if I'm online unless I want them to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldflame Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Couldn´t you make it so that the karma system is giving a notification, if a player wants to spent a point to an admin ? I don't want people to be able to know who my characters are or if I'm online unless I want them to know. It'd still be a good opt-in option for admins who are open about when they're online and who they play. More directly relevant to the thread: I think there should be a cap on how much karma Person A can give Person B in any given day/week/month to discourage both actual karma trading and only distributing karma within a clique. If people can't constantly feed karma back and forth with their friends, they're more liable to distribute it to people who actually earn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTSAM Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Couldn´t you make it so that the karma system is giving a notification, if a player wants to spent a point to an admin ? I don't want people to be able to know who my characters are or if I'm online unless I want them to know. It'd still be a good opt-in option for admins who are open about when they're online and who they play. More directly relevant to the thread: I think there should be a cap on how much karma Person A can give Person B in any given day/week/month to discourage both actual karma trading and only distributing karma within a clique. If people can't constantly feed karma back and forth with their friends, they're more liable to distribute it to people who actually earn it. Or, you know, they just won't use the system at all, like 75% of other players. I myself just think the karma system is fine how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanov Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think there's definitely room for improvement. Though I don't think rewarding people just for doing their job is the way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauka Usanake Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I give karma to people who help me out and are nice. Chemists/medical staff in Chemistry and Scientists in R&D primarily. Sometimes Robotics if they can swipe stuff from R&D. So you don't end up giving karma to admins, at least with the Special Verbs button, can't you make a list of admin ckeys/players with admin ckeys that would be blocked from that selection? Maybe for admins you can also omit the Give Karma right-click verb but that might give away an admin. Or you could have the function when used on an admin to just skip everything. That might be a little less obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTSAM Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Actually, would it be possible to show the karma-giver the normal message (Good karma spent on [x].) when they give an administrator karma, then return their chance to give it out secretly? Like... Urist McDude gives UristMcHeadcrab karma. UristMcHeadcrab is an administrator and doesn't require it. Urist McDude gets the "Good karma spent on" message, but they're allowed to spend it on someone again. This would work, right? [spoiler2]And sorry if this is basically what Tauka said, I'm too tired to be foruming.[/spoiler2] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldflame Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Actually, would it be possible to show the karma-giver the normal message (Good karma spent on [x].) when they give an administrator karma, then return their chance to give it out secretly? Like... Urist McDude gives UristMcHeadcrab karma. UristMcHeadcrab is an administrator and doesn't require it. Urist McDude gets the "Good karma spent on" message, but they're allowed to spend it on someone again. This would work, right? [spoiler2]And sorry if this is basically what Tauka said, I'm too tired to be foruming.[/spoiler2] they wouldn't give it out again and if they did they would know who the stealthmin was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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