Restrict Vampires from being able to use carp scroll

[Balthusdire]

Combinations that are too powerful are removed to prevent abuse. A hulk can not have carp projectile protection, or a double esword, a bunch of powerful genetics powers will cause you to die from genetic instability, carp should not be able to be combined with antags such as changelings or vampires, vampires especially.

 

Vampires are very dangerous in close quarters. They have excellent stun abilities with an AOE glare, a stunning shriek. They can summon bats to help them escape, they can shadowstep out or mist form away. They have an anti stun, they have thermal vision. A single full feeding will give most of these powers. Combining this with immunity to all projectiles is ridiculous. Now the obvious argument against this is that vampires dont have easy access to hulk, they don't get telecrystals or an uplink. While that is true, currently it is not working out that way. People are purposefully seeking out traitors to get carp fist, usually in exchange for completing their objectives. As well with the current round balance, traitors+ rounds are very common so having vamps and traitors in the same round is fairly likely. An obvious solution would be to crack down on friends seeking each other out to try to code word each other to get their carp, but that doesn't appear to be against the rules technically and much more importantly would require a ton of work from the admins. The simplest solution is simply to make it so a vampire can not use a carp scroll. If they want to get syndie equipment they still can to help them, but not something quite that incredibly over powered.

[Kyet]

IMHO, sleeping carp should not be in the game at all.

• Total immunity to ranged attacks is quite simply too strong. Most attacks in the game, certainly most of the higher-end ones, are ranged. It might as well be 'total immunity to a majority of all attacks in the game'. That's too strong.
• It is ridiculous. You can't parry a bullet. Even if you were fast enough to parry or dodge one bullet, there comes a point with enough bullets where it is physically impossible to dodge no matter how fast you are. This is even sillier in the case of lasers. How are you going to deflect a laser with your bare hands? It is impossible. It reaches new heights of absurdity when you talk about things like missiles, or x-ray lasers. How exactly are you going to parry an x-ray laser which is totally unaffected by solid matter, and will pass right through your hands even if you were magically fast enough to even catch it?
• It is cheesy as hell. The voice quips you do when you're using carp sound like they came out of a terrible and slightly racist kung fu movie.

 

That said, I realize some people might like sleeping carp.

If sleeping carp has to remain in the game:

• It should not be possible to use carp as a vampire. The combination is too strong. It forces everyone else to engage the vamp in melee range, where they are strongest, it negates the vamp's main weakness (ranged weapons), and its 'tradeoff' (inability to use ranged weapons) is irrelevant to vamps as they don't need ranged weapons anyway.
• It should not confer 100% invincibility to ranged weapons. Even 90% is probably too much. At most, it could give you total immunity to a narrow class of ranged attacks, like tasers. Or it could give you 75% immunity to all ranged attacks. Or it could give you the ability to dodge 1 projectile per second, but NOT more then that. Or it could only function against attacks from more than 3 tiles away. There should be *some* limit such that a full squadron of guys shooting you at point-blank range with assault weapons CAN kill you. Otherwise it just produces insane results like a full squad of ERT emptying their guns at one guy, three tiles away, and missing every single shot. That's just flat-out impossible, overpowered, and it breaks suspension of disbelief.

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by tzo

[ZN23X]

People who love easy mode use carpire. I could give an inexperienced player carp n full powered vamp and they would have a hard time getting out robusted. Then people will shower praise on them for being super robust. Theres a difference between being robust and abusing game mechanics as much as possible. People often mistake the latter for being robust.

[WingedYordle]

Wolf only uses sleeping carp as traitor.

[davidchan]

carp and vampire probably represent two of the worst kinds of game design for SS13, both need to be looked and and tweaked accordingly. Carp shouldn't be more than 50% given that it triples your unarmed attack (effectively welder punches) and gives you a bunch of speshul moves including two garunteed disarms and two stuns, plus a massive damage to anyone prone or in crit finisher.

[SkeletalElite]

Yeah making carp not work for vampire's seems fine but all of these complaints about having it nerfed seem unwarranted to me as pretty much every suggested nerf would do pretty much the same thing that happened to the missionary staff, it will go from a good item to something you only used because it came in your crate.

 

Maybe nerf some of the other stuff but the ranged immunity is why you buy carp scroll, not the melee combos or melee damage. Without ranged immunity all that stuff is pretty much just worse than desword except for the really good grabs.

Edited April 22, 2018 by SkeletalElite

[R1f73r]

In my honest opinion it isn't carp that needs nerfing but mainly vampire glare. It being SO potent at later stages of the game on top of the rest of the abilities is what makes carp-pire so string.

[Rurik]

Quote

If sleeping carp has to remain in the game:

It should not be possible to use carp as a vampire. The combination is too strong. It forces everyone else to engage the vamp in melee range, where they are strongest, it negates the vamp's main weakness (ranged weapons), and its 'tradeoff' (inability to use ranged weapons) is irrelevant to vamps as they don't need ranged weapons anyway.

It should not confer 100% invincibility to ranged weapons. Even 90% is probably too much. At most, it could give you total immunity to a narrow class of ranged attacks, like tasers. Or it could give you 75% immunity to all ranged attacks. Or it could give you the ability to dodge 1 projectile per second, but NOT more then that. Or it could only function against attacks from more than 3 tiles away. There should be *some* limit such that a full squadron of guys shooting you at point-blank range with assault weapons CAN kill you. Otherwise it just produces insane results like a full squad of ERT emptying their guns at one guy, three tiles away, and missing every single shot. That's just flat-out impossible, overpowered, and it breaks suspension of disbelief.

If carps anti range capabilties are nerfed to less than 70% or outright removed, the TC price will need to be adjusted to allow a single buy of adrenals (Aka 12 TC). Otherwise you risk letting it fall into irrelevancy, since almost everyone only buys carp for anti range, and nothing more.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Rurik

[R1f73r]

vampires already have built in adrenals really, with their rejuvination ability.

47 minutes ago, Rurik said:

If carps anti range capabilties are nerfed to less than 70% or outright removed, the TC price will need to be adjusted to allow a single buy of adrenals (Aka 12 TC). Otherwise you risk letting it fall into irrelevancy, since almost everyone only buys carp for anti range, and nothing more.

 

[Anticept]

Vamp glare: if you're a vamp wearing flash proof, glare shouldn't work.

Goon has it that if your target has flash proof, then it won't work on them either, but ehhhh.

Completely agree that vamps shouldn't be able to use sleeping carp at all. Honestly, nobody should roll multiple antags at once without admin intervention. Cooperation though, I am fine with (if a traitor gives a vamp an item, that's fine).

Edited April 23, 2018 by Anticept

[Rurik]

2 hours ago, R1f73r said:

vampires already have built in adrenals really, with their rejuvination ability.

My bad, forgot to quote Tzu's post, was replying to him instead of OP. Edited.

[davidchan]

You're forgetting that an e-sword can be disarmed and used against the traitor, which is partially why it's allowed to be so powerful. Carp has no such downside and not factoring that into 'but DE-sword does this!' argument is plain ignorance.

[bryanayalalugo]

Vampires with carp are literally the worst thing to deal with as Security.

Not only do you have to get close to the vampire to the vampire, but chances are that you will end up being glared, a ability which in itself only activates if said vampire is next to a mob, making it a almost 100 percent guaranteed stun. 

And in most cases, the only few ways to deal with a vampire with carp is only if you gang up on them with several people, and that's if said people get organized, and chances are that by the time Security realize this, the vampire is already powered and with Security gear.

It honestly makes, a often times strong antag (if they survive into late in the round) a unbalanced antag. 

In my opinion, they shouldn't be able to be able to acquire/use carp at all.

[The Respected Man]

I counter them with explosive lances that might blow a hole into the station in order to ensure the kill of the carppire. I rather they not be able to be a vampire and have carp so i don't have to resort to explosions as fun as that may be. 

[ZN23X]

6 hours ago, The Respected Man said:

I counter them with explosive lances that might blow a hole into the station in order to ensure the kill of the carppire.

I think I'm finally gonna learn how to make explosive lances now.

Leave it to McAllister to have a solution for dealing with carpire. Good stuff lol

Edited April 28, 2018 by ZN23X

[Anticept]

You have to be really careful with them though.

I think one of the reasons you rarely see them, is the server rule about bombs.

Of course, you're an admin, so "contact the admins about it" doesn't really apply to you, but to anyone else making bombs to deal with antags, seriously, ahelp first. Even an accidental bombing is gonna get you looked at with tilted heads.

That said, smaller bombs that don't breach the floor seem reasonable and I doubt a min will be opposed... just make sure you tell them so when the explosion log comes up, they don't have to do tons of research and come at you aggravated.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Anticept

[ZN23X]

I was joking. I will quite literally never use explosive lances. As I've explained many times before, I don't try that hard.

I'd also never use carpire

[Anticept]

You just about have to for carppires or carplings. There's not much else that really works to an effective degree.

[ZN23X]

I know. I usually just avoid them or die and laugh at the fan girls cheering about how robust they are.

...and make fun of them a bit via adminbus. Cuz they deserve it

Edited May 3, 2018 by ZN23X
Badminbus