So, civilian firearms and space law

[shazbot194]

So with my latest PR, I am trying to add a lot more firearms onto the server, including adding some civilian firearms to cargo. @ZN23X has brought up the point that this can start being legal hell with space law. After a little bit of talking, I think we could change space law a little to help accommodate this. First off, I think we should classify firearms, and other weapons, into four classes, class one, class two, and class three, and destructive weapons. This would help with dealing with people who have small guns and other items not be arrested the same way as if they had something like a full automatic weapons, while providing a tiny amount of leeway into what is classified as what.

Class one is weapons that are lethal, but not excessively so. This normally means civilian weapons that would most likely already be overlooked. Firearms such as the double barrel, makeshift shotguns, the civilian pump action, or the 9mm civilian pistol with a short 6 round magazine. Other weapons such as hatchets and sharp knifes carried as weapons could qualify for this. You would be able to get a permit from the HoP or security to carry these, but even as the HoP, you need to inform security that you have given out a weapon license, and for firearms, put the firearm's name on the paperwork. There could even be a clause in the permit to limit what kind of ammo is allowed for shotguns. The HoS can also ban the HoP from giving out permits and  the HoP may be held accountable for any crimes committed with firearms they gave out permits for.

Class two is for weapons that are deadlier then class one, but can still be considered civilian-esk firearms. These would include upgraded civilian arms with bigger magazines and military style firearms that are in some way limited. In my pull, these would include the 9mm civilian pistol with the full 15 round magazine, the sporting rifle with short magazines, and potentially the enforcer and riot shotgun. Only the Warden, HoS, and Captain can issue these permits. 

Class three is weapons that are considered military grade firearms. Firearms such as the combat shotgun, the sporting rifle with 30 round magazines, the 9mm civilian pistol with 30 round magazines, suppressed pistols, and other weapons that are deadly enough to take on security or be considered tool of espionage. Other weapons like green chainsaws may also count as class three weapons. You need a permit from either the HoS or Captian to have these and are issued on a per piece scale, for instance, you need one specifically for the suppressor if you want to use it on a class one 9mm civilian pistol and another if you want to also have a sporting rifle with extended magazines.

Destructive weapons are weapons that are normally not legal to own under any circumstances. Mostly firearms like an automatic sporting rifle fall into this category. You need a permit from both the HoS and the Captain in order to own these. However, if you do have a destructive weapon permit for a weapon, you may modify the weapon however you wish.

Self defense would also need a clause saying that if a person used excessive force was used when defending themselves, they can still be charged with whatever crime corresponds, be it battery, assault, or manslaughter. 

As for security arming themselves with the new firearms, it should fall into what it was before. Where they need permission to have lethal weapons unless there is a dire need, IE giant spiders.

During states of emergency, IE nuke ops, the HoS and Captain can lift the requirements on permits, such that the whole crew can arm up to deal with the threat. 

So what do you guys think? Would this be an ok system, or should we stick with the current system we already have?

Edited June 13, 2017 by shazbot194

[willior13]

I like the idea, I want to be okay with holding a makeshift shotgun when changelings are on the prowl and on the flip side, if you are traitoring, you can get one and wreak some incredible damage with a class one weapon or two.

Now, would sawn-off shotguns, both makeshift and riot, would those go into class two or three, since they can easily be concealed. I would say that sharpened knives and if you can sharpen hatchets, those should go under class one unless it is being used by their respective occupations. (Chef and Botanist) 

I am thinking that your ID should get a marking to show that you can carry a weapon like this near the bottom right of an ID, it could be updated by the HoP and colored red if that takes your fancy.(pardon the crap look, did this in 30 seconds and didn't care enough to make it fancy) 

[shazbot194]

I personally think that the makeshift shotgun should just be a class one since even sawn off, its still kinda bad, and the riot would stay a class two, just because it's firepower is still the exact same, although I also think the laws should have leeway in that the HoS and Captian can change what qualifies as a class one, two, and three, for instance, lets say there is a problem on station with concealable shotguns, IE sawn offs, they can change what class they are to better match what is going on station at that time. Since every shift is different and we may not be able to predict if having sawn off riot guns being a class two would be a massive problem or not one at all, or if it flip flops back and forth without any rule changes.

I do like the idea that when you have the allowed to carry firearms tag on your ID it would put a small sticker on it. Maybe we could have the weapon permit be an actual print out and when you swipe it on an ID, it applies the permit number to your ID. This way we don't have a lot of variation in paperwork.

So, take two. I just finished writing what is above, I had an awesome idea. What if for issuing permits, we had a big computer system that keeps a catalog of guns you will/can find on station. This would make it easier to keep tabs on what weapons are class one, two, three, and DWs and also make it easier to update this records when a weapon changes class due to the HoS and Captian changing it. It would also give out printouts that hold all the permit's info and let you apply a sticker to the corresponding person's ID with the permit number. And as for making those two sawn offs, I don't think the makeshift shotgun should change because it is still very weak, I'm not 100% sure about the riot shotgun since it is quite powerfull but I'm not sure if its a class three lever powerful.

[FlattestGuitar]

I think this is a horrible idea.

The amount of text you needed to describe these classes makes me firmly believe in the fact that this will be impossible to enforce.

Civilians with firearms means either powerful antagonists or validhunt extravaganza. This will not lead to anything positive in terms of gameplay or roleplay.

[Purpose2]

Civilians with firearms. Oh god no. Do you guys even play the same game as me?....

[necaladun]

I do not see this having a positive effect on the server at all. Civilians having guns like this would be terrible for valid hunting among many other reasons.

[Sothangel]

Yeah, I'm against this entirely. I don't see arming the masses having any good results whatsoever.

[Enginseer-42]

It would lead to less disarm slapfests if only because people could shoot at you.

[GuiltyBeans]

Arming the crew this way would promote something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Valid hunting.. In a Medium RP server like Paradise, a civilian/assistant is there to sign up for a job late shift if needed, visit friends or learn things as needed. Other civilian roles, like cargo, medbay and science, to name a few of all the roles, don't have a reason to carry a firearm due to their job. Past MANY IC reasons NT wouldn't allow it, the OOC reasons, like valid hunting, amass quickly. 

It's easier to break up a disarm spam-fest than it is to revive someone who's head was nearly blasted off from two point blank improvised shells.

[Enginseer-42]

And? You can get improvised shells NOW. Heck, theoretically you can even have a permit for them.

[MarsMond]

The argument that it would result in less violence as everyone would have a gun, and such, would get shot if they use it, akin to mutual assured destruction, doesn't really work here, we already do get people spacewalking without protection, suicide bombing, walking into a xeno nest without the right protection, stuff like that shouldn't happen either if M.A.D. would work for this game. Engaging someone in melee does put you at greater risk, takes more time, and as we wouldn't get shrapnels into the person, less time to fix it if it gets lethal. Think that's one reason why normal lethals are laser weaponry:
You shouldn't want to kill, and if you shoot someone with lasers, and they fall down from being at -0 to -50, they are dealt with, without killing them, given they can't heal. Once you neutralized every (humanoid) threat that way, you can savely drag them to med-/brigbay in cuffs, apply some silver sulfandize, and they are fully healthy again. If you try to do that with ballistics, they can bleed out, shrapnels/broken bones will fuck them up if you drag them to medical care, medical care consists of healing the brute damage, multiple surgeries to remove the shrapnels, fix the bones, stop internal bleeding, fix organs that also got damaged, and afterwards you will need to restore their blood, probably also keep supplying them with oxy-loss meds to counter the damage from a low blood level.
Don't think spread out balistics will work for this server, the guns itself, and maybe such a system to backtrack weapons permits and such, should be nice, but well, way more restricted.

[Enginseer-42]

I didn't mean to suggest that MAD would hold. I merely mean to say this would shift the balance of power towards those willing to RP for tools and access.

[EvadableMoxie]

Classifying weapons is all well and good.  I don't have a problem with it and it kind of makes sense. 

I don't like the idea of permits though. As it stands, who gets to carry a weapon and who doesn't is outlined by Space Law and SOP.  These decisions are above anyone on the station. Even the Captain can't legally allow security to start carrying lethals on a green alert. Yes, there are exceptions but they are extremes in which pretty much all SOP is ignored, like with nuke Ops. 

What this would do is create an odd double standard where the HoP can put a gun into the hands of civilians but the HoS and security remain tied to rules beyond their control. This makes little sense from a roleplaying perspective.

From a mechanics perspective, everyone who needs lethal weaponry has rules about what they can carry and when they can carry it. So when would we ever need to put guns into the hands of people who don't need them, when the station is still functional enough for permits to matter? I can't really think of many legitimate reasons.

 

1 hour ago, Enginseer-42 said:

I didn't mean to suggest that MAD would hold. I merely mean to say this would shift the balance of power towards those willing to RP for tools and access.

You're more optimistic than I am.  I would say it would shift the balance of power towards those with a lot of meta-buddies in positions to give out weapons. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by EvadableMoxie

[Enginseer-42]

Actually, to correct you. Both the head of security AND the captain can pass out weapons permits to any crew member they please under current space law.

This is something that's already in the system. It's just rarely used Because the only firearms are the hilariously lethal shotguns.

[GunDOS]

I'll have to say I disagree with this. You already get problems with weaponised civies on nuke or blob rounds. I don't  want those problems permanent.

[necaladun]

Weapon permits currently can be for any weapon, rarely firearms. I most often see it for gateway explorers actually.

[Someonewithapen]

I'm gonna go ahead and also disagree with this. On the rare occasion where killing the Nuke Ops/Blob doesn't end the round, it's a pain in the ass as it is to wrangle every civilian with a firearm without a random search, because no assistant believes in turning in their firearm to security. As much as I love to throw auto-rifles and combat shotguns at the greytide and tell them to deal with my problems, those are only good where our only strength is in numbers, such as hostile lifeforms/corporations invading the station with zero regard to subtlety, dealing with the aftermath of that and asshole tourists who practically glue their new gun to their hand is a massive clusterfuck already, making it so they're allowed to carry will just lead to more problems and more HoS suicides.

 

Another problem I see with this is an increase in Code 211s, Abuse of confiscated equipment. Even if Security is allowed to confiscate weapons if they're used improperly, what're the chances those weapons are squirreled away into the armory, or an officer's pocket instead of an evidence locker, and that would just cause a nesting doll of IAA issues.

 

I think the final argument against this will ultimately be: The Cyberiad is a research station, not a military outpost. Considering the number of important personnel, delicate research, and things that can potentially explode, it totally makes sense that, permit to carry or otherwise, weapons other than those authorized by either Security, whoever is in charge of sending crates to cargo when they whine for shotguns, or Central Command themselves aren't allowed as part of company policy, and for good lore and gameplay reasons.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Someonewithapen