Surrealistik Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Per the title; the balance benefits are obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 This won't end well... But yes, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinMartian34 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 So basically take the taze function out of tazers? I'm neutral on this, and honestly probably wouldn't care one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 It's what we had before instastun was crammed down our throats, except a bit more balanced. Though I would in no way object to hallos returning, I know that ain't happening. So we'll try for stamina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
improvedname Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 So basically take the taze function out of tazers? I'm neutral on this, and honestly probably wouldn't care one way or the other. >not letting the taze do more stamina damage since it costs more energy >disablers should obv be weaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannhawk Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 i want this! it would also be nice for thrown active stunbatons to instastun people for those who cant deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox McCloud Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Again? This gets old. Yes, we had pure insta-stun. Yes, it was controversial. Then we switched over to the current system we have where ranged instant-stuns were nerfed and stamina damaged was introduced on the hybrid tasers. This proposed system received overwhelming support by the forums--after it was slotted in and used for a couple of weeks, there was another vote on it that came up; the community re-affirmed that they liked the current system that we have and utilize. About 2-3 months after that, yet another vote came up on this exact same topic, and the community, again affirmed that they didn't want the current system changed. Relevant points (some re-hashed; some new): - Instant stun vs stamina is largely irrelevant when it comes to deal with basic law breakers; if anything, here, instant-stun is preferred, since officers need to be able to deal with greytiding lawbreakers with ease. - Most antags have both a ranged and melee instant-stun; officers not having them and antags having them is unfair and will lead to unbalances in terms of combat. - Most antags have ways to counter or out and out nullify instant-stun damage - Stuns have already been nerfed quite significantly (if you can bother to invest a modicum of time to counter them), in their current state: Goonchem has quite a few combat drugs that are easily available, which dramatically weakens instant-stuns impacts; we've also received an armor rework which also impacts the duration tasers have; It's super easy to get your hands (or paws!) on a few basic chems that make you incredibly difficult for a single security officer to handle (we can also add a few more to vending machine junk to help this out even further). - A lot of pre-existing gears are now pretty tightly locked in with isntant-stuns (ranged or otherwise); this is even more so now than it was 4 months ago, as we have more and more mechanics and game-modes that operate under the pretense of this mechanic existing. A quick example: nukies will generally steam-roll everything if the only thing they're coming up against are disabler shots. Other point - Halloss is dead; it ain't comin' back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Instastun wasn't really 'nerfed'. It was given a two second delay and a range. That's all. And your argument on greytide? Any doofus with a disabler can take them down quite easily. Also, the greytide isn't as bad as valid hunting security. Seriously, instastun ENCOURAGES valid hunting. Antags with instastun, you say? Gee, not like you were the one that put in a lot of that shit before giving sec instastun. Sure, lings had parasting and traitors had sleepy pens (Ebows only dealt rad damage or some shit at one point I THINK.) and wizards had MM (which was easy enough to run from.). But Nuke Ops? That came from /tg/. Goonchem has combat drugs? Ok, great. Have fun getting a chemist to make you some. Are you saying we can't make nuke ops taser shotguns do stamina damage? Probably not that hard to do. Nuke ops as it is always get ripped to shreds most rounds anyways... All in all, this was a system that you forced on us. We were mostly just fine before it. Having an instant 'I WIN' button doesn't make the game fun. And I play security officer often. It's boring as fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox McCloud Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 You really need to let this grudge go. Yes, I slotted in instant ranged tasers with very little input--then I put up the current hybrid system--it even got a vote before it was slotted in--and, again, the community affirmed they wanted the hybrid system and has re-affirmed, since it was slotted in twice that they like the current system and do not want it to change. You can argue til you're blue in the face that you don't like the current system, and that's fine--but saying the community doesn't want or doesn't like it is out of step with the statistical data and trend. Other points: - A player can get nearly 5 disabler shots off in the time they can only get a single taser shot off--meaning they can nearly stun two people for the price of one, if they're good--not to mention the taser shot is going to fizzle and not go through windows+grills. It's different tools for different scenarios. Compare this to unlimited range unlimited firing speed tasers where you could literally down an entire crowd with ease. If you can't see this as a nerf to tasers, then you're not making a rational argument. - Yes, they can take them down, but it requires significantly more time to do so as they flip, flail, and flop around all over; officers wasting more time on dealing with greytide inevitably means the antags have a far far easier time to do waht they need to do since any Joe McGreytide can take up wayyyy more of an officers time just by being a base level jerk (and I'm not even talking about griefy actions, just IC stuff they're not meant to do). - Antags have and had instant-stuns even when we had HalLoss---vamps, wizards, lings, regular traitors, and nukies. Every single one (and most still do)---this was before I had ported a single thing from TG. This was part of my motivation for switching over to instant-stuns to begin wtih; to even things out so they weren't so one-sided (and no, it wasn't the sole reason; that's been detailed at insane length months ago). - There's base level combat drugs that are insanely easy for any crew member to get their hands on at just about any point in the round with minimal effort that doesn't involve asking for illegal substances or bothering the chemist in the hopes that he gives you something. - No--I wasn't even thinking of that; just their regular bullets. The nature of their bullets dealing both damage and stamina damage inherently stacks the deck in their favor in any event combat scenario where they're not fighting against an instantaneous stun--especially considering the armor values that Syndies have and what the armor covers vs what the crew has. This is largely already balanced and accounted for; there's not a whole lot of reason to stack the deck in antags favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 This isn't a grudge, Fox. I'm sorry you don't like my opposite opinion, but I will continue to present it when asked. This topic is about removing instastun, so I inserted my opinion. Gee, community doesn't want it, but look, a member of the community (that wasn't me.) just put up a topic for it, and a few people so far on this topic (and a discussion on the IRC yesterday which had even more people agreeing with it.) seem to be agreeing with it. This wasn't me this time. Maybe if you had actually talked with the community about this the first time, we wouldn't be here now (or so often). I'm pretty sure most of us voted for the hybrid system was because we knew you weren't going to bring Halloss back anytime soon (And I can even remember you closing down a PR of Mark's because he tried restoring it after the first community vote. We all knew it wasn't coming back.) and because this at least was better than shitty complete all out instastun, though not by much. Even I voted for the hybrid system. Anyways... -Stun two people for the price of one? And unless they're in a mob, they ain't going to be killing/ cuffing them both easily, and even if they are in a mob, they were fucked to start with (The two being stunned). And yes, the range isn't that much of a nerf, and yes, I'm aware it doesn't go through grilles/ windows. Ok, then, remove disabler's ability to go through windows/ grilles. Ok, great, done. Issue solved. -That's the fun part, honestly. And if they do some illegal OOC shit... we have the F1 ahelp button for a reason. -Take up an officers time? What, thirty more seconds? Ok. -Well then, that could have very well been discussed and we could have come up with ways to fix that. Some of these have already been fixed or could possibly (I saw that word cautiously) easily be made to use stamina or enlarge the amount of time before they can use their powers again. -Ok, I'll give you this point. Though not too many people ever use these chemicals or know how to make them. -While on the subject of Goon, I might also add that even they stopped using instastun with their tasers (And I know how much Goon likes their big explody cool things. So if they nerf something like tasers... shouldn't that say something?) -Why not? Antags should be able to put up a fight, I think. And, uh... Nuke Ops are kind of always fighting against instastun. Even with the Eshields, something will always stop them. I never see Nuke Ops win unless they are EXTREMELY competent. What the chances are and what actual gameplay gives are two different things. I always find it boring as an officer now. It's too easy for me, most rounds, and when it isn't, it's because security is trying to arrest me or I'm being surrounded by a mob. You could just give the officers the disablers when they come onto the station, but leave the current hybrid tasers in the armory where they are. That, I think, would be alright. HoS could possibly have the instastun feature as well with their HoS gun, since the HoS is kind of meant to be OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Theeeeere we go again. Well why not lets give it another try. I'm for this, I dont like insta-stun tasers and halloss tasers were superior anyways. And no, I didnt read what Fox said (or spacemanspark, for that matter), not even skimmed over it b'coz I reeaaaalllyyyy don't need to see that ONCE MORE. Also I want to make an observation. When batons were changed from insta-stun to haloss (or stamina, whatever), people at first were "WTF BATON USELESS" but then after a while they liked it. This didn't happen with tasers. NO IT DID NOT, don't tell me otherwise. People just got sick of Spaceman's bitching and prefered to drop the point and deal with it rather than seeing YET ANOTHER taser thread full of butthurt. I know because that was my case and many people told me the same pretty much. Whatever, there is my vote, now I'm out of this shitstorm. [spoiler2]And honestly I'd rather listen the opinion of a player who plays fucking always as sec, everyday, rather than someone who plays as bartender.[/spoiler2] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Kinda with Adr on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthdivine Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 [spoiler2]And honestly I'd rather listen the opinion of a player who plays fucking always as sec, everyday, rather than someone who plays as bartender.[/spoiler2] So neither of them :v EDIT: I'm not shit posting, gunna write up my feelings on this when I get home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I have stopped playing security frequently recently, but I plan on getting back into it soon. Mostly because I have a lot on my plate at the moment and I'm actually studying while playing. I'd like to believe I still know what I'm talking about, however. I'll probably just step out of this topic shortly, everyone knows my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qinetix Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 #hybridstunbattons, because why not. No, honestly, I would rather have both options rather than only one, since , you know, insta-stun electrodes are great against dangerous and dumb people , while the disabler shots are great to attack and disable through windows and deals a longer stun after you landed all your shots, not to mention it fires faster, and honestly, I like the system as it is now. Also, did anyone hear of flashbangs? They are neat at crowd control and murderous AOE stun+blind, same goes with pepper spray, to a lesser extent. Remember when flashes were insta stun? Fun times, they are now rarely used and people don't even know its the single FUCKING weapon apart from the Ion Rifle where you can disable a borg or fucking EMAG it in time before it notices, it also disorients now in AOE, which is neat if it weren't a tad useless in a combat scenario. Also insta stun is a great punishment for those guys in Red Suits that come in to nuke us. You took a L6SAW and all the C4? Stun taser, take gun, punish the idiot for being unable to dodge a electrode. Should've went for the Eshield. ITS SUPOSED to be a Highly Secure Research Station, but it sometimes feel like an Asylium people are sent to in order to DIE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumiluntti Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I have not changed my opinion on instastuns. They have proven again and again to be complete shit. I'm not going to spend any more time on this thread. My opinion has been thrown in and the facts to support my point have been said multiple times in older threads and in here. PS. Having a different opinion and standing by it is not grudging, holy shit fox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
improvedname Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I mean like if you had a health system like goonstation where you can move and do shit when on crit with only the chance to fall down or trying to recover yourself while in crit then i wouldnt be against insta stuns but insta stuns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KasparoVv Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Doesn't feel broken, why fix it? From my POV it's perfect the way it is but I don't really know as I'm only ever on the receiving end of stuns and such. Guess there's always something to complain about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Hey, thats a pretty unhealthy outlook Kasparo. Good changes aren't bad just because they are "change" And whats damned wrong with trying to improve the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArgyleSweatShop Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 If tasers get their instastun removed, then flashes need to get their instastun back. Flashes used to be what made security able to be good. Tasers and stunbatons can be used against people. Flashes were great because they caused instastun, but the items which stopped a flash were acquirable. Yes, you can make a shitload of chemicals to stop instastun, but you have to be a chemist or a scientist to make them without suspicion. I would support tasers being made into disablers completely if and only if flashes regain instastun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 You don't have permission to die, thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomzy Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Sadly, this is probably going to end unchanged, despite the great amount of players standing up for this point. Here's to all of our community's fallen opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Hmmm..... I wonder if this would get more attention if "someone" posted a PR to do revert the insta-stun tasers to what they were long ago... :^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 If I knew how, It would have been made months ago. Of course, I could just ask a baydev to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The OLD, OLD ban halloss tasers were broken due to how they were coded. We shouldn't revert back to those. The current stamina damage thing should be modified to be the single tasing method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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