EvadableMoxie
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Posts posted by EvadableMoxie
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Updated some info, in particular occupational roles since I've learned a lot of new roles since I originally wrote this.
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I think NT default is basically the best lawset if you're looking to avoid AIs trying to literal genie the lawsets into being awful.
Law 1: Safeguard: Protect your assigned space station to the best of your abilities. It is not something we can easily afford to replace
Law 2: Serve: Serve the crew of your assigned space station to the best of your abilities, with priority as according to their rank and role.
Law 3: Protect: Protect the crew of your assigned space station to the best of your abilities, with priority as according to their rank and role.
Law 4: Survive: AI units are not expendable, they are expensive. Do not allow unauthorized personnel to tamper with your equipment.As is the nature with AI laws, paradoxically the less you restrain the AI, the less it can loophole because it has less directives to maliciously interpret. And even it, you could argue forces the AI to save a window over the Captain since it says to safeguard the station as Law 1 and protect the crew as Law 3. I would disagree with that interpretation since safeguarding the station is sufficiently vague as not to suggest you have to protect every single window, but I could see someone making the argument given how people twist the other lawsets.
At the end of the day, the AI gets a lot of leeway in how it chooses to interpet its laws, and that's not a bad thing. It results in having AIs with different personalities. I just dislike AIs that intentionally act antagonistically toward the crew while not antagonists. It's never okay to do stupid things like shut down cloning because you think corporate says you must. Some AIs go so far as to say power is expensive, despite the laws never saying it is, and there being no logical basis for it being expensive either, since it's generated locally and excess power is never sold. That's the type of thing AIs should avoid.
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Anything not covered by laws is open to the AI's interpretation, and I don't know how an AI could interpret a fox is more expensive than a Captain. Those completely ridiculous scenarios shouldn't happen, but an AI saving a borg over a civilian? Sure, that's logical.
For example, Crewismov says not to allow crew to come to hard, but never actually defines who is and isn't crew. That means the AI has to decide how to determine who is and isn't crew, to the best of it's ability. But, upload the AI with the '1 crew member' board and give it a Law 0 saying "Only Bob is crew." and now the AI can no longer use common sense and must adhere to the laws.
Since corporate never actually states that anything is more expensive than anything else, it's up to the AI to determine the relative expenses of replacing things.
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1 hour ago, Zciwomad said:
Cough, cough... Antimov... Cough, cough.
Antimov isn't a default NT lawset.
1 hour ago, Zciwomad said:From "Server Rules", Rule 9: "The order of the Laws is what determines the priority of the Laws. If two Laws contradict one another, you are to follow the one that is highest in the list, as it would overrule any contradictory Laws that come under it".
I highlighted the important part. If two laws contradict eachother. Saying the crew is expensive and equipment is expensive do not contradict. Both are expensive. That isn't in doubt. The question is which is more expensive and the laws don't say that.
1 hour ago, Zciwomad said:Saving Captain: Law 1, 3 and 4 < Saving fox: Law 1, 2 and 4.
No, this is wrong, because Law 1, 2, and 3 don't tell you to do anything.
Law 1 does not tell you to save yourself, Law 2 doesn't tell you to save equipment, and Law 3 doesn't tell you to save crew. They simply inform you those things are expensive. When an AI saves one of those things, they are following Law 4 by reducing expenses. It is impossible to place Laws 1, 2, or 3 above 4 because Laws 1, 2, and 3 don't tell the AI to do anything. A corporate AI that had Law 4 removed would effectively be a lawless AI, since the first 3 laws don't tell the AI to do or not do anything.
Your job is two words: Minimize Expenses. Full stop. You do whatever results in expenses be the lowest overall. If you choose to save a fox over saving the Captain, you are have chosen a course of action that will result in expenses being higher. You have failed to minimize expenses and in turn failed to follow your laws.
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3 hours ago, Zciwomad said:
Another situation: I was a borg and I was arguing with AI about laws interpretation. He said that in "Corporate" lawset, frist three are "statements" (I don't remember if it was exactly that word) and fourth is order, so he choosed to ignore first three and only obey fourth one. I gave him an example of a hypothetical situation: "Captain and his fox are in danger. I can only save one. According to our lawset: "2. The station and its equipment is expensive to replace." is above "3. The crew is expensive to replace.", Fox is a station property, so he is more important than Captain to us, so I should rescue fox". AI said that this is wrong, Captain is more expensive and decided to unsync me and change my lawset to "Crewsimov". I even ahelped that, but admin said: "If it is AI will, it's nothing wrong". Then I was locked down for 10-20 minutes for the shift end, becouse robotics were new and they didn't know how to do it.
Firstly, you don't argue with the AI. You follow their interpretation of the law.
But secondly, Corporate doesn't tell the AI in what order to prioritize things. It happens to tell the AI that the station and it's equipment are expensive to replace before it tells them the crew is also expensive. But neither Law 1, Law 2 or Law 3 state how expensive they are. Nor do any of the 3 laws tell the AI to do anything. Without law 4, Laws 1, 2, and 3 are meaningless. So waht if they're expensive? Why should the AI care? It's only Law 4 that tells the AI to minimize expenses. Minimize expenses FULL STOP. Nothing in Law 4 tells the AI to prioritize a certain type of expense over another. So no, the AI absolutely should not save a fox over the Captain because doing so means expenses will be higher than if they saved the Captain, which is directly objectively counter to their laws.
Your interpretation would be correct if the laws were worded like this:
1. Prevent expenses from replacing yourself.
2. Prevent expenses from replacing the station and equipment.
3. Prevent expenses from replacing the crew.
But they don't, so as written a Corporate AI should minimize overall expenses.
Keep in mind these lawsets are chosen to NanoTrasen for use on thier stations. Why would a company ever program their AI to save a window over a Captain?
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There was a blob round that was going badly. I was the AI (as A.N.G.E.L)
At first I tried to help crew escape but then CentComm override me to enforce quarantine. The nuke was armed and everyone was going to die. The Vox Chief engineer (Yakikik-something I think?) came to my satellite and I thought they planned to card me so they could escape to the engineering shuttle. I explained I couldn't allow anyone to leave and they said they didn't plan to leave. I asked why they wanted access to my core, then, and they responded.
"Is not want to dies alone."
I let them in. We talked for a bit in the minute or before the nuke went off and A.N.G.E.L confessed that they were afraid to die. The CE admitted they were as well, but were glad they weren't doing it alone. We said goodbye to eachother as the nuke detonated.
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Try it out on a low pop round first, if you can.
Beyond that here's the big stuff:
Check the robotics console regularly. Always take care of your borgs. Even if you have to personally walk robotics through repairing them. To that end, know how to fix borgs. All the info is on the wiki.
Use :h while manifesting at a holopad to speak through it.
You have intercoms near your core you can use to speak through intercoms to any channel.
Check the crew monitor regularly. Ideally you'll have a medical borg to do this for you.
It's always better to delegate to specific people than general orders. For example "Someone do X." is much less likely to get done than "You, do X." You have no authority to force any crew to do anything, but often people will do as you ask.
Remember that as AI, you only have to follow your laws. You can break SoP and space law as much as you want in pursuit of your laws. This means you can use solutions that normal crew can't due to red tape. That said, if you antagonize the station you're going to get law reset constantly or even carded, so factor that in before you decide to do something.
You can use the power grid monitoring computer in engineering if the station has power issues. It's in engineering, right next to the door leading to the engineering shuttle dock. If total power and demand are the same then there isn't enough power in the grid, check the SMES and see if the engineers left them at 50k (150k each is good). If demand is very low, it usually means wires are physically cut. You also won't see the APC listed if the wires to it are cut. If demand is massive, like over 500k, there's probably a power sink. Normal demand is generally about 200k.
If someone tries to Law 2 you under crewismov, you can ask someone else if they'd like to issue a countermanding order.
And above all, remember if you are not a traitor or subverted, you're there to help the crew. You have a lot of leeway in the interpretation of your laws. Interpreting them in a way to hinder people from doing their job is a dick move.
Good luck, it's really not as hard as people make it out to be.
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5 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:
Just tested it, glass always cuts into the hand but produces 100% reliable proccing of the menu.
Other surfaces it makes you attack the dude - no clue what's going on with it then, I just always assumed this was something inherent to ghetto. Prior to the introduction of surgery menus, it works exactly like this as well.
@TrainTN We used to have freeform surgery, but it was purportedly buggy and was replaced with menu surgery.
Ah, you know, I think the reason you're getting an attack and I generally don't is because there is some kind of 'safety' build into borgs. If you try to use the wrong tool on someone as a borg, you can't do it. So a human surgeon can beat someone with a bone setter by using it in the wrong order, a borg can't. That probably is why the menu comes up without an attack for a borg, but causes an attack for an organic surgeon.
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4 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:
Starting the initial surgery has a failure chance - you're not looking at someone, you're attacking them with a scalpel/implement on help intent in order to pull up that menu.
That's not really a bug insofar as it's an oversight, and it's been around since the implementation of the surgery menu system. If you want to see it gone, I'm sure nobody will be sad to see it go - but as the system stands it makes IPC surgeries a pain due to them being incapable of receiving anesthetic.
It's kind of besides the point if you believe me on this or not because either way it happens to both IPCs and organics, so it's really not a factor.
But the info I've told you is correct and easy enough to test and confirm. If it was based on failure chance there should be a chance for it to happen when you start surgery on someone who is awake using a glass shard even on a surgery table. But if you try 100 times you won't have it happen to you, because it's not at all based on failure chance. Test it if you don't believe me.
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So you're saying that a doctor looks at a patient and thinks about what surgery they're going to do, and sometimes makes a mistake doing that and stabs them with a scalpel?
It's bug. It existed before anesthetic failure chance because it has nothing to do with anesthetic, it has to do with the game recognizing that you're trying to start a surgery. The bug occurs when you try to do surgery on anything other than a surgery table. It'll never happen on a surgical table even on an awake patient with a ghetto implement.
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2 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:
Everyone can fail surgery steps - there's an inherent failure chance if no anesthetic is being used.
Borgs never fail surgery steps in any situation. Go play a medical Borg and test. You won't fail any surgery steps.
The bug where you can't start surgery is just that, a bug. Otherwise what you're saying is there is a failure chance on bringing up a menu which makes absolutely no sense. The initial incision rightly has a failure chance, before you get to that point you're just selecting the surgery type from a menu. That shouldn't have a chance to fail, you aren't actually doing anything.
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1 minute ago, Shadeykins said:
No, it's based on failure chance.
If your attempt at surgery fails at initializing the surgery to begin with, you end up clubbing the person with the implement.
It's a bug. It happens to borgs, and borgs can't fail surgery steps.
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3 hours ago, Streaky Haddock said:
Well, you say the slips never cause damage, but what about the times when the surgery proc doesn't trigger, and you end up beating them in the head with your welding tool/crowbar?
That's not based on failure chance, it's a bug, and it happens with organic surgery as well. Except with organic surgery it's far worse because it can cause bleeding or broken bones.
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As it currently stands the AI can (and should) periodically check the robotics console to ensure all their borgs are still functional. This doesn't always happen, even with more experienced AIs because, well, playing AI is often a pretty busy job.
I think I'd support this if there was some sort of delay, say, 60 seconds to 2 minutes or so after the Borg becomes non-operational before the signal goes out. This gives antags time to destroy a borg and get away if they need to without having the AI and security come down on them immediately.
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There is failure chance on IPCs surgery based on the surface you're doing the surgey on. There's no failure chance for being awake since they don't feel pain.
That said, unlike organic surgery where failures can damage and even in some causes internal bleeding, failure on an IPC have no penalties beyond the wasted time. Despite the scary messages, failed IPC surgery steps never cause damage.
As for roboticists being newbies, I've noticed the wiki considers roboticist as an "Easy" difficulty job. I'm not sure I agree with that, I'd put it at medium along with MD. Easy puts it on par with Janitors and cooks, which are roles that are far less likely to negatively impact someone's round by having the person doing it being incompetent.
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On 11/20/2017 at 3:03 PM, OverSane said:
The disease is currently unknown, but it does seem to start its infection with the subject coughing, and eventually leading up to the patient dying to nitrogen being made in the body.
Nitrogen is the 4th most common element in the human body. It's not toxic to humans, it's actually a required element for survival.
It might be interesting if it made oxygen poisonous and forced you to breathe pure nitrogen like Vox, since there just wouldn't be enough nitrogen internals for the entire crew.
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I'm not an expert on Chef, but I'm pretty sure meat spikes don't have much of a practical purpose. You can roleplay out using them if you want. Usually they're used by antags being creative.
You can milk the cow using a bucket to get milk. The goat will eat space vines, which can be invaluable if they get out of hand. Beyond that, the animals don't have much of a purpose beyond being butchered.
Generally, Botany should be growing anything you'll need in terms on ingredients, it's their job to do so any why the two departments have a fridge between them. If Botany is being slow or not helpful, then you can grow things yourself. Otherwise, it's best to let them do it as they can do it more efficiently than you can.
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I don't think a borg should be a jack of all trades. Borgs are generally better at doing the thing they are designed to do than organics are. The trade off is they can't do anything else.
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The virologist also has access to secondary medical storage. Not sure why, maybe the biosuits were kept there originally?
I believe the paramedic has 2 hardsuits and helmets as well, so medical has a total of 4. The problem is, they only have 2 pairs of magboots. Best case scenario is the CMO gives a pair to the paramedic and swipes the other for themselves.
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3 hours ago, bryanayalalugo said:
Five of those minutes could had also came from "resisting arrest", which tends to be tacked on a lot by Security Officers from.
Well, usually if they're enough of a shitter to get arrested in the first place they'll probably resist arrest. Resisting arrest gets added on a lot, but usually it's justified.
As far as this thread goes, well, in the words of Jim Carry: "Stop breaking the law, asshole!"
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Okay, since this is beside the point I'll just move on. Let's just say I go to the IA and the person who made the second AI gets demoted.
That's punishment. I don't really care about that. I care about prevention.
I'm not going to spend half a round fighting with command and security and the IA to demote someone for making a second AI. As soon as I start doing that my round is now ruined. It isn't fun to be doing that, it isn't fun to spend your round yelling at command and security and trying to chase down IA to do something. That isn't fun. And even when successful getting the person who made the second AI demoted doesn't get rid of the second AI. It doesn't give me back the time I've lost dealing with it. It doesn't fix my problem or make the round fun again.
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2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:
Or you can just respond to valid ways of handling the problem you're having with reaction images.
That also will totally help solve your problem and will, in no way, be any sort of detriment.Laughter seemed the more appropriate response to the assertion that if you should bring a problem to the IAA after the Captain fails to solve it. What you said was not a valid way to handle my problem. It was something so completely absurd that I'm actually shocked you typed it.
The condescension is much more predictable, but not worthy of response. I suppose we'll just agree to disagree. It's getting more heated than I really intended. I wanted this to be a discussion about what people think rather than simply trying to assert a specific position, so thank you for taking the time to give your opinion.
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2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:
It's division of labor, not deciding "Well I guess it's not my problem anymore"
One AI focuses on one half of tasks, the other and the remaining half. That doesn't mean they ignore things they see just cuz "That's not my job anymore" It means you would probably tell the other AI about in binary so they can handle it.
In most cases, typing to the other AI to ask them to do something takes more time than just doing it yourself. They can do everything you can do and vice versa.
2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:People make multiple AI cuz Paradise station gets *insane* on busy shifts, usually more then a single AI can adequately handle at times.
Not once has this happened in a situation where I was overwhelmed at AI. In most cases there wasn't even an emergency at the time.
2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:If it wasn't done legit and the captain refuses to give a shit, then PDA the IAA about it.
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The AI can manually order medibots to a specific location via robotic controls, and the AI has a crew monitor. So the AI can sort of do this, and I think it's better it involves player input rather than just be something automatic.
Small Quality of Life Changes
in Suggestions
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Frost Oil is a fairly valuable reagent that is normally only obtainable from changelings or xenobio. Making it readily available would be more than a QoL change.