EvadableMoxie
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Posts posted by EvadableMoxie
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Classifying weapons is all well and good. I don't have a problem with it and it kind of makes sense.
I don't like the idea of permits though. As it stands, who gets to carry a weapon and who doesn't is outlined by Space Law and SOP. These decisions are above anyone on the station. Even the Captain can't legally allow security to start carrying lethals on a green alert. Yes, there are exceptions but they are extremes in which pretty much all SOP is ignored, like with nuke Ops.
What this would do is create an odd double standard where the HoP can put a gun into the hands of civilians but the HoS and security remain tied to rules beyond their control. This makes little sense from a roleplaying perspective.
From a mechanics perspective, everyone who needs lethal weaponry has rules about what they can carry and when they can carry it. So when would we ever need to put guns into the hands of people who don't need them, when the station is still functional enough for permits to matter? I can't really think of many legitimate reasons.
1 hour ago, Enginseer-42 said:I didn't mean to suggest that MAD would hold. I merely mean to say this would shift the balance of power towards those willing to RP for tools and access.
You're more optimistic than I am. I would say it would shift the balance of power towards those with a lot of meta-buddies in positions to give out weapons.
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There should be a concept of "Mens Rea" when it comes to prosecuting someone for manslaughter. Their intentions and knowledge at the time are important to determining culpability.
There's a really cool blog that discusses all of this stuff here: http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=188
If someone wasn't at least reckless, they shouldn't be facing brig time, in my opinion.
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6 minutes ago, EldritchSigma said:
Well it should be actually hard and challenging then to get it done, I agree it shouldnt come free, but I also want to say that the way RnD is handled now is neither fun, nor engaging nor challenging.
That's fair, and for the record I'm not arguing for the current implementation and saying it's perfect or shouldn't change. I really don't have enough info to have an opinion on that.
I just take issue with one very specific argument that's been said here, the idea that RnD should be about giving out stuff instead of working for it. I think if RnD is going to have all the best rewards it should be something that takes considerable effort to do.
It's also difficult to judge how difficult it is and how long it will take. Yes, an experienced virologist can get virology done in 15 minutes (If they get good RNG) but I'm betting that wasn't the case the day after Virology changed.
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50 minutes ago, EldritchSigma said:
The point is that with these "nerfs" to fix powergaming.
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. The changelog states its to make RnD a station wide effort and powergaming isn't mentioned in the PR at all.
50 minutes ago, EldritchSigma said:The enjoyable part for me in RnD was handing out equipment to security, equipping medbay and upgrading stuff. Not doing this tedious annoying "insert shit into the machine" thing.
Sorry if this sounds indelicate but... it sounds an awful lot like what you are asking for is to get the benefits of a job without actually having to do the job.
Maybe mixing 2 chemicals and checking the Pandemic until RNG gives me the right symptoms isn't as fun as handing out my competed virus, but would you argue this means virologists should have completed beneficial viruses at round start? Maybe it isn't fun in Botany to plant things and just sit around waiting, but does this make just giving them mutated max yield plants at the start a good idea?
I just don't see why should RnD get access to all the best toys on the station, with a far wider selection and range of application and overall power level than any other department, without even having to put in an amount of effort comparable to the reward. RnD should be the hardest thing to do in the station, given that it gives by far the best and most powerful rewards.
13 minutes ago, shazbot194 said:R&D has never really been about getting tech levels but about distributing the equipment to all the different departments
Having everything handed to you and then playing Science Santa to decide who gets to share in all the toys you are given is hardly a 'job' in my opinion.
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2 minutes ago, Master_Exploder said:
Are you kidding? With two people R&D took an hour and 30 minutes! granted, no one's got R&D memorized, so that makes it take longer, but PLEASE, name ONE department that takes the entire game to set up.
I'm not a science player but wouldn't finishing RnD be finishing your job, not setting it up?
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2 hours ago, FlattestGuitar said:
The vast majority of the time I play spacemen I'm either Security or an Antagonist, so my view is pretty heavily skewed here, but I honestly don't feel like second-guessing every single thing your fellow crewmembers do is a healthy idea. We already have massive amounts of new players at places like Medbay and Engineering clearly not dealing with more chaotic antagonists. You'll see it almost every other round - bloody medbay with corpses all over the place as soon as something more chaotic than a glass of spilled whiskey happens. I have no solid data to back this up, but this isn't hard to notice if you look for it.
Yea, but that has to do with the fact that experienced players don't keep playing MD because Medbay is 100% reactive and relies on hoping that:
A: Antags will actually make the round interesting and give you something to do.
B: That if that happens the other departments deign to allow you to do your job instead of just waltzing in and taking whatever meds they want or helping themselves to cryo. Like, imagine if anyone could walk into Engineering and take hardsuits and stacks of metal and glass. Would you want to be an Engineer? Because that's what Medbay is like.
Experienced players don't exclusively or regularly play MD because MD is a mechanically weak and often unfun role. So that's why it's mostly new players who lack experience and thus you get shit Medbay.
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1 hour ago, Purpose2 said:
@ZN23X There is a huge difference between 'could be an antag' and 'definitely not'.
If you think they are 'definitely not' a traitor you might be in for a surprise when it turns out they are a Changeling. Or mind-slaved by a traitor. Or thralled by a vampire. Or Wolololol'd by a Chaplain. Or thralled by a shadowling. Or converted by a Cultist. Or they just decided to change preferences. Or they got adminbussed.
I really don't think this provides as much concrete knowledge as you are implying it does.
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I'd like this too. My character is too much of a good person to be an antag, and way to naive to ever pull it off if he was.
But until this happens, keep in mind you can still go Changeling. If you spawn as a changeling you aren't playing your character, you're playing a changeling that murdered your character and took their identity before the shift began. Bonus points for taunting all your friends about how you murdered yourself.
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30 minutes ago, Enginseer-42 said:
I don't see how it will get you banned?
Your kind of straight up admitting to Self-Antaging and distracting security here:
2 hours ago, Enginseer-42 said:I'm going to give you four general principles of Petty Crime and what I like to call 'Lesser Antagonism.' I call it that, because you're not a full blown antag, and shouldn't act like one, however your antics do serve as a distraction and smoke screen that might cover an antagonists tracks.
Rule 7:
QuoteActively diverting Security personnel and resources away from an active and direct Antagonist threat in order to deal with you and your actions will be considered Self-Antagging;
I can see how one might feel that a guide that advocates considering yourself a mini-antag and distracting security from actual antags isn't kosher.
Outside of that, I have to say that #2 is good advice, regardless of if you are a real antag, mini-antag or loyal NT employee. Anything you might need someone has access to, and often social engineering is a far better way to get it than brute force.
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I don't agree that most round are exclusionary, not in the same way cult rounds are. When I talk about people being excluded, I don't mean non-security not actively hunting antagonists, I'm talking about when that struggle doesn't effect anyone else.
If a traitor blows up the bar, Engineering is not excluded from the round, because now they have to fix it. Medical is not excluded from the round, because they have to deal with the injured and the casualties. They may never interact with the traitor directly, but they are included because they are effected. The problem with cultist rounds is what they do effects no one but security and whoever gets converted, right up until the final ritual. That's what makes that mode exclusionary in a way that other rounds are not. The cult has no incentive to interact with the station in any way, and all the incentive in the universe not to.
As for the more combat orientated rounds:
There is this idea that combat and RP are like matter and anti-matter. Ying and Yang. One is literally the opposite of the other, and never shall the two meet. This isn't unique to SS13, it's something I've seen in just about every RP community, and it's an idea I strongly oppose.
I instead try to forward the idea that combat is RP. Everything you do in combat or is done to you in combat is done in character. Not all characters fight the same way, react the same way to violence, or are willing to do the same things in combat. Combat is one of the ways in which your character is most strongly defined, because often your values will face the ultimate test with your life on the line.
For example the last wizard round I played in, I was an MD and I died trying to get the cluwned CMO's brain into a new body. Why did I bother doing that? Why not ignore them? Or even beat them to death, since Cluwnes have no protection? Or maybe just save myself by moving to a safer place? Because it's what the character I was playing would do. It's the type of person he is. It's roleplay.
I realize that some people have no problem with cult rounds and enjoy them. However, I think I've provided fairly logical arguments for why the Cultist game mode is mechanically flawed. That doesn't mean it has no value and that the server would be better off without it, just that it has issues that could perhaps be approved upon. What if, for example, as the Cult gained power, Nar'Sie sent plagues upon the station? First a virus, then vines, then schools of space carp, then spiders, etc...? That would be a way we could involve the entire station and make the progress of the cult actually have an impact on the people living on the station. I'm just saying, maybe there is room for improvement.
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4 hours ago, Sothangel said:
Implying there is something wrong with extended?
I can only speak for myself and what experiences I personally find positive or negative.
The server says "The perfect Mix of RP & Action." If that's what the server's mission goal is, or at least what it's advertising, extended RP does not achieve that.
I know some people can spend 2 hours sitting in the bar discussing the space weather, or they have friends they are fine with shooting the shit with an entire round. I personally am not in that category, and I play on paradise because of the promise of both RP and action. I don't find one particularly interesting without the other.
Without the backdrop of conflict and danger, RP is fairly boring for me. I mean, there's no such thing as a drama where nothing happens. There's no interesting decisions, no heroes, no villains, it's just some dudes sitting on a space station.
On the flip side, combat with no RP is equally unappealing to me. If you want just combat, there are plenty of games that handle that better than SS13.
What has always made Paradise attractive to me is the mix of both, and I think failing to provide either is a negative.
But even outside of that, it's kind of like if you invited a bunch of friends to a party, but then took some of them aside to play a game and told the rest they aren't allowed to play or even watch, but they can go to another room and talk among themselves. Oh, and the party is over when we're done. I think from a design standpoint, a game mode that is inherently exclusionary is probably a bad thing.
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6 minutes ago, Chronarch said:
There should be a way to prevent people from just blundering into the ORs though because I have had to shout at people that I have a person that is OPEN ON THE TABLE. Waste of spaceacillin.
The doors only allow in people with surgery access, which is only MDs and the CMO, all of whom should know better. If they don't, that isn't something that can be fixed mechanically since there's no way for the game to detect competence.
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As an MD, I wouldn't be a fan of this. The ORs are already the most dangerous part of Medbay due to being fairly isolated and having the doctors within inherently distracted. Giving antags a button to cut them off from medical entirely would make them even more dangerous. Surgery access is already fairly restricted, and if a fellow doctor is being annoying you can bring it up to the CMO.
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It seems like your argument is mostly thematic. You don't seem to disagree that mechanically Genecists does nothing for science yet is incredibly vital to medical. But you feel we should completely ignore that because you think the fluff of genetic experimentation is better suited to science. I disagree with that, since things like virology or gateway exploration are also dangerous, yet are not covered by science. Robotics and RnD are also fairly safe and yet still under the science department. But, even if I agree with you that fluff wise science makes sense, I think mechanics are a much better thing base these decisions on.
The cloner is not at best a side project. It is part of their responsibilities and takes priority over experimentation. Other than the CMO, Geneticists are the only people who can eject a clone early, which significantly speed up how fast people can be cloned in an emergency. That's vitally important.
In short, we have a department that serves no mechanical purpose to science, while serving invaluable mechanical purposes to medical. This is a no brainer. It belongs as a part of medical. If you disagree, what argument can you offer that it should be a part of science beyond your own personal opinion that it fits better lore wise for it to be?
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I really think Genetics should simply be a part of medical. Genetics has no interaction with Science and nothing they do effects Science's ability to operate.
On the other hand, they are responsible for the cloner, which is medical's department, they make monkeys for chem to get blood with for synthflesh, and for the cloner to make biomass with. They made humanized monkeys for surgeons to replace lost limbs with. They make clean SE for MDs to treat genetic issues.
Science doesn't need them for anything. Nothing they do impacts science at all.
I don't even understand why they are under both science and medical to begin with, but I'd guess it's a legacy thing that made sense at some point and doesn't anymore due to changes since then.
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While medical does have a bunch of jobs, most of them aren't going to be done by a Borg. The only medical jobs a Borg can do really is Medical Doctor and Paramedic and those two jobs have a lot of overlap already. "Cloner" isn't a job so much as a shared responsibility of most of medical, and it all Borgs are capable of operating the cloner anyway, so it'll never be a thing you can assign to a specific borg type.
I just don't think there is enough variety in what medical borgs can do to justify splitting them up. I think it would be an unnecessary nerf by overspecialization.
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Rev simply doesn't work with Paradise's population. If it did come back, it would need some adjusting to limit how many revs the rev heads can convert so they can't just turn the entire station's graytide.
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2 minutes ago, Varlun said:
Your post is completely self-contradictory. The fact that Borgs DON'T take up job slots, means they literally don't "take anyone's jobs".
There is X amount of work for departments to do. When you add a borg who does some of that work, there is now less work for everyone else to do. We sign up for jobs with the expectation that we'll have things to do. When that isn't true because our departments are above capacity due to borgs that ignore job slots, the game-play experience for everyone is directly and negatively impacted.
That's why we have a cap on 5 doctor slots, so we can't have 10 doctors running around, because there isn't enough work for 10 doctors to do. But we can have 5 doctors and 5 borgs, which means less for everyone to do. If Borgs took up job slots, we'd have 5 people doing the job of doctor. It doesn't matter if it's 5 humans and 0 borgs or 0 humans and 5 borgs or some mix in between. It's still a limit on how many people are actively working in that department, which is what matters.
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I don't hate borgs. I hate that that there is a role that can decide to join any department at any time with complete disregard for job slots. That's why people hate borgs but have no problem with IPCs. That's also where the "Dey Turk Ur Jerbs!" mentality comes from, and it's not exactly wrong. There are reasons there is a set number of slots on jobs and borgs completely screw that up. The more powerful borgs are going to be, the more people will want to be borgs. Right now being a Borg has some serious limitations and that's what prevents a significant part of our huge graytide from getting borged. But let's say you buff borgs and now you have a dozen graytide signing up for borgings every round? What then?
The only reason borgs aren't completely oppressive right now is because most people don't want to play them due to the annoying and arbitrary restrictions on them. The people who do play them see these restrictions and want them removed. Because they're annoying and arbitrary. That's understandable but the problem is, these restrictions are the only thing stopping the rise of the machines.
If you really want borgs to be equals, lets make them need a job slot and make them take up that job slot. Until that happens I don't think borgs should be able to do any more than they already can.
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I think it's more player behavior that has to be dealt with than a mechanical issue. Yea, a borer can kill someone and then just leave the host... but then you need to find another host, which isn't so easy. You're incredibly vulnerable when not in a host and you don't generate chemicals. The host can wrestle control back in 30 seconds, so unless the borer runs for the nearest airlock usually a borer can't kill someone that fast. And a borer who starts killing their host immediately is definitely not playing their objectives and should be dealt by administratively.
If a borer is playing to achieve their objectives of staying alive and propagating, its' far easier to simply find a willing host. It isn't that hard to do, since a borer can be a huge help if they are cooperative and all you need to do is spew some babies for them now and then.
As far as giving info on antags, if the borer gained the info while a ghost that is OOC knowledge and not allowed. If borers shared info via a hivemind, well, that's IC. Borers are a risk. You can always ask your borer not to share that information. It's a reasonable request since as a borer your host getting killed or arrested is certainty not good for you. Keep in mind too, info given to you by a borer isn't guaranteed to be accurate.
In some cases, borers can and should oppose antags. Borers don't want to see their hosts, a.k.a. the crew killed. To that end Borers working towards their objectives should be helping the crew defeat blobs and Xenos and Terror spiders.
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I don't really see why stealth cults are the desirable way to play. Recently there was a cult round where I spent an hour and a half playing MD with only 2 patients before suddenly the cult won. I had 3 minutes of somewhat interesting gameplay as we ran to the shuttle and that was it, in an hour of an a half of gameplay. The cult was so good the station never went on alert and no one had any idea there was a cult. They must have played it perfectly. Good for them. But for me, it was an RP extended round with 3 minutes of something kind of interesting at the end. I just don't get why people look at that and say "Oh yea, this is what we want."
Now, this was the most extreme case. Usually instead what happens is someone figures out there is a cult, Red Alert is declared, everyone is confined to their departments, and then 1.5-2 hours of Extended RP later either the shuttle comes or Nar'Sie does. That isn't much better. In fact, I'm hard pressed at the moment to think up a cultist round I can recall where I actually had fun. I find them much more interesting to observe than play on, because at least observing I get a show. As a player you have no idea what is going on, how much the cult or security is winning doesn't effect you at all, and the only feedback or interaction you have is at the end of the game when you see which side won.
I understand that unless someone is security they won't directly fight most antags. But at least most antags create content for everyone to do, even when they aren't directly confronting them. Traitors might bomb an area giving engineering stuff to do, or attack or kill people, giving medical stuff to do. They create chaos to a degree and that chaos creates challenges and content for everyone.
Cultists do not do this. They have no reason to destroy station infrastructure, and have a strong disincentive to fight security or even actually harm anyone. While traitors and changelings also use stealth, they aren't trying to convince the entire station they don't exist like a Cult is. That means on the Cultist side the most effective way to win is never do anything to make the round interesting, and the most effective way for security to win is bolt everything down and lock people in their department the moment a cult is even suspected.
Why is the most effective way for both sides to play so god damn boring?
I would much rather have a cult that spams constructs. At least they do things and create content for people. I understand why people complain, though, and all it comes back to failures in the cult mode design. See, the only way to actually be involved in a Cult round is to either be the Cult or security, and security isn't hiring. So they get all excited when they get captured (maybe even they kind of wanted to be, but we won't talk about that) but then end up dead instead and they're pissed.
Consider: If the CMO got pissed a traitor murdered them when their objective was just to stealth a hypospray they'd be told to stop being salty and that the traitor is under no obligation to spare their life, even if killing them isn't specifically required by their objective. Yet, somehow, we feel cultists should be obligated to treat their captives a certain way? When their entire goal is to summon an Eldritch Abomination to murder everyone? Why is that? What's the difference?
The difference is, on traitor rounds you aren't counting on the traitor doing something to you in order for you to be involved in the round.
Getting captured is asking the cultist "May I take part in this round?" and the cult killing the captive is the cult saying "No, you may not." That's why people get mad. And let that one sink in for a bit and realize how messed up of a situation that is.
Now obviously not everyone will agree with me and I'm sure a lot of people enjoy cult rounds as is. So even if we want to say they are more or less working as intended, this type of thing brings up another issue. I think, general, it's a bad idea to have unwritten rules on playstyles that the Admins have to enforce. That's going to be frustrating for both parties, as it's just creating work for Admins while annoying players who feel like they've done nothing wrong. If spamming constructs isn't allowed then it should either be written as a rule that it isn't, or coded as such that it can't be done. I realize 'just change the code' isn't something you can snap your fingers and do, so perhaps there should be some written guidelines in the meantime?
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2 hours ago, ProperPants said:
I know, and that's good, but Ctrl-Click would forego the need to open your equipment tab and free up that ear for anything else (granted, I don't know if anyone ever uses both ear slots).
Yea, sorry, I didn't meant to come off like I was being dismissive of your idea, it would definitely be a nice QoL change. Just informing anyone who might not know.
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Protip: You put the pen behind your ear so you can retrieve it quickly when you need to use it. Just 'equip' the pen to you ear slot.
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I haven't tested this, but as Advanced Burn/Truama kits are actually stacks of single items rather than kits with charges, you might be able to click on a new trauma kit with one in hand to transfer the stacks to the one you are holding. I know when I played maintenance drones I could pick up things that way provided I had a stack in hand to add them to, like with metal or cable coil.
But I really don't think it's a huge deal, even as a human doctor 90% of the time I'm in the Medbay I'm shoving someone into Cryo or a sleeper anyway. I only rarely have to restock the 2 burn/brute advance kits I spawn with.
Patches and Synflesh are for 'in the field' healing, quick stabilization, or getting burn/brute below 150 for SR, mostly.
Alert procedure change
in Suggestions
Posted · Edited by EvadableMoxie
I'd like this, assuming the Admins will be policing it and preventing the "Go red 15 minutes into the shift and never change." issue. Red Alert (or more specifically the departmental lockdown) is where fun goes to die. At the same time, security and command benefit so much from it that they'll go red as soon as they possibly can, as long as they possibly can. I see potential problems in that since this new red alert provides even more power to security and thus even more incentive to be on it as much as possible.
I also support the idea of changing Blue alert to Yellow Alert. It's more intuitive. Green means things are good, Yellow means there is a threat, Red means things are bad.