Aligote
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Posts posted by Aligote
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I appreciate the response and the only thing I wish to say is
13 hours ago, Sirryan2002 said:You might disagree with this, so I'll remind you that an AC isn't about your behavior necessarily, it's about the admin's behavior. Your notes being rectified post-warning doesn't change the context in which they were originally applied, which means that Miraviel's behaviour in this situation can't really be examined with a new lense without being unfair to them.
I thought I did address Miraviel's behavior in terms of the old lens. The fact that the notes/complaints were rectified post-warning, only goes to show the consequence of taking administrative action with contentious evidence still in question. Explaining my behavior was just integral to addressing Miraviel's administrative behavior in response.
Anyways....thanks.
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I appreciate the thoroughness of this response and for taking the time to explain your reasoning. However, I do believe administrative misconduct was present and think there should be further discussion.
I do now understand how the recontextualized songs are distasteful due to their historical context and I'm sorry. However, I believe there is a misunderstanding about how I should've thought deeper about what I was posting. I made a similar post called Assistant Raps in August 2022 with no warning to inform me about potential issues. Even though those songs aren't based on historical Irish resistance songs, they had lyrics decrying security. Now, I understand Rule 4 is about maintaining a respectful environment, which revolves around harassment and bigotry. And although I now understand how the songs could've been distasteful, I do not know if using a song decrying what the Black and Tans did would've been visibly comparable to nazi paraphernalia supporting nazis and bigotry. In terms of harassment, I have to say again that it was two songs that haven't seen used in-server and didn't target anyone in particular OOCly. Just to say, I reasonably wouldn't have thought the post to be an issue in terms of Rule 4.
On 8/6/2023 at 9:51 AM, Sirryan2002 said:It's in pretty poor taste, and you could definitely make a cover about this stuff with a less politically heated song.
Now I understand Rule 4 was ultimately not the rule used but instead Rule 0, which you stated you agree with as well. However, with the reasoning of rule 0 and the wording, I don't think I would've been allowed to post a song that decried security, like the ones posted in August, at all. Something you suggest I could've done instead. I believe the punishment for breaking Rule 0 may have been in reaction to recent behavior and that is very important to note.
QuoteRule 0 break.
You have multiple notes on brainless security-hating.
...
Just to make it more obvious:
Security players are players too and they are here to have a good time like everyone else.
Now what I still consider to be an issue of misconduct is this. As it's been stated, this situation does not exist in a vacuum. Since rule 0 is about being a dick that's negatively affecting the community, my recent behavior is very important in this situation.
On 8/6/2023 at 9:51 AM, Sirryan2002 said:you have a history of being warned for being too hostile towards sec players without any good reason. So, it makes one wonder why you decided to post the songs immediately after opening two admin complaints.
The reason I decided to post the songs immediately after the MattTheFicus complaint(N/A complaint was already up for several days), was that I had music notes which I included in the post. I forgot to include these in the complaint but I did have these in the song post. I intended to share music and encourage players to use instruments, not particularly thinking about how it'd be viewed as distasteful. I was already on the forums and like my first claim, I wanted to post something I initially thought was light. There is nothing to gain from spiting admins by writing songs they might take offense to.
SpoilerCome Out Ye Black and Tans
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Song Author: Dominic Behan - Source: By FitnessMoose
BPM: 240 D4-F-D3-D5-F4-D4,E4-E5,F-F5/0.62,F4-F5/1.67,E4-E5,D-D5,A4-C4-A3-A5-C5-A4,G4-G5,F4-F5,E4-E5,D4-F3-D3-D5-F4-D4/0.45,C4-C5/0.45,D-D5/0.45,C-A3-D3-F3-C6-A4-D4-F4/0.45,D5-D6,D5-D6,D5-D6,E-E6/1.67,D5-D6/0.36,C5-C6,A-A5,G4-G3-E3-C3-G5-G4-E4-C4,G-G5,G4-G5,A4-A5/1.67,G4-G5/0.36,C5-C6,C5-C6 D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4,D5-D6,D5-D6,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/0.62,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/1.67,E5-E6/0.45,D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4/0.31,C5-C6,A-A5/0.45,A4-A5,B4-B5,C5-G3-E3-C3-C6-G4-E4-C4,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-D6/1.67,C5-C6/0.36,B4-B5,A4-A5,G-C3-E3-G3-G5-C4-E4-G4,E-E5,D4-D5/1.67,E4-E5,C-C5/0.36,D4-D5,E4-E5 F-F3-D3-F5-F4-D4/0.62,F-F5/1.67,E4-E5,D-D5,A4-C4-A3-A5-C5-A4,G-G5,F4-F5,E4-E5,D4-F3-D3-D5-F4-D4/0.45,C4-C5/0.45,D-D5/0.45,C-A3-D3-F3-C6-A4-D4-F4/0.45,D5-D6,D5-D6,D5-D6,E-E6/1.67,D5-D6/0.36,C5-C6,A-A5,G4-G3-E3-C3-G5-G4-E4-C4,G-G5,G4-G5,A4-A5/1.67,G4-G5/0.36,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4 D5-D6,D5-D6,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/0.62,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/1.67,E5-E6/0.45,D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4/0.31,C5-C6,A-A5/0.45,A4-A5,B4-B5,C5-G3-E3-C3-C6-G4-E4-C4,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-D6/1.67,C5-C6/0.36,B4-B5,A4-A5,G-C3-E3-G3-G5-C4-E4-G4,E-E5,D4-D5/1.67,E4-E5,C-C5/0.36,D4-D5,E4-E5,F-F3-D3-F5-F4-D4/0.62,F-F5/1.67 E4-E5,D-D5,A4-C4-A3-A5-C5-A4,G-G5,F4-F5,E4-E5,D4-F3-D3-D5-F4-D4/0.45,C4-C5/0.45,D-D5/0.45,C-A3-D3-F3-C6-A4-D4-F4/0.45,D5-D6,D5-D6,D5-D6,E-E6/1.67,D5-D6/0.36,C5-C6,A-A5,G4-G3-E3-C3-G5-G4-E4-C4,G-G5,G4-G5,A4-A5/1.67,G4-G5/0.36,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4,D5-D6,D5-D6,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/0.62 C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/1.67,E5-E6/0.45,D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4/0.31,C5-C6,A-A5/0.45,A4-A5,B4-B5,C5-G3-E3-C3-C6-G4-E4-C4,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-D6/1.67,C5-C6/0.36,B4-B5,A4-A5,G-C3-E3-G3-G5-C4-E4-G4,E-E5,D4-D5/1.67,E4-E5,C-C5/0.36,D4-D5,E4-E5,F-F3-D3-F5-F4-D4/0.62,F-F5/1.67,E4-E5,D-D5,A4-C4-A3-A5-C5-A4,G-G5 F4-F5,E4-E5,D4-F3-D3-D5-F4-D4/0.45,C4-C5/0.45,D-D5/0.45,C-A3-D3-F3-C6-A4-D4-F4/0.45,D5-D6,D5-D6,D5-D6,E-E6/1.67,D5-D6/0.36,C5-C6,A-A5,G4-G3-E3-C3-G5-G4-E4-C4,G-G5,G4-G5,A4-A5/1.67,G4-G5/0.36,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4,D5-D6,D5-D6,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/0.62,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/1.67,E5-E6/0.45 D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4/0.31,C5-C6,A-A5/0.45,A4-A5,B4-B5,C5-G3-E3-C3-C6-G4-E4-C4,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-D6/1.67,C5-C6/0.36,B4-B5,A4-A5,G-C3-E3-G3-G5-C4-E4-G4,E-E5,D4-D5/1.67,E4-E5,C-C5/0.36,D4-D5,E4-E5,F-F3-D3-F5-F4-D4/0.62,F-F5/1.67,E4-E5,D-D5,A4-C4-A3-A5-C5-A4,G-G5,F4-F5,E4-E5,D4-F3-D3-D5-F4-D4/0.45 C4-C5/0.45,D-D5/0.45,C-A3-D3-F3-C6-A4-D4-F4/0.45,D5-D6,D5-D6,D5-D6,E-E6/1.67,D5-D6/0.36,C5-C6,A-A5,G4-G3-E3-C3-G5-G4-E4-C4,G-G5,G4-G5,A4-A5/1.67,G4-G5/0.36,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4,D5-D6,D5-D6,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/0.62,C5-C6/1.67,D5-D6/1.67,E5-E6/0.45,D5-A3-F3-D3-D6-A4-F4-D4/0.31,C5-C6 A-A5/0.45,A4-A5,B4-B5,C5-G3-E3-C3-C6-G4-E4-C4,C5-C6,C5-C6,D5-D6/1.67,C5-C6/0.36,B4-B5,A4-A5,G-C3-E3-G3-G5-C4-E4-G4,E-E5,D4-D5/1.67,E4-E5,C-C5/0.36,D4-D5,E4-E5,F-F3-D3-F5-F4-D4/0.62,F-F5/1.67,E4-E5,D-D5,A4-C4-A3-A5-C5-A4,G-G5,F4-F5,E4-E5,D4-F3-D3-D5-F4-D4/0.45,C4-C5/0.45,D-D5/0.25
Kinky Boots
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Song Author: The Irish Brigade - Source: Uploaded by William Helsted
BPM: 300 F#5-D-D5/2,F#-A5/4,D3,F#,F#/0.67,F#/0.67,F#/1.33,E5/1.33,D5/4,D4/4,D5/0.67,D/0.8,E/0.67,F#/2,F#/1.33,D/2,D/0.8,E/0.57,D/0.29,D3/0.29,E3-B5-G5-E5/4,E3-B/4,G-E5-B-E3/1.33,G/0.67,G/0.67,G/0.67,G/0.67,F#/0.67,E5,F#/2,G/0.57,E/0.8,F#/0.57,E/0.14,F#/0.67,D-A-D5/4,F#-D3,A/0.67,B/0.44,B/1.33,A/0.67,F# D/0.31,A/0.44,A/1.33,B/0.67,B/0.67,A/0.17,D5-B/4,G3/2,B/2,G5/4,B/4,B/2,D/1.33,B/1.33,B/0.44,G-B-E/2,G/4,B-E3/1.33,A/0.67,G/0.67,A/0.67,E5-B-C#5-A/4,A3/1.33,C#/4,A5/0.8,B/0.33,A/0.33,A/0.33,D6-A-F#-D5/4,D3/2,D4/1.33,D6/1.33,D/2,C#6/0.67,B/0.67,A/0.44,B/1.33,F#/4,F#,F#/1.33,G/1.33,A/0.67,A/0.67 F#/0.4,E/2,F#/0.17,D/0.67,D/1.33,D/1.33,C#/0.67,B/0.67,A/0.44,B/1.33,F#/4,F#/0.8,F#/1.33,G/1.33,A/0.44,A/0.36,G/1.33,D3-D4-A-D5-Cn5/4,F#-D3/0.27,A/0.67,D5-B/4,G3/0.5,B/1.33,B/0.67,C#/0.67,B/0.44,A/1.33,G5/0.67,A/0.67,B/0.67,B/0.67,B/1.33,C#/0.5,B/0.17,D3-A-F#-D5-D6/4,D3-D5-F#/4,C#/0.67,C#/1.33 B/1.33,F#/1.33,A/0.67,A/1.33,F#/0.4,D/4,D4,E/0.67,F#-A3-E-C#5-A5/4,A3-F#/2,A/0.8,E-D5/4,D/2,F#-A5/0.67,E/0.67,A-F#-D3-D5/4,D3-D5/0.19,D-D6-A-F#-D3/4,D5-F#/4,C#6/0.67,C#/1.33,B/1.33,F#/1.33,A/0.67,A/1.33,F#/0.4,D/0.8,E/0.67,F#-A3-E/4,C#5-A4-A5/4,F#/4,A3/0.67,E/4,D/2,A5-F#/0.67,E/0.67,F#-D3-D5-A/4 F#-D3-D5/0.14,D3/4,Cn6/0.2
The main issue of misconduct is that implied in your response, Miraviel may have responded the way they did because of my ongoing history and the two admin complaints from before. In their warning, they specifically stated
QuoteLet this be clear. If you get one more note as a problematic player, be it in the game or on Discord/forums, this will be upgraded into a permanent ban.
Although you may agree with this judgment, I hope you can understand that ultimately, issues post-ban such as the cargo coup note were still under review, such as me being the instigator of the cargo coup. While the MattTheFicus complaint was still ongoing at the time of posting. I don't expect 100% customer service, but I am concerned about statements concerning a permanent ban, over something I established before, I reasonably wouldn't have thought was an issue. There was reasonable doubt about notes and Miraviel may have intended to use those to justify a permanent ban from the forums further on, using rule 0 as the reason.
I'll be honest, I'm really trying to not be a dick and extend my "history" further. It's a shame that after you agreed that I wasn't the instigator of the cargo coup, it's still used against me to solidify a continuing history that supports this warning, although I understand why. I didn't wish to become a high-maintenance player post-ban, walking on eggshells with the number of notes I have. And I apologize for all the time taken with these complaints. I've been trying to contribute what I can to the wiki, including the songs, and I only intended to post with good intentions. I know some of my personal intentions aren't very important in this matter. But I hope you can reconsider your decision with the evidence I've presented from the warning, your response, missing content from the original post, and the post from August. I believe there may have been misconduct in Miraviel's warning of permanent banning based on unsubstantiated behavior. Potentially doing so in retaliation over the unsubstantiated motive of trying to spite admins with songs after opening two complaints.
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Admin(s) Key: @Abydos, @Necaladun, & @AffectedArc07
Your ckey (Byond username): Aligote
Your Discord name (if applicable): AligoteDate(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 10/14/2022-11/3/2022
ROUND ID: Not Known
Nature of complaint: clarification required
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint:- Banned by Abydos: Ban Appeal for Aligote #1
- Banned by Abydos: Ban Appeal for Aligote #2
- Banned by Abydos: Ban Appeal for Aligote #3
(References to ban evasion are at the end of abydos' responses to #2 & #3)
Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): During my ban appeals for behavior against security, Abydos accused me of ban evasion along with other charges. It would be the main focus of my complaint and would be addressed by Necaludun. They stated that they do suspect me of being another player who avoided a ban and was now playing on this account. They said that AffectedArc07 would look into it and if found untrue, they might potentially unban me. Either way, I have been unbanned during that time and would like clarification on this charge. I profess I am not another account other than this one.
My apologies for the multiple complaints I have at the time of posting this. However, I believe this is the best time to bring attention to this issue. Again, I'd like this issue to be looked into and clarified as well.-
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Admin(s) Key: @Miraviel
Your ckey (Byond username):Aligote
Your Discord name (if applicable): AligoteDate(s) of incident (GMT preferred):8/2/23
ROUND ID:N/A
Nature of complaint:
Select all that apply: misapplication of rules, misconduct, abuse of powers
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint: (Since vouch was mentioned in the warning)Banned by Abydos: Ban Appeal for Aligote
Brief description: Miraviel suspended my forum account for around one day, gave 10 warning points, 7-day content moderation, and I believe a 24 hour ban on the server (Although I entered the server just fine), for two songs I retrofitted for station context and uploaded to the forums. The rule they said I broke was sec harassment or rule 0 for being a dick. However, I didn't use the songs in-game or intended to use them in a manner to excessively harass security, I didn't play a single round after posting the songs. They also threatened to give out another permanent ban/forum suspension if I had one more note for troublesome behavior, which I don't know if they are referring to the recent notes I currently have and are appealing at the moment, such as the QM coup or valid hunting charge.I do not believe posting the songs I did deserves this sort of response. I also think the threat of a permanent ban/suspension, potentially for notes that are still under question, is a step too far if truly the motive. I'd like this situation to be reviewed for misapplication of rules, misconduct, and potential abuse of power.
Full description of events: I recently transposed several songs onto the wiki. These included Irish resistance songs "Kinky Boots" and "Come Out Ye Black and Tans". Shortly after posting my complaint for MattTheFicus, I decided to post something light, so I decided to write lyrics to these songs with a station context. I ended up labeling the post "Assistant Songs", reminiscent to another post I made with no issue.SpoilerCOME OUT YE BLACK AND REDS!
♫As I work on NT weeks♫
♫Where the Royal drums do beat♫
♫And those loving shitsec feet♫
♫They walked all ooooooover us♫♫And every single shift♫
♫When me freinds would gather swift♫
♫We'd invite the members out with this choooooorus♫♫COME OUT YE BLACK AND REDS!!♫
♫Come out and fight me like a man!!!♫
♫Show your wife how you won medals from commaaaanders♫♫Tell her how those darn greys♫
♫Made you run like hell away♫
♫From the grey and lovely lanes of Carrgoooniaaaaa♫♫Come let us hear you tell♫
♫How you slandered the great clown♫
♫When you fought them well and truly persecuuuuuted♫♫Where are the smears and jeers?♫
♫That you loudly let us hear?♫
♫When our leaders of sixteen were execuuuuuteed♫♫COME OUT YA BLACK AND REDS!!!♫
♫Come out and fight me like a man!!!!♫
♫Show your wife how you won medals from commaaaanders♫♫Tell her how those darn greys♫
♫Made you run like hell away♫
♫From the grey and lovely lanes of Cargoooooniaaaa♫♫Come tell us how you slew♫
♫Them old Ashies two by two♫
♫Like the Tiders they had spears and bow and aaaaarrows♫♫How bravely you faced one♫
♫With your sixteen pounder slug♫
♫And you frightened them damn natives to their maaaaaarroow♫♫COME OUT YE BLACK AND RED!!!!♫
♫Come out and fight me like a man!!!!!♫
♫Show your wife how you won medals from commaaaanders♫♫Tell her how those darn greys♫
♫Made you run like hell away♫
♫From the grey and lovely lanes of Cargooooniaaaaa♫♫Now the time is coming fast♫
♫And I think them days are here♫
♫When each officer's heel runs befoooooore us♫♫And if there be a need♫
♫Then our freinds will sing Godspeed♫
♫With a verse or two of singing this one choooooooruus♫♫COME OUT YE BLACK AND REDS!!!♫
♫Come out and fight me like a man!!!!!♫
♫Show your wife how you won medals from commaaaanders♫♫Tell her how those darn greys♫
♫Made you run like hell away♫
♫From the grey and lovely lanes of Cargooooniaaaaa♫Kinky Boots
♪I drove my subway through your kneecaps last fight♪
♪I kicked your front face up around at midfight♪
♪Something's telling me, boy, that you're avoiding me♪
♪And when I find you, you will run for your teaaaaaa!!!!!♪♪Oh, I've got a brand new shiny helmet and a pair of kinky boots!!!!!♪
♪I've got a lovely new flak jacket and lovely khaki suit!!!!♪
♪And when we go on maint patrol, we hold each other's hands!♪
♪For we are station security and we're here to kill your friends!♪♪My good friend Bertie, he is the officer♪
♪Searching for weapons he will go near and far♪
♪Up around by bar, you'd never find him there♪
♪Oh, the only gun he'll get there is a shotgun in his ear!!!♪♪Oh, I've got a brand new shiny helmet and a pair of kinky boots!!!!♪
♪I've got a lovely new flak jacket and lovely khaki suit!!!!!!♪
♪And when we go on maint patrol, we hold each other's hands♪
♪For we are station security and we're here to kill your friends!♪♪My good friend Trevor, he's is the deputy♪
♪But now they've handed him his redundancy♪
♪Folks along the bridges won't be seein him anyyyy more♪
♪That provo mimer will be missing him for sure!!!!!!!♪♪Oh, I've got a brand new shiny helmet and a pair of kinky boots!!!!♪
♪I've got a lovely new flak jacket and lovely khaki suit!!!!♪
♪And when we go on maint patrol, we hold each other's hands!♪
♪We are station security and were here to kill your friends!♪♪My good friend Nigel, he's the warden yes♪
♪He said a change is just as good as arrest♪
♪But now they've gone and posted him way down to Cargooo's Den!♪
♪He wished to blazes, he was back in jail again!!!!!!♪♪Oh, I've got a brand new shiny helmet and a pair of kinky boots♪
♪I've got a lovely new flak jacket and lovely khaki suit♪
♪And when we go on maint patrol, we hold each other's hands!!!♪
♪We are station security and were here to kill your friends!♪♪My good friend Sammy, he's the HOS!!!!♪
♪An outstanding member, as all the world can see!!♪♪I said, "Go up to Lavaland! If you want to have some fun!"♪
♪He said, "I'll take a run there, if I have nothing ooooon!!!!"♪♪Oh, I've got a brand new shiny helmet and a pair of kinky boots♪
♪I've got a lovely new flak jacket and lovely khaki suit♪
♪And when we go on maint patrol, we hold each other's hands♪
♪We are station security and we are here to kill your friends!♪♪We are station security and we are here to kill your friends!♪
♪We are station security and we are here to kill your friends!♪
Shortly afterwards, Miraviel made the warning and suspended my account for around a day. This is how their message looked like on my end:
Spoiler
I don't believe this sort of warning is justified for anti-sec/pro-assistant songs that I hadn't done anything rulebreaking with yet, and that I wished to share with fellow forum readers. Again, I'd like this situation to be reviewed for misapplication of rules, misconduct, and potential abuse of power.
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I see, but I just want to add again that I did spend most of my time trying to help the captain or QM up or drag them to safety. I only hit the contractor when he was attacking the QM that I knew and was friends with. I'm sure something in the logs can confirm that the QM was being attacked when I hit them and that I mostly helped people up while they were on the ground and dragging the QM to medbay, if this is anything to consider. Also, if using weapons is too much and defending coworkers is only regulated to shoving or dragging, perhaps that could be clarified in the advanced rules to avoid confusion.
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I think there are multiple sentiments that must be addressed in this thread.
First, obviously, people ignoring and doing your job for you should be looked down upon. However, this heavily depends on HOW you interact with them. If your first reaction to someone stepping into your "workplace" is to robotically shove them outside as their text bubble is loading. There may be a reason you're getting burned out. A person approaching you could potentially be one of the most fruitful RP opportunities you could get, you can discuss what they need and how they could produce it. That's why this "close doors on those tiders lmao" sentiment put me off, assistants are ASSISTANTS. Most departments have GUEST PASS MACHINES. Ya know, this visible burnout from "production" roles may be because you're not interacting and roleplaying, a major part of this game.
Second, people mindlessly taking over your job is a stain on the other player's behavior, not a justification to try and wall yourself in. Again, that's how you burn yourself out, doing the same thing over and over again.
Third, don't interact with security by crying wolf. They don't have a sense of humor.
Fourth, you can do anything as an assistant. You can play at the arcade by yourself and choose who you talk to. It's a great role to familiarize yourself with other jobs that could fit you as well, such as librarian or whatnot. I mean, what's the point and end goal of SS13 jobs? It's to cooperate with one another and try to build something in the face of adversity. Or, in other words, to make a good story and simulation. Why not just "work" as an assistant?
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Admin(s) Key: MattTheFicus
Your ckey (Byond username): Aligote
Your Discord name (if applicable): AligoteDate(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 7/31/23
ROUND ID: #36751
Nature of complaint: Clarification required, misapplication of rules
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint:N/A
Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements):I and a QM spotted a contractor emagging into the bridge with a vulnerable captain with no sec around. We ran into the Bridge and tried to save the captain and in doing so, I hit the contractor once with a butcher's cleaver while the contractor attacked the QM and aided the QM while the contractor was beating him up. Later in the round, MattTheFicus admin messaged on why I chased an antag with a butcher cleaver as assistant. I explained that I was trying to save a coworker, the captain, from a visibly dangerous contractor who in the past, had abducted me a little beforehand. He then told me to explain how that wasn't the literal definition of validhunting. I elaborated that I only hit the contractor once, spent most of the time trying to save the QM afterward, and I apologized. Finally, he warned me to never do "it" again and to sign up for security if I want to fight antagonists.
I thought attempting to save a coworker from an antagonist isn't validhunting. I don't wish to rules lawyer because doing that would be to ignore the essence of the rules in favor of a minuscule technicality. But I thought the essence of validhunting is that it actively intrudes and obstructs antagonist's and security's abilities to function, where here, the antagonist was going loud on the captain in Bridge and security wasn't there. I acted with restraint and still got warned to not do "it" again. I would like some clarification on these warnings and perhaps about their potential misapplication.
Full description of events:
I was doing a shift as an assistant and had made connections to the cargo mafia. Later into the round, I was attacked and abducted by a contractor in the library. Shortly after being returned, another batoning assailant attacked coworkers in the secless library and I tried and failed to stop them with a cleaver. Later, comms said a contractor was in cargo with urgency. I went over to cargo angrily waving my cleaver, roleplaying my hatred of the contractor, and roleplaying my concern for the Don's(QM's) safety. I don't know if MattTheFicus took these into account or just the interaction at the bridge. Either way, I spent most of the time at the bar trying to set up a conveyor table of string instruments and music books I had cataloged. The fight at the bridge happened spontaneously as I was conversing with the Don(QM).
Now, in my notes there is an old note by MattTheFicus for another validhunting affair. It was due to me attacking an antag already being handled by security. I do not know if this had any affect on the admin's decision but it is something to consider. I don't consider these two circumstances to be the same and would like clarification and evaluation of this new warning's application of the rules.
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Admin(s) Key: N/A
Your ckey (Byond username): Aligote
Your Discord name (if applicable): AligoteDate(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 7/22/23
ROUND ID: N/A
Nature of complaint: clarification required
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint: N/A
Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements): I was provided my notes and the last one was on July 22nd, for attempting to organize a cargonian movement as nonantag with violence as the threat. I think there must have been a misconception on what happened because even though I was a cargo tech, I wasn't involved in the cargonian secession that was apparently going on. I want some clarification on this note and its validity to be reviewed.
Full description of events: From my recollection of events that round; I played as a cargo technician and for the most part, did my job. The closest I came to being involved in the Cargonian secession attempt I didn't know was going on, was when I decided to buy donksoft toys and print riot foam to play with the crew. However, I didn't organize anything with cargo to lead a secession, I was too busy playing nerf with the crew. Later on, I was arrested by sec for my donk-soft handgun and I responded angrily (to a reasonable extent). I was released shortly before evac was called and that was it.Now, a head of staff did look into this and uphold the note, my apologies for pushing this still. I only wish for this note to be looked into a little more, clarified, and maybe cleared up.
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Admin(s) Key: @Abydos
Your ckey (Byond username): Aligote
Your Discord name (if applicable): Aligote
Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 10/14/2022-10/20/2022
ROUND ID: Not Known
Nature of complaint: Clarification Required
Links to all relevant ban appeals for any bans related to this complaint:
Banned by Abydos: Ban Appeal for Aligote #1
Banned by Abydos: Ban Appeal for Aligote #2
Banned by Abydos: Ban Appeal for Aligote #3
(References to ban evasion are at the end of abydos' responses to #2 & #3)
Brief description (tl;dr here. Just the critical elements):
I was mistakenly accused by abydos, of ban evasion I did not commit in the second and third ban appeal threads I posted.
Full description of events:- I was banned on October 14th, 2022 and made an appeal on October 16th that was rejected.
- I made another appeal on October 20th, this time getting a response from Abydos that referenced ban evasion I wasn't involved in.
- I then made another appeal on October 24th that included a request for clarification on ban evading, which Abydos commented as me being disingenuous.
It's been a while, but it has always been itching at the back of my head, please clarify and clear up what the alleged ban evasion was referring to as I've regrettably done it in the past and know it never works and only makes the server distrust you more. (Also, I just read about how I'm supposed to apply for appeals months apart...well that's on me sorry for that.)
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Station Purpose
The station's main purpose is to:
-Mine resources (currently Lavaland) and test it's quality with RND products/experiments (Toxins and plasma).
-Export plasma, tech disks, andillegaladvanced seeds from cargo to serve in "important" NT cataloguing or distribution.
-Strengthen legal NT presence in the epsilon eridani sector and currently Lavaland. -
1 hour ago, WingedYordle said:
Honestly thought more people would voice in
Dont we all :/
If it's performance issues I guess you need to get reports from other people as well, perhaps your computer is especially stunted. Also when I still played in my garbage small laptop, blob rounds never really seemed to be much of an issue performance wise.
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"Russian Station"
The "Russian" station that survived the gateway purge (as of posting) holds some contradictory implications that would make alot more sense with the proposed theory. Based on first glance, Russians have invaded some sort of NT facility (contrary to SOME people who just describe it as a Russian base) and don't think any further about it. However, there is no reason for the "Russians" to be non-sentient mobs and for the USSP to even be attacking NT in the first place (their not hostile as of the recent USSP lore update).
Now, what is most likely the case for me is that their syndicate bioengineered soldiers dressed in soviet clothing to pin the USSP as scapegoats and ruin NT-USSP relations. It would explain why those "Russians" are the way they are and the entire gateway destination as a whole.
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Was this ever resolved?
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9 hours ago, Khango said:
I have written a timeline of events bridging the events of the AvP Universe with those of SS13. Although still a work in progress, I think this will better connect the existence of Xenomorphs in game as well as why Nanotrasen seems to be the only Megacorporation left; please feel free to give me feedback!
It's good but I do have a few gripes.
Relating to paradise specific lore, I'm pretty sure skrell were the first to make contact with Sol to make the human-skrell alliance or something. "Tizaran" also are strange since the unathi are the "lizard people" and the closest to the name are tajarans, one of the two "feline" species.Also 2100 forwards, the main Earth planetary body was the United Earth Confederacy and then the Sol federation. I'm sure there's a way to make them the "US" and their marines the "USCM".
Personally, considering the Alien lore I think it would make more sense if Weyland-Yutani secretly merged with NT, keeping all that corporate corruption and such.
Anyways, really interesting interpretation to the origins of the alien. It was bound to happen considering the mysterious and unknown history of those things :)
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1 minute ago, PeakPerformance said:
About unions making sense ICLY - If you had grievances with your evil company overlord, would you protest them somewhere safe from their reach with a large audience, or on board of their security-controlled, space-faring, nuclear-bomb-rigged, remote metal box ?
Would you try to protest them outside of the workplace with no workers on a highly militarized pro-NT planet that implements martial law? COUGH COUGH Sol...
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1 hour ago, BottomQuark said:
Inheritly no. But still if you have 3 engineers and 1 of them joins the protesting it makes engineering 33% less effective which may have big consequences if half of the station happens to explode and said engineer is too busy to notice or they just ignore radio. Same goes with medbay if people get hurt during protesting if they become understaffed.
The problem I see is that taking focus of securit off the antags (for which the game is balanced around), makes it easier to wreck havoc for said antags, which sometimes means collateral damage in station hull/machinery or/and dead bodies.
Yes, unions shouldn't be organized when the station is under heavy pressure by antags and explosions. You shouldn't organize a strike when a cult or blob is present and this CAN be solved with some sort of admin cooperation. They can vet when a situation is good or bad enough for a union and how impactful(violent) it can be.
1 hour ago, BottomQuark said:I imagine you can RP that your character is in union and not make it a big fuss. For example bartender that requires people to pay for their drinks bcs nanotrasen doesn't pay them well enough. Or people constructing stuff without asking CE for permission (you have to IIRC, it's somewhere in the SoP), which you can be detained for. Like for example making a room somewhere and activelly do some shenanigans that are not really harmful (f.e. make room in maint but actively refuse to let heads and sec in). Maybe if you have RP buddies that you RP being in a union with you can make a meeting with them discuss some things, then go to NT Rep and demand higher pays from him. NT Rep is a role staright up for RP - f.e. mentioned situation.
Would love admin to say if that would be fine or not. Can't imagine why not.Tho you have to remember the whole background of every character is that the NT gave you what like 2 000 pages long contract that you signed for a reason or two and they unofficially own you.
You see when people talk about the strikes and mutiny in game, what people see in their minds is bunch of people screaming "SHITCURITY" and "NT IS SHIT WHERE IS MY PAY" and generally just being dicks, while cultists get the upper hand over sec by using the disctraction you provided them to make new base, or convert more people. I don't see myself how bunch of loud people doing strike are beneficial RP-wise to the round. I agree that Unions make sense ICly. They would exist. I will argue tho that they would not get violent unless something serious happens that crosses the line, and that I would argue would be a situation when you make adminhelp. That being said I don't think this would happen very often.I can agree that perhaps some of these alternatives could be interesting (bullying NT rep), however, I feel theres a contradiction in not wanting the union to make an impact. The union should want to be known during the round and be a driving force for what happens. Also, why wouldn't it be benificial RP wise? Conflict is integral to what people find fun on paradise, allowing people to scream and shout against command or sec on a massive scale has its own aesthetic/charm/impressiveness thats adds to the overall round experience. Think what it could achieve if it wasn't handicapped ooc/ic wise and capable of forcing command to actually negotiate instead of be busted as they inevitably always ends.
Overall, I just believe there is some sort of optimum fun rp related activity revolving around rebellion and unions that can be replicated effectively under the right circumstances and design, perhaps you do too. A reformed union-esqe RP mode can surely work (even though this scope is large to ask for) as well, along with other potential solutions.
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4 hours ago, necaladun said:
It's only fun for the people doing it, not for everyone else trying to do their jobs.
I don't believe protesting automatically affects engineers, cargo, rnd, or medbay to its detriment. Unionists should take their immediate surroundings into account, like no protesting when cultists are rampant. Moreover, unionists still get the short end of the stick most of the time with how handicapped they are when sec "does their job" and busts the movement for the 5000th time. Also, why should a player doing the same procedures of a monotonous job validate repressing others attempts at a more interesting RP experience? I just don't believe in the validity of that statement.
4 hours ago, necaladun said:Giving people "Some antag status" for starting a union will mean people will do it constantly for a free antag role.
This hasn't been proved; unions don't just sprout out of nowhere. Moreover, a system of asking admins still allows them to vet who just wants to antag and who wants to rp. A good ahelp detailing the reasons and goals for a union and why it can go violent if push comes to shove should be given more weight than a lazy ahelp that says their bored. It's not the only solution either, advising people to book union events pre-round or vouch for an RP rev mode is also in question.
4 hours ago, necaladun said:Part of the rules say you have to do the role you signed up for. Protesting and striking is the opposite of that.
Valid, but unions have never really been a detriment to station workings, that's the thing with unions that don't sprout immediately to harm "the station". An engineer finishing the SM and standing with a picket sign for a higher wage isn't as bad as an engineer forcefully converted into a rev by flash and not setting up the engine to attack his CE. Doing your obligation so the round runs smoothly isn't contradictory to protesting or "striking" afterwards, in my opinion. Thats the spirit of the rule right? What's more in line with the rule then to vouch for your working conditions as well?
4 hours ago, necaladun said:You can Ahelp for permission to do it, but there's no way this will be allowed automatically. It gets very old very fast.
I understand that you can ahelp but to what extent? Can violence to defend against sec oppression ever be proposed?
4 hours ago, necaladun said:This is something the staff have 0 interest in for the server.
Fine, I understand. I just thought there could’ve been more to this topic I genuinely believed can lead to more interesting RP scenarios and open command/sec eyes from monotonously union busting.
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Quote
Unions don't really make sense ICly. Nanotrasen is a big bad evil corporation, you think they'll support that kind of stuff?
OOCly it's far simpler, unions are used almost exclusively for self-antagging and are probably the most overplayed gimmick in the game. There's basically no situation where going around trying to organize a mob to beat down a department isn't going to be antagonistic, as you are causing security to focus on you rather than antagonists.
Unions do make sense ICly. NT is a big bad evil corporation who will fight tooth and nail to keep their crew's lives terrible, that's why UNIONS DO MAKE SENSE TO EXIST and why them being violent would make them more so. OOCly, of course the situation on the station does matter when someone tries to form a union, but it ussually should be due to an actual reason and when it's possible, players should put these into consideration. Moreover, gimmicks and being "overplayed"(as if any good gimmick isn't) shouldn't completely write it off, again it's a very flawed system that repeats itself because it isn't renovated. Still, it is kinda integral to Paradise lore, you're working for an evil megacorporation of course people would want to RP resisting it.
11 hours ago, Generaldonothing said:Generally, this is due to the union gathering a bunch of spears together and sitting in the front of the bridge. Distracting security as a non-antagonist is kind of a big common sense no-no. And uh, generally unfun for anyone not part of the union in round. Antagonist roles are in game for a reason.
This goes the same for peaceful protests most of the time as well, in most of my encounters its sec who mindlessly arrests everyone without consideration to actual roleplay and them or command should be given flack for it. I don't know about you but demonstrations and such were never so "unfun" to the extent you say. Also, the presence of antags shouldn't prohibit conflict, it's one of the factors that make RP fun.
11 hours ago, Generaldonothing said:11 hours ago, Aligote said:There are several potential solutions, perhaps there should be a process with admins where an ahelp that directly addresses a violent response to potential sec repression can lead to a CC or admin announcement about a movement that has the potential to go violent.
There is actually a simple solution to this, ahelp and ask to form a union. If they say yes (no response is a response, it means no), Generally, when people are given event roles, this goes far smoother as an admin will actually want to play along, and other people will also want to play along. Security isn't gonna get flack for doing it's job.
I dont know how this contradicts the suggestion/solution, the ahelp is to get an admin in on it. And if there is no response I dont believe that prohibits unionizing altogether.
QuotePara did actually have an RP revolution gamemode, and it was removed in this PR: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/4255
I do think this is more suited for adminbus stuff, however.Apparently, the former RP rev game mode had you sign up when a popup came up? I don't know what adminbus refers to....but um that's great, it could be renovated into a more consensual and bureaucratic process by perhaps joining through signature? Any solution and suggestion is welcome.
QuotePeople are already steered away from doing this stuff due to self antagging rules, cargonia is a good example of what unions often cause.
Exactly, due to self antagging laws, solutions like giving unionists some antag status due to IC occurrences is a solution. Cargonia is likely one of the most loved gimmicks out there to some. Interesting scenarios can arise and shouldn't be entirely wiped away. Anything that goes against NT interests are essentially antags, that doesn't mean they should be wiped away as binarily antithetic to what paradise should strive for. Not all unionists are self-antaging tiders and those interested in complex RP scenerios may never get their chance.
11 hours ago, Generaldonothing said:Self Antaging: Antagonizing without being an Antag - Self Antaging refers to players who decide to do actions that normally only a Antagonist would do, i.e; Murdering other players, heavily damaging the station or causing chaos on a mass scale.
Unions will cause chaos on a major scale, I'd talk with neca about adding something more specific to the advanced rules as they maintain that pageAppreciate this suggestion to make things clearer. Still I believe there’s a more RP oriented and nuanced solution.
11 hours ago, necaladun said:Small non violent talks of unions before have had NT stealth ops come in and kneecap people before, however.
Ye it's kinda sad how often restrained union activity is and what NT can do without any real resistance.
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Ok so i believe there is an inherent contradiction with how Union activity is done on the station OOC and IC. In game it is acknowledged that union activity and whatnot (protest, riots, and mutiny) do exist and justify sec repression of such activity, however, OOC it is stated by admins and rules that union members can't really do anything when sec does repress them. This leads to a common practice of someone organizing a demonstration, maybe one light tube is broken, sec arrests everyone as no one can really fight back without getting in trouble, and the movement just falls apart. I think there is an inherent issue with this due to the RP potential that is squandered, there is no stakes as security never really faces any reparations and command never really takes movements like protests or unions seriously (to negotiate with).
There are several potential solutions, perhaps there should be a process with admins where an ahelp that directly addresses a violent response to potential sec repression can lead to a CC or admin announcement about a movement that has the potential to go violent (and be allowed to).
Or perhaps potentially bringing back a certain game mode like revolutionary with a more RP lense. I remember getting an admin response about how there are antag revolutionary roles that exist for this.... which there isn't. I think everyone agrees when I state how nobody really RPed with organizing during rev rounds, just flashing people like cultists. Perhaps a more union organizing-based system mentioned before would be better.
And finally, i dont know, just rejecting all of this and steering people away to booking potentially violent union events on forums or something?
All of this could be done through editing rules or advanced rules, perhaps space law entry or a wikipage about unionizing as well. I just think there is an inherent contradiction with how unions usually go on paradise and suggest any change at all to be discussed and perhaps implemented.
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Station
My beginning on the station
I'm a Twenty-niner
Old enough to see that shit was strange around here
They announced no cont on comms
Due to workplace hazards
But all it did was let security bastardize whoever
But mostly grey assistants, but they would call us tiders
And stun us in the bellies with their fingers on them triggers
They put boots on our heads
Let Araneus bite our crotches
And they would beat us up if we had gas masks on our faces
And they would take our drugs and flashes as they picked our pockets
I guess that's just a privilege for them policin' degenerates
Cause thanks to NT practice
The gulag made them profits
And free labors the cornerstone of corporate economics!
Cause synthetic slaves were abolished, unless you are brigged in
You think I ain't got the brains to read the terms of my employment?
Involuntary servitude and slavery it rejected!
That's why they givin trespassers time in double digits!Cause the Captain is an actor, not a credit factor
Just an employee of the station's real masters
Just like the Magi, QMs and the headahs
Just another talking prick tellin lies on telecommas
If you don't believe the theory, then argue with this logic
Why did Cap and QMs both support mining Adrax!
Invading sovereign soil, going after minerals
Taking planets like a hobby paid for by their own lobby!
Same as in Ahdomai; and Plasma men's homeland
And Vedenin say they comin back again
They only love the rich, and how they loath the poor
If I say any more, they might be at my door
Shiieeet, who the fuck is that?
Steppin near my hideout?
Doing that surveillance, tryin to find my shit out
I'm dropping off the comms, before they pump the bullets
I leave yall with 5 words: I'm glad if station crashesSpoilerSource :)
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What's MOTD? You could also @ everyone on discord in announcements and force them to vote via reactions....
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Faction Relations
Like/ Neutral/ DESPISE
USSP: "Comrades, the light in the darkness."
SolGov: "I was born here; a despicable imperialist and undemocratic entity that deserves nothing but destruction."
Elysium Republic: "An incompetent reactionary government that practices slavery. Deserves more than just destruction."
Prospero Order: "Evil monsters who enslave subjects from the USSP. Deserve eternal suffering."
Nanotrasen: "One of the evilest corporate entities of all sentient history."
The Syndicate: "Two sides of the same coin to NT."
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Decided to move this here as I realized Civilian's Day isn't really the appropriate place to put it.
Tider's Routine
Listen kid I maybe been chasing money for a long long time
And I ain't making time, I've been way behind, so let me go drop you a few lines.
I know you wonder why I get nervous when you bringin your donk gun outside, because security see an armed assistant, that's on site.
Mask down, cause when you're mask up you get followed all the way through.
Music down, cause when your music up you get shot down, real close.
And I know you're new but still, them devils got no chill.
The bartender was just drinkin when the police busted in and got her killed.So pay attention kid.
Veteran passin on lessons
Just to keep you safe in the suit you in
Anything can be a weapon
They feel threatened by your sight
So when you experienced enough and you stride
Keep your card, your face, and your possessions up in plain sight
Don't dig in pockets or, in compartments, or they will beat on you so fast
Whether a rod, a phone or a candy bar they see contraband when it's in your hand
They assume you stealin from departments, so they gonna follow you for it
Or you probably gettin ignored, because the scientist think you can't afford it
They pull backpacks by their stall, radio security across the hall
Just stay cordial, and don't trip but if they flex boy by all meanssss
But just be you, and you'll be fine
You've just got to run harder than the head starter, damn I'm glad if your like-
Why would I wanna wanna wanna wanna wanna be like them?
Why would I wanna wanna wanna wanna wanna be like them?
So why would I wanna wanna wanna wanna wanna be like them?
Why would I wanna wanna wanna wanna wanna be like them?
We're all prey for the devil.Source (Cmon, you guys in badmin raps took from irl songs as well):
SpoilerCareer Assistant
This is rap mediation
Time to snap you right back into place
'Cause they be beggin for some shit from back from before 2000 daysI'm thinkin 2084 to 2093
Around the time lady Merlyne
Stood up proud and tall on her feet
For revolution, when revolution was still being hollered
Back when we could barely work for honor, workin a blue collarI am from the same time, but uphold a different code
I hope we are connected and I don't know
'Cause I know couple people listening is dealing with some bull-shit, ye, BULL-SHIT
Feel like throwin 'way your shit and stroll around for a bit
I'll throw you on my schedule and we take a station trip
Where we can visit the books and learn some real rev shit
Pollute radio waves with some real rev shitCause I'm a career assistant, below minimum wage
Make the comrades say Brrraat
Let crewmembers say Ayyyeee
Make crewmembers say Brrrraat
The comrades say Ayyeee
Make the comrades yell BRRAATT!!!!!
And crewmembers scream AYYYEEE!!!!!IRL Source:
SpoilerI'm Down
I'm down to fight an NT officer
I'm down to pull my PDA up just to start some shit
I'm down to link up with a gang full of gangs
And bang little homie do your thang, lettem have it bruh.
See i aint really trippin 'bout tresspassin
I'm focused on the peoples arresting for the action
The stupid fucks who believe what they believe
You'd better be dead on the rope, fuckin with someone like me shiiiet
I'm down to kill an NT officer
I'm down to put a sign up just to settle shit
I'm down to link up with gangs full of gangs
And brrang little homie do your thang, lettem have it bruh
Spoiler-
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https://paradisestation.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
The civilian link in the main page redirects to the miscellaneous section of the roles page. It's kinda confusing how miscellaneous is a subsection of civilian, which also includes supply and service. I suggest just changing "Civilian" located at "Jobs and Roles" of the main page to "Miscellaneous".
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Am I wrong to want to keep people who don't work in the same department as me out of my workplace?
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Aligote
This is a legit perspective, however, there are also situations like this:
Assistant: *Waves at the chef and points to locker with meat.
Chef: *Opens the door and takes the locker away. Assistant accompanies the locker.
Assistant: Hey so uh, I was this thinking. Maybe I could get us some cleavers and start a bistro tog-
Chef: *Neck chops assistant and kicks him out before his text bubble appears.
*repeat behavior every shift
Just to say, perhaps reconsider the situation, and if you really just wanna play by yourself like that.
Like seriously, when the chef is absent, the kitchen being turned into a soup kitchen is an experience in itself. The crew has to work together to make what they can and usually, it's an assistant who has to commit and carry that situation.
Just to say-
I don't think this is a healthy perspective. Seriously, conflating assistants with shitty behavior overall and using that to justify shitty behavior back is such a flawed mindset. How can you conflate every flaw assistants may commit as justification to treat them like dogs that need to be "kept out"? I know people may be weathered by shitters but does this make such animosity justified? I don't think it is.
So even if an assistant is invited in because someone understands they could be trusted, there is an issue of metagaming and "getting in the way"? People can form professional relationships without it negatively impacting anything. An assistant can be helpful as their name suggests, and they shouldn't be obligated to "ask for a job" to have the autonomy to do their original job.
I'll be frank, I understand assistant shitting is an issue. However, the number of incidents of security officers finding any reason to arrest someone or the unjustified animosity of some players for their workspace is a prevalent issue that should also be addressed.
Ultimately, I think this behavior of "protecting your workspace" is understandable but flawed. This isn't just about assistants, this issue applies to all of the crew who can walk. I think the best thing is to just understand that this is a cooperative game and although walling yourself in may be understandable, it's not something I really condone. Also, respect assistants, I hope this entire thread wasn't just about assistants.