Changes to Antags

[Jared12100]

 

I think that antags shouldn't be given a free pass to murder everyone in sight. Other servers use a rule that: If you're an antag you can only kill your targets or security or anyone else REASONABLY. Meaning you cant just kill people for no reason I.E killing a witness. In terms of changelings they should only be able to kill up to the amount of DNA points they need for their objective and their targets, afterwards they need good reason.

 

I'd also like to see a change to how Traitor and Double Agent work. Specifically. If the round is NOT double agent, Traitors shouldn't have to kill one another for their objectives. Even from a lore stance this makes no sense, in normal traitor the syndicate sends agents to ss13 to preform various tasks. why would they have their agents kill one another while also giving the ones they want killed objectives? It makes no sense. In double agent it does since there is treachery amongst the traitors.

 

Changelings should be nerfed. Overall they are much more powerful when compared to similar antag types such as traitors. As such I think there should only be at most 3 changlings per round instead of the standard of about 8. Vampires, Traitors, Shadowlings, and Abductors all function, to some degree, in a similar matter. But changlings will almost always get away with what they do unless they are either really bad or really unlucky. All other antag types have some kind of weakness: Vampires have the chapel, space, and the chaplain. Traitors generally are easy to identify as they wont be able to kill their targets or steal and get away with it, plus they need items which can be found and used to prove they're traitors. Shadowlings are afraid of the light. Abductors normally dont kill people so its easy to know when they're around. But changlings, should they be suspected and change ID's perfectly and be in the clear in a snap. Combined with tools of killing that are a part of their body that can be used in public without anyone noticing such as cryosting. With so much at their disposal I think the changlings should be very few in number. OR you could implement a gigantic nerf to their abilites, maybe they dont PERFECTLY steal DNA, and chemicals shouldn't regen over time. Just an example. Personally I think that less changlings would be better.

 

Wizards should no longer have disintegrate. That, or disintegrate should be nerfed in that it only works on people who are in critical condition or dead. Rather than being a free insta-kill.

 

Overall I think my ideas are decent and fair. But if anyone has any input it would be great to hear.

 

Jared12100

in game: Steven Phillips

 

[necaladun]

 

On the first point:

 

Antags are not allowed given free pass to murder everyone on sight.

 

"The role of antagonist may pit you against the station, however this is not grounds for murderboning the entire crew if your objective is to steal a jetpack. You may, however, antagonize/murder specific people who will help you complete your objective or who are hindering you from completing said objective"

 

 

If you think something broke that, ahelp/playercomplaint.

 

As for traitors taking each other out lore wise - the syndicate is not one organisation, but a variety of groups, including people working for NT. They aren't all co-ordinated by the same people, and the syndicate often want their own agents taken out to punish them for past failures or mistakes. Traitors betraying each other makes for some great RP and unexpected excitement.

 

I see a lot of changlings get killed, I would not say they almost always get away with what they do.

 

Wizards are meant to be a challenge for the entire crew. Disintergrate is not actually that dangerous compared to some of their nastier tricks.

 

[IK3I]

 

I think that antags shouldn't be given a free pass to murder everyone in sight

 

They can't just murder for the point of murderboning. An antag is given loose restrictions on what they can do but the freedom to go about their task in the way they see fit is pretty core to the way paradise is played.

 

I'd also like to see a change to how Traitor and Double Agent work. Specifically. If the round is NOT double agent, Traitors shouldn't have to kill one another for their objectives. Even from a lore stance this makes no sense, in normal traitor the syndicate sends agents to ss13 to preform various tasks. why would they have their agents kill one another while also giving the ones they want killed objectives? It makes no sense. In double agent it does since there is treachery amongst the traitors.

 

If you go a little deeper into the syndicate as a faction, you will see that they are actually a group of factions that are acting in their own interests. Those interests include colluding with each other (document trades, shared comms and whatnot). However, they are still independent agencies acting in their own self interest, which is why you see the occasional hit against another agent or the doc trade gone south objective.

 

Changelings should be nerfed.

I kind of agree, but at the same time, as an IPC player, I'm heavily biased

 

That out of the way, Changelings are in a decent place. However, If there is a nerf to be made, I would suggest it be in slight balancing their abilities. The potency of their emp paired with the short cd for instance means they can instant kill any IPC or drain all the energy from that shiny new gun of yours and have it up again in a short period of time or still have enough left over to grow an arm blade. Additionally, some abilities are very cheap to purchase for the utility provided. reducing the number is likely to just result in shorter or less interactive rounds.

 

Wizards should no longer have disintegrate. That, or disintegrate should be nerfed in that it only works on people who are in critical condition or dead. Rather than being a free insta-kill.

 

Wiznerds are meant to be overpowered super antags in the same vein as nuke ops. Them having an instant kill is core to this, plus it's more balanced in the acquisition side of things than in the use side. Taking the instagib button requires you to sacrifice your ability to act for one minute after each use unless you take another damage spell or raid the armory and start shooting. Wizards only have ten points to spend and have to be pretty frugal as is.

 

[Rurik]

I strongly feel Changelings are in a good place, and that a nerf would be unneeded. Changelings, in my experience, rarely escape "unpunished". A lot of changelings fail horribly, and I am not just saying that because I always fail horribly! If a player plays changeling well, and uses his abilities smartly, they can be nigh unstoppable. However, the same can be said for Vampires, Wizard, Shadowlings, and so on. I do not see the issue here.

[davidchan]

 

Well changing could use a retool so walking down a crowded hallway is all they need to to get their genome objectives. Why the hell do they need combat powers if their primary method of feeding can be done without your victim knowing?

 

Vampires how ever, are not in a good place. Can't say I ever liked them to begin with but their power set is insanely op; aoe stun that has no counters, jaunt which makes no sense for vampires and is a wizard thing, spawn bats which is space carp+, and the ability to overcome their primary weaknesses. All of which can be unlocked, spammed and used with impunity within the first 15 of a round since nonsentient mobs from genetics can feed their power and they can easily jaunt right in even without a related job. And that's just the tip of the iceberg

 

[necaladun]

 

Agree that the genome objective is useless due to the sting - could be something more interesting.

 

Vampires are blood dependent. Anything with access to humanized monkeys is insanely more powerful than any other job for them. This really feels completely against he spirit and the point of vampires. It should only be living sentient mobs (ie, players) due to them needing...soul energy...or something.

 

[davidchan]

Even without the monkies, Glare (their AoE stun) is FREE. Its unlocked from the start, costs 0 blood and only has a 30 second cooldown for what I believe is a 10 second stun. Useable while prone or otherwise stunned yourself. The only people immune to it are Borgs, other vamps and thralls.

[Machofish]

 

As someone who primarily plays in sec, my advice is to keep practicing and eventually you'll get better. As it still stands, playing as an antag and succeeding is already immensely difficult. Security may be the 'good guys', but that does not mean they should always be in an advantageous position to win, nor should they be in a position to take down 100% of all antags over the course of a round - traitors in particular need their absurd numbers to divide security's attention, or they'd all be caught the moment they started trying to work towards their objectives. The problem I see often is that Sec doesn't adapt or escalate their response to suit the threats facing them. A traitor RD subverting the AI would justify a much more aggressive response than a civilian with a chameleon projector, for instance. The only instance where antags get a free pass is for the hijack objective: frankly, there's only one reliable tactic for hijacking while minimizing deaths, and it happens so often that it's become expected and boring.

 

About Changelings

For changelings, I'm personally alright with their array of abilities - with the exception of their 'swap form' and 'transform sting' abilities: Considering this server still carries the veneer of being 'Medium' roleplay, I somehow get the impression that most people do not find it an engaging 'Medium roleplay' experience to be involuntarily forced out of their customized character and into a neon-colored furry clown for the rest of the shift. Being killed is fine, being removed from the round is fine - being forced to play as someone's deliberately hideous borderline-blasphemous Mary Sue furry OC without any way of going back, or knowing which changeling did it to you is, in my opinion, not fine. Granted - not everyone cares about RP: some of us just want to ignore RP, mash the 'randomize' button a few times then run around spouting stale memes while responding to all disapproval with screeching and toolboxing - but it would be nice if we stopped adding game mechanics that exclusively catered to low/no-RP gameplay styles.

 

In the past, there originally was a way to 'litmus test' for changelings by diluting their blood into a cup of welding fuel - this was more meant to be a 'cherry on top' to confirm a changeling who had been sloppy enough to leave an evidence trail. The problem with welderfuel testing was that security and command would often take this to an extreme by procedurally going through all departments and rooting the changelings out through a mindless process of elimination, so it was removed. Changelings are difficult to track, but once they reveal themselves it's very difficult for them to completely regain their anonymity as long as the crew and security are diligent in tracking them.

 

For changelings, I will add to the other sentiments here that they're alright if they aren't being played for the express purpose of causing pointless, profitless agony for other players. Covering up evidence as a changeling is a time-consuming process, and the more time spent on disposing evidence, the greater risk of being caught. Furthermore, their combat-oriented abilities aren't uniquely more or less dangerous when compared to similar means available to other antags such as traitors or vampires.

 

About Wizards

I find that wizards, in their current rendition, are tiresome antags - either wizard rounds end too quickly because the wizard dies early, or the round becomes a 2 hour grind of continuous, gratuitous, senseless murderboning. The only real way to have fun during a wizard round is to either be the wizard who's steadily and systematically depopulating the server, or a slaughter demon who is also steadily and systematically depopulating the server. Disintegrate is only one ability out of an enormous grab-bag of low-effort, high-output spells that a wizard can use to remove enormous numbers of players from the round very quickly. This has only been made worse now that the wizards no longer get proper objectives aside from "Murderbone and don't stop 'till you drop." but that's a discussion for another thread. What I'm trying to say here is that while I agree wizards aren't exactly optimal in terms of enjoyability, removing a single ability will hardly change much when the problems with this particular antag exist on a much more fundamental level.

 

[apneaman]

 

The only thing i could see to change with changelings is the dna objective. Possibly change it so you must absorb or change alot more in order to gain another from sting

 

E.x. yesterday i only absorbed my co-worker, took his place and gathered the rest with sting.

 

The biggest enemy of a changeling is a high pop round as the usual hiding spots for absorbing are now swarming with civilians.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Here's how double agents work:

"OH SHIT SECURITY I'M A DOUBLE AGENT GIVE PROTECTIONS AND I'LL TELL YOU WHO ANOTHER DOUBLE AGENT IS."

"OH SHIT SECURITY CAUGHT ME WAIT GUYS I'LL GIVE YOU MY TARGET BECAUSE THEY'RE AN AGENT TOO."

"HOLY SHIT GUYS WE'RE FUCKING KILLING ALL THE DOUBLE AGENTS WE HAVE SO MUCH SKILL."

 

[Dinarzad]

 

... jaunt which makes no sense for vampires and is a wizard thing...

 

Pedantic mode aaaaaactivaaaaate:

Vampire's jaunt ability is called "Mist Form" cuz in certain Vampire or Dracula mythos, they can turn into a cloud of mist to get into otherwise impossible cases.

Going through walls is, however, weird and it might be more interesting to make Mist Form a temporary ability to Vent-crawl or pass through airlocks or windows something, instead of solid metal bulkheads.

Would at least fir the flavor a little more.

 

[Rurik]

 

Well changing could use a retool so walking down a crowded hallway is all they need to to get their genome objectives. Why the hell do they need combat powers if their primary method of feeding can be done without your victim knowing?

 

Vampires how ever, are not in a good place. Can't say I ever liked them to begin with but their power set is insanely op; aoe stun that has no counters, jaunt which makes no sense for vampires and is a wizard thing, spawn bats which is space carp+, and the ability to overcome their primary weaknesses. All of which can be unlocked, spammed and used with impunity within the first 15 of a round since nonsentient mobs from genetics can feed their power and they can easily jaunt right in even without a related job. And that's just the tip of the iceberg

Agree that the genome objective is useless due to the sting - could be something more interesting.

 

Vampires are blood dependent. Anything with access to humanized monkeys is insanely more powerful than any other job for them. This really feels completely against he spirit and the point of vampires. It should only be living sentient mobs (ie, players) due to them needing...soul energy...or something.

 

I agree with changelings needing a rework in terms of obtaining genomes. Its pretty silly with all that combat prowness, they never even need to harm a soul to get all genome objectives accomplished. I personally always liked the idea of obtaining 8 genomes meant you had to absorb 8 people the hard way. However I know that would lead to more "murderboning" so many would dislike that idea.

 

As far as vampires go I do not have much input, but the idea of getting virtually infinite blood from simple humanized mobs has always left a foul taste in my mouth. Even more so when others without such benefits have to ration the blood they have wisely.

 

[necaladun]

The problem with the old way of getting genomes was that that's 8 people removed from the round for good usually, so it's pretty murderboney and salt inducing. With 5 changlings, that's a lot of murderbone. That's not too bad per se, but I think changelings should focus more on infiltration and impersonation than combat.

[davidchan]

 

... jaunt which makes no sense for vampires and is a wizard thing...

 

Pedantic mode aaaaaactivaaaaate:

Vampire's jaunt ability is called "Mist Form" cuz in certain Vampire or Dracula mythos, they can turn into a cloud of mist to get into otherwise impossible cases.

Going through walls is, however, weird and it might be more interesting to make Mist Form a temporary ability to Vent-crawl or pass through airlocks or windows something, instead of solid metal bulkheads.

Would at least fir the flavor a little more.

 

If that's suppose to be their mist and/or bat form its way of the source material. Mist form was slow and only really used when they were lethally wounded. It was also supposed to be slow method of travel.

 

Makes them invisible, no clip and stupidly fast travel speed, can be used as long as the vamp is concious, a which combined with their stun removal and X-ray means they can gg-nore situations they shouldn't be able to.

 

[Dinarzad]

 

... jaunt which makes no sense for vampires and is a wizard thing...

 

Pedantic mode aaaaaactivaaaaate:

Vampire's jaunt ability is called "Mist Form" cuz in certain Vampire or Dracula mythos, they can turn into a cloud of mist to get into otherwise impossible cases.

Going through walls is, however, weird and it might be more interesting to make Mist Form a temporary ability to Vent-crawl or pass through airlocks or windows something, instead of solid metal bulkheads.

Would at least fir the flavor a little more.

 

If that's suppose to be their mist and/or bat form its way of the source material. Mist form was slow and only really used when they were lethally wounded. It was also supposed to be slow method of travel.

 

Makes them invisible, no clip and stupidly fast travel speed, can be used as long as the vamp is concious, a which combined with their stun removal and X-ray means they can gg-nore situations they shouldn't be able to.

 

Oh yea no, it's pretty bullshit.

Just that it's SUPPOSED to be a mist form.

 

[necaladun]

Vampires are bluespace creatures who phase shift when in mist form.