[Resolved] HoP access

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Not sure if bug or not, but the HoP has Construction site, maintenance and engineering access. I don't know if he is supposed to be able to move round in engineering but to get inside engineering (even the foyer) he would either need power equipment access or atmos access, engineering access is not going to cut it. I have just tested it with a bunch of IDs at round end.

 

If HoP is not supposed to be inside of engineering that's fine by me, just wondering why he has the engineering and construction site access.

 

Edited December 9, 2014 by Guest

[Fj45]

Yeah, that seems pretty weird that he can access engineering.

[Streaky Haddock]

Maybe he's not supposed to be able to access engineering, but is supposed to have APC access? I know APC access uses Engineering.

[Spacemanspark]

You can remove it if you want, but most Head of Personnel players secretly just make their ID all access anyways. Unless we can somehow prevent that, it really won't matter.

[Eldrin-Kanthos]

 

You can remove it if you want, but most Head of Personnel players secretly just make their ID all access anyways. Unless we can somehow prevent that, it really won't matter.

HoP is nit supposed to and admins get very upset about it. DO NOT GIVE ANYONE ALL ACCESS, NOT EVEN YOURSELF.

 

[Sheakhan]

 

I really don't see the big deal with HoP giving themselves all access. Sure, it's abuse of their position but ultimately only two sorts of people are going to misuse all access. Griefers, and Antags.

 

The former will get banned, the latter should use every advantage they can get.

 

I've played two HoP characters primarily. One never gives themselves all access. The second does, as a rule, and uses it to swipe a bottle of booze if the bartender isn't present/uncooperative, and grab the Blueshield's fancy lighter if the Blueshield is out. Never otherwise used the access for nefarious deeds as a non-antag and frankly I don't see the issue.

 

I've seen people throw a lot of fits lately on the same vein: "People shouldn't have access to X item or Y area because they might do Z horrible thing with it!"...and?

 

If the job should have something, or some access, give it to them if it makes sense. Don't be concerned with what they might do with it because, as I said before, only two types of people will abuse their access/items, and one of those types of people will be banned anyhow.

 

That's like congress passing a law that states: "Nobody can own matches because they might light fuses and blow stuff up, or start fires and shit." You don't make rules or laws to prevent violations, you make them to establish what violations are.

 

So, in this instance, give the HoP the access he should have if he's lacking, take it away if he has too much. If you're worried about HoP abusing full engineering access than make it known that fucking up engineering as the HoP is a violation of server rules and warrants a ban. Bam, problem solved.

 

[Streaky Haddock]

 

I'm not massively happy about admins banning people for making their IDs all-access because it's taking away from the things IA/Security can prosecute for.

 

I still maintain you should give blueshields (good ones, anyway) all access all the time. The access limitations for blueshield is very tedious given the wide range of people you're supposed to protect and check in on.

 

[Eldrin-Kanthos]

 

I really don't see the big deal with HoP giving themselves all access. Sure, it's abuse of their position but ultimately only two sorts of people are going to misuse all access. Griefers, and Antags.

 

The former will get banned, the latter should use every advantage they can get.

 

I've played two HoP characters primarily. One never gives themselves all access. The second does, as a rule, and uses it to swipe a bottle of booze if the bartender isn't present/uncooperative, and grab the Blueshield's fancy lighter if the Blueshield is out. Never otherwise used the access for nefarious deeds as a non-antag and frankly I don't see the issue.

 

I've seen people throw a lot of fits lately on the same vein: "People shouldn't have access to X item or Y area because they might do Z horrible thing with it!"...and?

 

If the job should have something, or some access, give it to them if it makes sense. Don't be concerned with what they might do with it because, as I said before, only two types of people will abuse their access/items, and one of those types of people will be banned anyhow.

 

That's like congress passing a law that states: "Nobody can own matches because they might light fuses and blow stuff up, or start fires and shit." You don't make rules or laws to prevent violations, you make them to establish what violations are.

 

So, in this instance, give the HoP the access he should have if he's lacking, take it away if he has too much. If you're worried about HoP abusing full engineering access than make it known that fucking up engineering as the HoP is a violation of server rules and warrants a ban. Bam, problem solved.

I play NT recruiter a lot, and once recruiting was done I would frequently help around the station, no griefing and nothing immersion breaking. The other week I was Admin PMed that I better get rid of my all access and that I should notify them of any HoPs with all access. Newest round of admins seem to take this very seriously.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Maybe he's not supposed to be able to access engineering, but is supposed to have APC access? I know APC access uses Engineering.

Fair point, i am just wondering why a HoP has basic acces to Security, Medbay, Science but can't make a single step into Engineering. Maybe the Engineering foyer, the gear room and the small hallway in front of the CEs office should just require engineering access to enter? So you could reach the CE office. Issn't it like that in every other department? Medbay access let's you inside the Mebay, not the specific rooms.

 

You can remove it if you want, but most Head of Personnel players secretly just make their ID all access anyways. Unless we can somehow prevent that, it really won't matter.

What other people do to game the system doesn't really interests me (that's for the admins to decide), i will play the HoP as he is supposed to be played. With or without Engineering access.

 

I really don't see the big deal with HoP giving themselves all access. Sure, it's abuse of their position but ultimately only two sorts of people are going to misuse all access. Griefers, and Antags.

This is meta gaming. Probably a violation of the rules, i would be careful with this. With this mindset you could just hand out all access IDs at the round start. Because hey, i give like 40 non antags all access but only like 5 antags.

 

Most of the player just don't have enough self-restraint to use additional access reasonably, if i give a security officer all access to medbay, you can be damn sure he will go in there and try to play doctor whenever it fits him. He will get in the way of actual doctors and meta game the shit out of everything and perform brain surgery as a security guard. On his way out he will raid the chemistry and make himself some oxycodone because he has access, right? It's not only his privilege to go inside, IT'S HIS FRIGGING DUTY!

 

If a HoP drags someone into cloning (which he should have no access to) and starts cloning him (which he should not know how to do) while i am playing a doctor just waiting for some work, i get this gigantic urge to buy the HoP a one way ticket down disposals, back to his department and area of expertise.

 

[Sheakhan]

 

This is meta gaming. Probably a violation of the rules, i would be careful with this. With this mindset you could just hand out all access IDs at the round start. Because hey, i give like 40 non antags all access but only like 5 antags.

 

Most of the player just don't have enough self-restraint to use additional access reasonably, if i give a security officer all access to medbay, you can be damn sure he will go in there and try to play doctor whenever it fits him. He will get in the way of actual doctors and meta game the shit out of everything and perform brain surgery as a security guard. On his way out he will raid the chemistry and make himself some oxycodone because he has access, right? It's not only his privilege to go inside, IT'S HIS FRIGGING DUTY!

 

If a HoP drags someone into cloning (which he should have no access to) and starts cloning him (which he should not know how to do) while i am playing a doctor just waiting for some work, i get this gigantic urge to buy the HoP a one way ticket down disposals, back to his department and area of expertise.

 

Metagaming is when you use Out of Game knowledge to influence in game decisions.

So, if I gave myself all access in anticipation of a wizard or traitor round, or to allow me to go snag some nifty things from the unoccupied R&D office, yes, it would be meta gaming.

 

When I give myself all access, it's because my character doesn't like asking for help and will do his damnedest to be self-sufficient. He rarely uses his extended access save to pilfer comfort items when they aren't being used: Cigars, Flasks, Lighters. The shiny ones, because he's a hedonist. It's not a use of out of game information at all, and certainly doesn't influence my game-altering decisions.

 

This mindset has nothing at all in common with "Give everyone all access, most of them aren't traitors! lulz!"

I wouldn't do that for any reason unless I was a traitor and sowing chaos was the best way to get my objectives done.

 

What IS meta gaming, however, is not giving somebody something (access or items) in game because of your Out of Game belief that they will abuse it. That is just as much a meta game action as the person you give all access to doing jobs they shouldn't know how to do, and SHOULD be a bannable offense if you're somehow caught.

 

That being said, I'm firmly against the school of thought that says "Punish/restrict everyone based on what they MIGHT do" it's foolish, and only negatively impacts the people who weren't going to do those things anyhow.

 

When I play HoP, I play HoP. The only things I'll do outside my area of expertise are making myself drinks (read: filling a flask with liquor), shooting anybody who breaks into my office (command staff probably have basic weapons training, and I miss on purpose some times to make it more reasonable), and on ONE rare occasion, brute-forcing my way to figuring out how to make Space Drugs because holy crap it was a scary shift and I needed to cut loose.

 

That is the responsible way to play a character. You don't do shit your character wouldn't know how to do, you don't deliberately ruin other people's games, and you stay in character.

 

So sure, there are some people who will abuse all access, and I agree that is wrong. But you punish those people when they do break the rules or abuse their capacity, not everyone else.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Metagaming is when you use Out of Game knowledge to influence in game decisions.

You were mentioning that creating all access IDs is ok, because there are only few players (antags & griefers) that would abuse it, assuming the others are not allowed by the server rules. This is clearly out of game knowledge.

 

What IS meta gaming, however, is not giving somebody something (access or items) in game because of your Out of Game belief that they will abuse it.

This is both an IC and OOC concern. Everyone should have sufficient access with his default IDs to do his job. There should be a good reason to give addional access and there are people that should be notified and have to aggree when handing out additional access. Hence the paperwork and signatures of Heads of Staff.

 

Also if a HoP creates himself (or the blueshield) an all access ID, then their is basicly a thrid captain ID on the station, which is a major security concern in itself.

 

When I give myself all access, it's because my character doesn't like asking for help and will do his damnedest to be self-sufficient. He rarely uses his extended access save to pilfer comfort items when they aren't being used: Cigars, Flasks, Lighters. The shiny ones, because he's a hedonist. It's not a use of out of game information at all, and certainly doesn't influence my game-altering decisions.

This could be both, the definition of your character or an excuse for defaulting to giving yourself an all access ID. It's not my intention to judge you and i am willing to believe that you don't missuse this access for more than aquireing shinys, but their are others that do abuse it and don't think the general idea of HoPs giving themself all access is a good thing.

 

Edit:

Also i would like to get back on topic. Is the the HoP is supposed to be able to enter the basic areas of engineering (the foyer, the equipment room and the small hallway in front of the CEs office)

 

[fludd12]

Personally, I believe that HoP with all access makes a lot of sense for his job; He is next in line to become captain, and he oversees all staff.

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Personally, I believe that HoP with all access makes a lot of sense for his job; He is next in line to become captain, and he oversees all staff.

That's the thing tought, he is not supposed to oversee anything other than the service departments (bar, kitchen, janitor ..) and the cargo area where he has the Quatermaster to do most of this work. I believe he were also responsible to collect performance reviews of other departments, but this never happend and now there is an NT Rep to do just that.

 

It is true that his responsibilities and authority greatly expands when he is acting captain and of course then it's ok for him to have Captain-ish access. But until then he has technically zero authority over Science, Medbay, Security and Engineering. Of course his word is worth more to a engineer as the word of an civilian, because who want's to anger an Head of Staff, but the Engineer would have the right to ignore orders from the HoP.

 

[necaladun]

 

Giving yourself all access as the HoP, while there is an active Captain, without their permission, is a crime.

 

The HoP is loyalty implanted, so would pretty much always avoid committing said crime.

 

However, I've often created a separate ID, with the name/job of "Emergency Override" with all access, which is then stored in my PDA or hidden in a box in my locker or under Ian's hat or something.

 

Generally I do this if I think the Captain is a comdom, or about to die, or there's a red alert, etc.

 

The difference I see is that

1 - I don't accidentally gain access to something I shouldn't

2 - It's clear when I use it I'm using it for emergency reasons

3 - It's less likely to be stolen

4 - It can be easily given to someone such as the HoS or a blueshield

 

 

YMMV, of course.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Giving yourself all access as the HoP, while there is an active Captain, without their permission, is a crime.

 

The HoP is loyalty implanted, so would pretty much always avoid committing said crime.

 

However, I've often created a separate ID, with the name/job of "Emergency Override" with all access, which is then stored in my PDA or hidden in a box in my locker or under Ian's hat or something.

 

Generally I do this if I think the Captain is a comdom, or about to die, or there's a red alert, etc.

 

The difference I see is that

1 - I don't accidentally gain access to something I shouldn't

2 - It's clear when I use it I'm using it for emergency reasons

3 - It's less likely to be stolen

4 - It can be easily given to someone such as the HoS or a blueshield

 

 

YMMV, of course.

Funny enough, one of the recent updates removed the Head of Personnel loyalty implant.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

However, I've often created a separate ID, with the name/job of "Emergency Override" with all access, which is then stored in my PDA or hidden in a box in my locker or under Ian's hat or something.

 

Generally I do this if I think the Captain is a comdom, or about to die, or there's a red alert, etc.

Seems reasonable to me to have a Emergency ID in this cases. It beeing on a different ID gives you some sort of self control and others a good indication when you might step out of line.

 

[Eldrin-Kanthos]

 

Giving yourself all access as the HoP, while there is an active Captain, without their permission, is a crime.

 

The HoP is loyalty implanted, so would pretty much always avoid committing said crime.

 

However, I've often created a separate ID, with the name/job of "Emergency Override" with all access, which is then stored in my PDA or hidden in a box in my locker or under Ian's hat or something.

 

Generally I do this if I think the Captain is a comdom, or about to die, or there's a red alert, etc.

 

The difference I see is that

1 - I don't accidentally gain access to something I shouldn't

2 - It's clear when I use it I'm using it for emergency reasons

3 - It's less likely to be stolen

4 - It can be easily given to someone such as the HoS or a blueshield

 

 

YMMV, of course.

Funny enough, one of the recent updates removed the Head of Personnel loyalty implant.

Which I find odd and not smart. The job is second in command and right next to station accounts.... Embezzlement every round!

 

[Fj45]

 

However, I've often created a separate ID, with the name/job of "Emergency Override" with all access, which is then stored in my PDA or hidden in a box in my locker or under Ian's hat or something.

 

 

This is a very, very good idea and can easily help win a nuke round. Everyone but that engineer has broken bones? Chuck the emergency ID, hand him the disk and tell him to run like hell.

 

Also great for sending a distress message.

 

[johannhawk]

 

tl;dr to most of this

but when im HoP i sometimes sneak into botany for my own custom job Diona army

 

[Eldrin-Kanthos]

 

I was working Virology this morning and the HoP came into my lab with a egun set to lethal and just stared at me for 2-3 minutes after I cautiously said hi.

 

He finally asks if I had seen any spiders and walks off after I say no. Scary moment for me.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

As Neca said, giving yourself additional access as HoP is more or less "illegal" under space law, as is him doing so then looting the armory---but if the HoP isn't actively griefing/ruining other people's rounds, this is largely an IC issue.

 

One interesting feature we could implement is the ability for the HoP to open/close job slots....because obviously, all job slots should be closed and 50 clown positions should be opened in their stead (joking aside, this is pretty much my reservation on the feature).

 

[PJB3005]

 

I don't see why giving yourself all acess isn't allowed (anymore),

 

from an OOC perspective: slight, SLIGHT self antagging, and if you get it secretly, without anybody else knowing, nobody will give a shit anyways, unless you're a dumbass who blatantly uses it.

 

IC: you, are on a space station, that has more than a third of the shift including blobs, nuke ops, xenos, traitors, wizards, lings, whatever (last time I checked your character knowing this from other shifts was okay, if it wasn't, count potential shit that might have already gone down, like there currently being xenos and understaffed sec), you KNOW that all acess WILL save your/other's life(s) sometime, not to mention shit like characters being greedy and/or slightly naughty.

 

[Sheakhan]

 

I was working Virology this morning and the HoP came into my lab with a egun set to lethal and just stared at me for 2-3 minutes after I cautiously said hi.

 

He finally asks if I had seen any spiders and walks off after I say no. Scary moment for me.

 

It was more like 2-3 seconds.

 

Those spiders had it coming. Unfortunately Rogue is a terrible shot.

 

[Eldrin-Kanthos]

 

I was working Virology this morning and the HoP came into my lab with a egun set to lethal and just stared at me for 2-3 minutes after I cautiously said hi.

 

He finally asks if I had seen any spiders and walks off after I say no. Scary moment for me.

 

It was more like 2-3 seconds.

 

Those spiders had it coming. Unfortunately Rogue is a terrible shot.

It felt longer. I am VERY aware of how allergic my IPC is to lasers.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

I will just go ahead and assume it's by design that HoPs don't get default access to engineering and have the engineering access only to access APCs.

 

Marking this as Resolved