Admin Complaint: Spacemanspark

[trexter555]

Admin Key: Spacemanspark

Your Discord name (if applicable): Kharvoz

Complaint: During the rev round, after I got captured by the RD and brought bridge, whoever was pulling me stopped pulling me so i was just running around the bridge cuffed, then Spark (The AI) opens the internal bridge door infront of me. I walk in, he closes it and doorcrushes me to death. His lawset was robocop at the time, and law one of robocop is serving the public trust. I'm pretty sure killing a cuffed rev(not even a revhead) isn't serving the public trust. On any default lawset I'm pretty sure killing a cuffed rev that's in a secure area isn't allowed, and an admin should know that. Before I was captured, I ahelped asking if I could bomb the bridge as a rev, and Spark told me no, so I didn't bomb the bridge or bring bombs to the bridge. I suspect that Spark killed me because of my ahelp earlier about bombing the bridge, because I see no other reason why he would kill me.

[Dumbdumn5]

Upon looking into the issue, Spark thought that the policy on rev, a rare roundtype selected only at the risk of online admins, was that it wasn't permitted in important areas (i.e. bridge, major halls, engine.) and was informed that, after the round had ended, revs were able to bomb areas to get to heads directly. apologies for the confusion on that. The second part of the complaint involving the robocop AI lawset, apparently revs were both confirmed and numerous at the time, and the public trust regarding non-rev crew is likely better to eliminate the threat of a mindcontrolled revolt. They began to doorcrush you after you had escaped the heads and were out maneuvering them at the time. However, I can see how killing might have been too far in this instance if you were a normal rev and there wasn't much chaos or mass revolt outside, but if this were the case I'd expect that you'd be brought to security or somewhere more secure and less central than bridge.

As I wasn't in the round, I'd like to ask who the heads were at the time and others who had witnessed the event so I can get a few different perspectives on the whole issue before drawing and sound conclusions. Either post them here, in this complaint, or over my discord DMs.

[Vangar200]

I was the blueshield at the round time. I was on the bridge when he was dragged in too. There were MANY revolutionaries and we only trusted the implanted people. I had made all the heads of staff stay on the bridge or in security. So when a revolution gets loose on the bridge, I didn't know what was going to happen. There was no way to test if he was a rev head yet(cargo was still waiting on the implants), considering the only way to test it was traveling up to security, which the CMO neglected to listen to the warning and had just been decapitated. He wasn't brought onto the bridge to be executed, but when he's going to escape, it seemed like the better option than to have someone of the sort running around. I supported sparks decision on killing him due to the numerous amount of suspected people.

[Spacemanspark]

2 hours ago, Keluandrie said:

After Spark was called out about his murder being unjustified under his laws in dchat, he denied it, and after it was pointed out that doorcrushing a cuffed and trapped prisoner wasn't serving the public trust, protecting the innocent, nor upholding the law

He's not in the public trust at that point, he was most certainly not innocent, and as far as the law is concerned he had committed murder/ attempted murder and was escaping, cuffed or not (command was unable to even touch him while he ran around the bridge, for some reason). This also wasn't the first time he'd been shut down and then gotten away, during the course of that round.

At this point, I decided enough was enough, and ended it. And, as far as I could see (unless I missed something, which is possible considering the amount of things I was focusing my attention on at the time), command agreed with my decision, albeit a little surprised.

Was it harsh? Perhaps. However, I do not believe it was against the laws of the AI, nor was it without reason. Had this been, say, crewsimov or NT default (as a few examples), you might have a point.

And while we're at it...

2 hours ago, Keluandrie said:

went entirely silent on the matter.

I stopped talking because I had better things to attend to, and didn't feel like wasting time attempting to explain something to someone who would not listen. Things such as ending the current rev round, which had gone on for longer than an hour and a half (most revolutionary rounds barely last the hour mark), and was slowing down to a crawl.

It was always my impression that revolutionaries were not permitted to bomb the station, as the goal was to take over the station, not destroy it. That is something I was erroneous about after discussion with Dumbdumn on the matter, and I apologize.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Spacemanspark
possible, not likely lmao

[Spacemanspark]

I fail to see how that was abrasive, and that was not the intention. But... moving on.

When the command staff are in danger from pretty much every side and it had been proven that the area they were in was quite clearly not safe (the bridge had already been breached and assaulted at least once prior in the round) and a murderer/ attempted murderer is running loose (especially when someone could have easily hacked in and grabbed him [which, again, had already happened earlier in the round, although with different people]), lethal measure can be taken to deal with those that attack them, especially in a situation such as revolutionaries.

These were also unusual circumstances where he wasn't able to be transferred to the brig easily for 'proper' processing (if such a thing was even possible at that point). As Vangar noted, they really were outnumbered and outmatched. Every minute I had spent (that wasn't tabbed out attending to something else completely unrelated to the game) during that round was used in stopping the revolutionaries. I'd stop one, three more would spring up, and the cycle would continue.

And, if we want to get technical, we can also take the fact that AI laws override each other by the smallest number law first. Law one takes priority over law two, law two over three, and so on. In this case, law two (protect the innocent) has a higher priority than law three (uphold the law). The command staff are the innocent ones in this case, and Kraven attempted to murder them. Repeatedly. As the innocent were unable to handle/ detain him without my outside assistance in the first place, and were not capable of defending themselves, when I spotted the situation in the bridge, I stepped in to protect them again. Law one doesn't really have any meaning here, as he isn't under the 'public trust' at this point. We also didn't have any idea on what type of revolutionary he was, as Vangar also mentioned.

...I should also mention that this is becoming less and less of an admin complaint and more so of a player complaint. Although it does present a very interesting thought regarding AI laws.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Spacemanspark
Yay incomplete thoughts

[Tayswift]

1 minute ago, Spacemanspark said:

In this case, law two (protect the innocent) has a higher priority than law three (uphold the law).

I think the issue being brought up here is that you didn't have to field execute him. You could've just door crushed to crit, or let somebody grab him after the first door crush. Then you'd be following both laws 2 and 3. But obviously in the heat of the moment it's a little hard to think about all the ramifications of AI laws...saying Spark likes to abuse people from this incident seems a little excessive.

[tigercat2000]

As a reminder: Do not post on admin complaints with your personal opinions or what have you- unless you were involved in the event and have something new to add, you shouldn't be posting here at all.

[Fethas]

UNLESS you have relevant info or observations on this complaint being issued PLEASE do not post in this thread. Please and thank you. Leave the Judgements for headmins. This is for fact and information gathering. NOT everyone judging the admin.

 

Edit:Tiget beat me

Edited November 27, 2017 by Fethas

[Vangar200]

as space law does state

Lethal force is not authorized unless there is a clear and present danger to the integrity of the station and crew at large (such as large amounts of Shadowling Thralls, or actively hostile cultists leading hostile incursions). Otherwise, they are to be detained etc...

 

So I do not see a major problem. I see the AI upholding the law. If the command staff all started shooting and trying to get him, it would of been a mess of us hitting each other. We were trying to grab him, but then he almost escaped. The AI was following their laws, but you do need to realize that just because you could of NOT died, doesn't mean it didn't make sense for it to happen.

 

[bigfatbananacyclops]

Hi, i witnessed the whole thing that happened between Spark and Trexter.

So here's what i saw during the round. First up

Space Law states that lethal force is when someone is Uncontainable, like Hulk, Meth, Adrenals.

Of if they're armed, and or if there's multiple hostiles.

or extreme self defense

Quote

When the command staff are in danger from pretty much every side and it had been proven that the area they were in was quite clearly not safe (the bridge had already been breached and assaulted at least once prior in the round) and a murderer/ attempted murderer is running loose (especially when someone could have easily hacked in and grabbed him [which, again, had already happened earlier in the round, although with different people]), lethal measure can be taken to deal with those that attack them, especially in a situation such as revolutionaries.

I was a revolutionary and a clown, i clearly remember that most of us haven't attempted to breach the bridge at all, we we're pretty much fighting security meanwhile where the fight mostly happened in maints. Ide Taro the leader did send me and Jillian to kill the HOS and CMO, i broke into security and looked for the HOS, and there is where i ended up dying because security started beating me up in anger when i was already cuffed and they took my helmet off when they had mindshield implants, jillian tempted to save me in processing and thats where we both got screwed.

But this happened like on the beginning of the shift, we were caught and destroyed way before of what happened to trexter.

I was dead when i watched what happened.

I do recall most of the revolutionaries weren't doing anything and minding their own business.

And Ide Taro the leader was killed by their own Revolutionary, which im pretty sure, probably got handled by admins.

The other leader wasnt doing much at all, who was the coroner

And Arsenic got screwed trying to spread the revolution stealthly, but it went slow, but most he converted didnt seem to do much.

The bridge seemed pretty okay, the only head that died was the HOS because he was in battle fighting the revs, and not in the bridge, rather out in the field.

Trexter was alone there and cuffed, you guys had mindshields, yet you still didnt bother mindshielding a crewmember, because that can also help get more people on your side. asides from him being robust

And just killed him for a unknown reason.

I am pretty sure that the revolutionaries that were trying to do anything were me, Jillian and Kraven.

Im also pretty sure command wouldve been already noticing how the revolution is getting screwed. because any revolution will include flashspam and a huge attack on the bridge with heads already dying.

Quote

These were also unusual circumstances where he wasn't able to be transferred to the brig easily for 'proper' processing (if such a thing was even possible at that point). As Vangar noted, they really were outnumbered and outmatched. Every minute I had spent (that wasn't tabbed out attending to something else completely unrelated to the game) during that round was used in stopping the revolutionaries. I'd stop one, three more would spring up, and the cycle would continue.

There weren't many revolutionaries doing anything im pretty sure most of security squad got destroyed by two people (Me and Jillian Small) because i do recall we slipped and took their gear. and Kraven Lockharte too who did kill the HOS in dorms.

Infact i did spare Vince Piper(sec pilot) and he suicided anyways.

And some of the officer did get healed and patched up, like Ariel Addison, the HOS was saved and revived too.

Just because your laws says you can do it, doesn't mean you gotta do it.

I also don't know if lethal force was ever authorised.

Edited November 28, 2017 by bigfatbananacyclops

[Cactus2388]

Hi, spectated the ordeal and am a Security main, I may be stepping over the line posting this here but i'd like to shine some light. As a normal security officer I would have simply been bwoinked. Murdering someone who was handcuffed and trapped in a 1x3 room when having completely non-lethal options on standby (bolting or electrifying) would have gotten me job banned. It's like harmbatoning someone who is already cuffed in the brig, you could have simply gotten a borg/security officer to obtain him. As this admin complaint was made you certainly didn't: Serve the public trust, Protect the Innocent (Mindslaved crew), or Uphold the law (Murdering someone who only needed to be dragged).

[Spacemanspark]

After a bit of thinking and discussion with a few others, I came to the conclusion that I did act rather harshly in my actions. While my intents were to speed up the round, I acted hastily and got ahead of myself.

I offer my apologies to Trexter regarding the incident.

[trexter555]

Sorry for the late reply, I was on vacation and having issues getting on the forums. All good, thanks Spark, I appreciate it.

[LightFire53]

Marking this as resolved.