Remove Xenos: A rant and suggestion.

[FPK]

 

Yes, this is in retaliation for the previous xeno round. Yes, I am salty. But I feel as though I'm justified in my salt. Xenos are horribly unfun to play against, even with the buffs made to counter a few of the xeno's one-hit-kills. Xenos wreck ERTs. Shitty xenos have a pretty good chance of winning against even mechs. Xenos, with one click, can end a round for you. Xenos have several attacks which work as insta-stuns that last a decent chunk of time. The counters for xenos are limited, both in supply and what they can counter. The only way to win against Xenos is though sheer amount of mechs, or sheer amount of luck by catching the xenos early. Fighting against xenos is a loosing battle.

 

Now, I've played a lot of games where loosing is fun. I'm a DF vet, I play a decent amount of security, rogue-likes and dungeon-crawlers are in my blood. But loosing to xenos? It's the most unfun experience I have with ss13. If you enjoy xenos, your level of masochism surpasses mine by an unreal factor. I get that ss13 should be a dangerous place in space, where you should expect to die. But with xenos, I expect to die 100%. That's not surviving the madness of ss13, that's a suicide mission.

 

[necaladun]

 

I have to agree here that losing against xenos isn't fun. The single click nature of the leap and stun just make it unfun and frustrating. For most of the crew, there's no defence against it, and it's generally no fault of your own. I do agree 1v1 fights against a xeno should be suicide, but not such a...quick an unsatisfying suicide.

 

Apart from nerfing of leap, I think the biggest change that could be made is to make it so monkeys can't be infected. I can't remember seeing a xeno nest not in viro for quite awhile.

 

Otoh, I wouldn't be against removing xenos, because quite frankly, there's a server that does xenos better than us.

 

[Sothangel]

Remove the leap and the insane sprinting speed they (hunters?) have and that'll help balance things a little.

[Coldflame]

 

xenos have needed balance updates for years and not gotten any, so yeah, I agree

 

fuck 'em

 

[necaladun]

I do think removing their ability to infect monkeys would really stop the snowball effect. Forcing them to take out a player for every xeno they need to add rather than being able to start with ~6 xenos secretly would hugely stop them swamping the station.

[Shadeykins]

 

Just remove monkeys.

 

But even with monkeys honestly with even the barest amount of tact and coordination, xenos can be beaten very easily.

 

Doing a "helmet rollout" (which is seldom done, in fact I'm the only one who's ever done it to date to my knowledge) and passing out the riot/bulletproof/sec helms to every crewmember basically negates xenos altogether unless they pin someone down for a sufficient period of time to also strip them (which most xenos don't do). It disables casual facehuggers entirely, in arguably the biggest source of infection for xenos.

 

You can also weld vents, and accessways to funnel them.

 

You can break pipes, and set traps with emitters. (Break a pipe in a long hallway that you cordon off, and have an emitter fire downrange. Xenos will pop up, be stuck in the hall, and get murdered by the emitter).

 

You can electrify window grilles, very easily - literally anyone with tools and gloves can do this. Electrified grilles are incredibly effective against xenomorphs (it kills them in 2-4 shocks, which isn't even enough to break the grille down sometimes).

 

And as an ERT, you have no excuse to lose to xenos unless the problem is absolutely massive - you have guns that shoot through windows, and xenos can't. RCD some maintenance access glass airlocks and tactically advance.

 

Xeno stuns (while definitely incredibly strong) are negated by traveling in threes.

 

The problem with xenomorphs is they require coordination and tactics by the crew to defeat, two things which are scarcely utilized. This is also the reason that blobs win a lot of the time.

 

[necaladun]

 

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/5592

 

It begins.

 

[jedr]

 

I agree with shadey that if the crew would think things through before mounting their assault on the nest, xeno's would have a much harder time.

 

then again, it'll be cold day in hell before people work together consistently in this game...

 

A nerf to vironests is in order though, I've advocated that before.

 

[FoS]

 

I don't think the answer is to just remove everything that 'feels' broken. So many round types and events getting removed just means that things are going to get stale faster because you're pulling from a smaller pool of things that can happen to make a round interesting.

 

I agree with Shadey. Most of the issues that I've seen with xenos "overwhelming" the crew has been because the crew didn't deal with the threat seriously. The crew doesn't seem to like to work together and I've run into more and more command staff lately that refuses to arm the crew for xenos or blobs (aka "omg ur a civ no lasers 4 u"). There's also the really obvious problem of people rushing a nest alone with no face protection or gear that is suited to fighting xenos.

 

Considering how late in the round xenos potentially happen, the crew should already have a fair amount of things to deal with the threat. If security/medical/random people have somehow not noticed xenos in the turbine/virology/electrical maintenance then who's fault is that? If the crew doesn't weld the vents and merely continue about their shift that isn't exactly the xenos fault.

 

At the end of the day. I'd rather see improvements made to something that makes it more enjoyable instead of things outright removed and probably never re-implemented or this will go the same direction as the actual Xeno round type. =/

 

[FPK]

 

quick, unformatted post. Ive read your responses, come up with ideas for fixes.

 

cooldown on xeno disarm stun, just enough to allow someone getting dragged by a xeno a fraction of a second to move away. Removing stunlocking would make it a much fairer fight.

 

fixed time for facefuckers to burst you. why it's random I'll never understand.

 

either reduce stun time for acid spit or increase cost.

 

allow xenos to be stunned, if only for a fraction of a second. Just enough to drop any facefuckers a xeno is holding and give the shooter time to escape. would not work for aggression, as stun would not last long enough at all.

 

make healing cost plasma, or have damage reduce xenos movespeed.

 

make xeno weeds more important in xeno effectiveness. while off weeds, only hunters eho should be aggressive are not impaired. all other xenos suffer some greater penalty

 

[Dinarzad]

 

Xenos aren't actually that bad.

They just suffer fro mthe same problem Swarmers have.

 

The "It's not important until it effects me" syndrome, where the majority of the crew doesn't give a single flying fuck until said Swarmer/Xeno is negatively effecting them, an then they're raring to go weld every vent and assault the nest. Like.... 15 minutes after the fact, when they've already spread an grown into a much more annoying infestation.

 

Nerfing the disarm spam, sure.

Nerfing the monkey infection and you may as well rip them out of the code altogether, cuz good fucking luck infecting anyone (Especially with the disarm nerfs) and not I-FUCKING-MMEDIATELY getting called the fuck out over the radio and having all the players who actually know how to respond/work together, swarm in to kill the lone queen and her singular Hunter.

Which is the ideal case, because half the time the Xenos fuck up communication and end up with a Queen and a drone.

 

Like seriously, this thread is a salt mine.

 

[Coldflame]

 

remove xeno tasers, replace them with either a stamina damage spit or something else entirely

 

resin walls are significantly easier to break, are more costly/timeconsuming to construct, or somewhere in the middle

 

increased incubation time upped to 2-3 times current to make huggers less of a deathsentence

 

dead people don't burst, punish people who abuse via suicide or just remove the suicide verb

 

shields provide semiconsistent protection from disarms

 

[Dinarzad]

 

remove xeno tasers, replace them with either a stamina damage spit or something else entirely

 

The Spit should probably be a blind, tbh. Think Jurassic Park.

The person can still move/shoot, but it'd be significantly harder for them to move around, or at least would highly discourage most people from still going after the Xenos.

Given spit is mostly the purview of Sentinels and Queens (Guarding the Hive)

They mostly want just that, to force people out, not to murderfuck them, that's the role of the Hunter.

 

[Shadeykins]

The only serious nerf I could suggest to xenos here (aside from maybe looking at monkeys) is as Coldflame suggested, remove chestbursters bursting from dead bodies.

[FPK]

Could you explain why you think that's the only serious nerf you want? Refute the other suggestions/explain your reasoning.

[liran424]

Why don't we just port what they did in Colonel Marines and change a few things.

[Shadeykins]

 

Could you explain why you think that's the only serious nerf you want? Refute the other suggestions/explain your reasoning.

 

Just remove monkeys.

 

But even with monkeys honestly with even the barest amount of tact and coordination, xenos can be beaten very easily.

 

Doing a "helmet rollout" (which is seldom done, in fact I'm the only one who's ever done it to date to my knowledge) and passing out the riot/bulletproof/sec helms to every crewmember basically negates xenos altogether unless they pin someone down for a sufficient period of time to also strip them (which most xenos don't do). It disables casual facehuggers entirely, in arguably the biggest source of infection for xenos.

 

You can also weld vents, and accessways to funnel them.

 

You can break pipes, and set traps with emitters. (Break a pipe in a long hallway that you cordon off, and have an emitter fire downrange. Xenos will pop up, be stuck in the hall, and get murdered by the emitter).

 

You can electrify window grilles, very easily - literally anyone with tools and gloves can do this. Electrified grilles are incredibly effective against xenomorphs (it kills them in 2-4 shocks, which isn't even enough to break the grille down sometimes).

 

And as an ERT, you have no excuse to lose to xenos unless the problem is absolutely massive - you have guns that shoot through windows, and xenos can't. RCD some maintenance access glass airlocks and tactically advance.

 

Xeno stuns (while definitely incredibly strong) are negated by traveling in threes.

 

The problem with xenomorphs is they require coordination and tactics by the crew to defeat, two things which are scarcely utilized. This is also the reason that blobs win a lot of the time.

 

Already did.

 

[SomanB]

**

Edited November 22, 2016 by Guest

[FPK]

 

I won't lie, that felt a little demeaning.

 

Doing a "helmet rollout" (which is seldom done, in fact I'm the only one who's ever done it to date to my knowledge) and passing out the riot/bulletproof/sec helms to every crewmember basically negates xenos altogether unless they pin someone down for a sufficient period of time to also strip them (which most xenos don't do). It disables casual facehuggers entirely, in arguably the biggest source of infection for xenos.

While helmets do give maginal protection, it's laughably easy to pounce/disarm-stun/acid spit anyone with a helmet, drag them away to somewhere safe, then either kill them or take their helmet off. While killing them does effectively mean one less body to infect, there are plenty of crewmembers without helmets who make easier targets for infection. And yes, cargo can order more helmets for the crew. I don't know why they don't, but it might have something to do with the fact that the wiki page for Xenos does not explicitly mention helmets can help. Also, from my understanding, only riot helmets block facefuckers. I could be wrong though.

 

You can also weld vents, and accessways to funnel them.

Xenos can spacewalk and bust through walls and airlocks in a fairly short amount of time. Welding vents does limit some Xeno movement, but if a Xeno wants to get into a room, they will find a way.

 

You can break pipes, and set traps with emitters. (Break a pipe in a long hallway that you cordon off, and have an emitter fire downrange. Xenos will pop up, be stuck in the hall, and get murdered by the emitter).

I have never seen anyone ever try this before, ever. I don't know any xeno that'd be dumb enough to ever fall for this either. If you really think you're going to catch a xeno with a trap like this, there must be easily enough xenos that alternative routes can be carved out.

 

You can electrify window grilles, very easily - literally anyone with tools and gloves can do this. Electrified grilles are incredibly effective against xenomorphs (it kills them in 2-4 shocks, which isn't even enough to break the grille down sometimes).

This does sound like good area denial, but again, Xenos will find a way around anything. Also, what is acid spit.

 

And as an ERT, you have no excuse to lose to xenos unless the problem is absolutely massive - you have guns that shoot through windows, and xenos can't. RCD some maintenance access glass airlocks and tactically advance.

This implies ERT works together and isn't incompetent, like how it is half of the time. ERT is a mash of random dead players, including a plethora of people who have never played ERT and have no idea what teamwork is. Not to mention, the ERT needs to get an RCD first, then have a steady supply of ammo so they can sweep through the entire station. Xenos can just bust through the hallway walls, or build resin walls to block the ERT's advance.

 

Xeno stuns (while definitely incredibly strong) are negated by traveling in threes.

I see, so you can have two people watch you get dragged away instead of one. This implies that you're going against a single Xeno, and your two buddies with guns that don't need to recharge and helmets can blast the xeno before it zooms away with your stunned body. If this were the ERT, I'd believe it. Most of the crew is not ERT.

 

The problem with xenomorphs is they require coordination and tactics by the crew to defeat, two things which are scarcely utilized. This is also the reason that blobs win a lot of the time.

I do agree with this. I don't know why people just think so nonchalantly of Xenos. If the entire crew went full metagame, raided cargo and the armory, and stuck together in groups of five with an array of laser guns, like how absolutely nobody ever does, then yes they'd win.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

Any face-covering helmet should suffice, upto and including EVA helmets. Most xenos don't seem to realize helmets negate infection, and if the xeno is at all delayed (which they often are) you've got a get out of jail free card. Not only do you get to run away, but you get to run away uninfected (plenty of xenos will let infected people wander off because the surgery is seldom performed in time).

 

Xenos can't spacewalk to interior sections and hunters (the largest threat) can't acid spit doors.

 

I've used the emitter tactic to great success personally. It's irrelevant if the xeno is 'dumb' enough to fall for it, you hide the broken pipe under a tile so the xeno isn't even aware there's a trap there to begin with. You also utilize a hallway long enough so that the emitter is clearly out of sight. Surgery maint is a favourite of mine for performing this since it's close to engineering and the pipes there are heavily utilized (since it's where distro connects). Block off the exits with a few airlocks (you can stack airlocks with an RCD or by opening the airlock and construction another in it's place, slowing down/negating acid spit to some extent) and ID lock two emitters at the end of the hall. Bust the pipes, and throw down tiles.

 

Acid spit is limited - again, and most xenos won't realize a grille that isn't normally electrified is. Shocked grilles also stun xenos, which give you a great opportunity to laser them down or even utilize melee.

 

Engineering ERT members start with a fully loaded RCD, meaning they can make ten shoot-throughable airlocks (more than enough). With that said, yes, ERT's are typically clusterfucks.

 

For long hallways yes, your friend can be dragged off - which is generally why you should fortify those first in these sorts of emergencies. Still, even two guys with circular saws go a long way in saving your ass.

 

As for your last statement, it's far from meta to prepare for a threat you actively know about - meta is preparing for a threat you know about OOCly but have no IC compunction to prepare for.

 

Two people with an RCD (even one!) setting carefully positioned airlocks down main corridors can be a huge help against xenos by limiting their mobility and snowballing. Sadly, as you yourself mentioned people seldom take initiative and I've even seen captains enable emergency maint access or people emergency access the medbay doors (which gives xenos access to maint doors and medbay doors. Yikes).

 

[Dinarzad]

 

This implies ERT works together and isn't incompetent, like how it is half of the time. ERT is a mash of random dead players, including a plethora of people who have never played ERT and have no idea what teamwork is. Not to mention, the ERT needs to get an RCD first, then have a steady supply of ammo so they can sweep through the entire station. Xenos can just bust through the hallway walls, or build resin walls to block the ERT's advance.

 

The problem here is, that's not a valid reason to nerf something.

That's not Xenos being OP, that's people/ERT being stupid. Don't blame the xenos for crew incompetance.

 

 

I see, so you can have two people watch you get dragged away instead of one. This implies that you're going against a single Xeno, and your two buddies with guns that don't need to recharge and helmets can blast the xeno before it zooms away with your stunned body. If this were the ERT, I'd believe it. Most of the crew is not ERT.

 

And the problem here is, again, Not the fault of something being OP but again, user error.

If you're in a group of three, and outnumbered or equally numbered, you should not have engaged. This isn't any different then 2-3 crew trying to take one 2-3 changelings grouped together. The antag is specifically designed to isolate and pick at stragglers. Them being good at that is NOT overpowered, that's them being good at the thing they're SUPPOSED to be good at.

 

And if your guns need recharging an you are anywhere NEAR the area infested by xenos... well I mean how is it the xenomorph's fault you chose a really poor path to go recharge your gun? Unless an infestation has gotten so huge it has taken a whole department, xenos can't travel THAT far for hosts, because they can't ventcrawl with you unless they eat you, and eating you kills you fairly fast, so a long distance crawl will just end in them dying.

 

Again: Xenos are NOT that bad, the problem is crew apathy and uncooperativity. People rushing off alone into the tunnels to hunt them or ignore the problem altogether. The Insta-stun spam should be nerfed, pretty much everyone has said that, but beyond that and it's just making the antagonist too weak to do anything, all because some people are salty they got killed in the tailing 20 minutes of a video game all about dying/lethal scenarios in a space station.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

The problem here is, that's not a valid reason to nerf something.

That's not Xenos being OP, that's people/ERT being stupid. Don't blame the xenos for crew incompetance.

 

 

Very much this. Xenos have TERRIBLE win rate whenever you look at round that the crew doesn't run headfirst into the nest. They win when people forget to work together.

 

The only thing that is a problem is their infinite stuns and leap, and one of those is being addressed.

 

[scrubmcnoob]

 

I think the current nerf on the github is pretty fair.

It only makes it so Xenos can't one click crew members with shields and instant win

If they have a shield, oh well, looks like you will now have to have a drawn out fight with them and try to out robust them with melee/spit.

I find that more interesting than one clicking.

 

[FPK]

I'll take what I can get, I guess.