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Posts posted by Kyet
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Will you add controllable facehuggers or we aren't allowed to speak of it?
Given https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/4014 it is very unlikely.
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Remember: your feedback is being used to help craft this mission. So, speak up.
Loot and good RP scenarios make a gateway mission. Make them not generic.The loot in this mission is designed so that there should be something for everyone:
- For Medical, there's an odysseus mech. It isn't easy to get, and isn't armed. You can get it, though, if you get far enough.
- For Science, there are 'research notes' that can be used in R&D to get some tech levels. Consoles can also be deconstructed, for boards.
This is not a final loot list. I'm probably going to tweak this list a fair bit.
Every single item on this list will require fighting monsters (and risking death) to get.
I am aiming to balance it such that if you do this mission as a group, the odds are high that you will get *something* you find neat and/or useful, no matter what job you are playing as.
As for RP scenarios, there are also a few things placed specifically to encourage RP:
- The first room has a note explaining that the facility is sealed, and contains deadly spiders. You have to hack a door to proceed. This is designed to make lone explorers, newbies, and people who don't equip themselves properly second-guess their decision to enter. To set a bar, and say "hey, this content is hard. It is OK if you don't want to do it." Also, as a practical matter, to reduce the number of "omg this is too hard!" complaints, because you have to actively try to get into this mission.
- The next few rooms contain dead bodies wrapped in webbing, and scripted encounters. They're designed to freak out the away team a bit, and provide opportunities for 'uh oh, what have we got ourselves into' sort of RP. They're also designed to kill off zergers - if you run forward blindly, you will probably die.
Spawning at gateway is nice sometimes, but not always.In future, I would quite like to make a different gateway mission which is pretty much certain death unless you enter it with tools, armor, AND a good weapon.
Right now, though, I am forcing people to spawn at the gateway simply so that they have a reasonable chance of staying alive.
This mission is hard enough already - I usually die multiple times every time I playtest it, even though I'm wielding 3 AEGs and have good knowledge of what I'm up against.
At one point, it took me over 5 attempts to reach and beat the first boss.
This mission won't be dull. It will be hard. You will be fighting for your life often.
Bringing a medic is a very good idea.
I like to do a gateway mission when i feel like adventuring.If there are fightable mobs, there also should be weapons IN the gateway to fight em. Security rarely trust anyone with a gun.
it's so rare you will ever get a gun from sec going into the gatewayThis mission has many mobs, and they're all fairly deadly. Some of them are extremely deadly.
Right now, the mission has "wireless AEGs" (a new type of gun, I just made it up yesterday) prespawned right next to the starting room.
They're like normal AEGs, except that they only work in the away mission map, and can't overload/break.
Originally I gave people eguns at the start. Those did not last long - they required recharging too frequently, and messed up my plans to depower some parts of the outpost. Having to retreat to recharge your weapons may be tactically realistic, but it just wasn't fun.
Then I gave people AEGs at the start. This worked, but I was concerned people might walk into the mission, loot the AEG at the start, then just take the AEGs back to the station and cause chaos without ever attempting the mission proper. I felt that was not balanced, and encouraged explorers to self-antag, so I changed it.
With the current wireless AEGs, you can't do that. They're only useful in the away mission itself. If you take them back to the main station, they stop working. So, you get lethal weapons almost right away, and you're armed enough to take on the mission, but you can't use those weapons to wreck the main station. If you want real guns that are useful on the main station too, you have to earn them by taking on monsters.
I mainly do it for the RP and a bit of fighting/loot it's always fun to go in with a team of friends and just explore and learn the history (unless it's that boring plasma research facility on the asteroid)So far I have 5 paper-supported 'stories' in the mission. I'd like to add more, but I really need to make sure they all tie together coherently before I do that.
Here's one example:
One former resident of this outpost was a scientist, who got attacked by the terror queen, resulting in hallucinations and paranoia.
He was prescribed anti-hallucinogens for it by the outpost doctor. You can find his prescription, and his pills, in his quarters.
The story illustrates the atmosphere of the outpost leading up to the terrors breaching containment, and tells you something about the queen and her abilities.
You can actually take his pills too, and use them yourself. They're helpful in countering the hallucination/fear attacks the queen uses.
This story also contains a hint to the location of another story, one you probably wouldn't find unless you read the notes.
Most of the stories I'm placing in this mission are like this.
They're not just fluff-text/RP, they have actual gameplay impacts.
Reading them closely gives you hints to the location/abilities of enemies, the location of loot, etc.
Ideally... I'd like to have some of their contents be generated with hints to the locations of randomly-spawned items, so they adapt to the level's RNG.
Oh, and the map is based on 'that plasma research facility'. Don't worry though, its not boring like that map is. It has been changed, and all the plasma removed.
Right now, the spiders in this awaymission are not player-controllable. I've been debating changing this, at least for some classes.
The idea is that an away mission could potentially encounter a sentient spider that hides in the vents and whispers evil things to them as its kind try to mow them down.
There would be some pretty severe limits on this, but having a ventcrawling antagonist stalking the explorer team could make for some great RP, I think. Potentially.
If I do that, though, I have to figure out how to balance it so that the sentient spider doesn't just horrifically murder the away team the first chance it gets.
Maybe I could make two or three of them, but have them be pretty weak. So, they're designated RP antagonists that any ghost can jump into - whilst still being easy to laser to death if they show themselves.
I enjoy reconstructing and rebuilding previously existing structures to create a functional area.I would like to make some areas of the away mission dark/unpowered, and enable you to bring power back online in these areas.
This would actually help you as it would let you see spiders further away, and powered doors would be much harder for the spiders to pry open (yes, that's a thing some of them do).
I haven't managed to get the power system working the way I want yet, though.
Absolutely adore the two station maps, least enjoy the asteroid map, beach map is also fun now.
Cool, I think this map is based on one of the station maps you mentioned.
I enjoy the station maps mostly because I don't actually have to fight anything serious.
This probably won't be the map for you, then. There is a LOT of fighting in this mission.
The more random the better!
The mob locations/types are already random.
I am working on a way to better randomize the locations of loot.
I also have ideas for how I could better randomize the actual design of the level, but I haven't scripted/tested this yet.
- First idea: 50/50 doors: pairs of blast doors in the level, and on map load, one of each pair is closed. The map would be structured so this doesn't actually make any areas completely inaccessible no matter what - but it does force you to change up the routes you use through the level depending on which doors are opened and which aren't.
- Second idea: gamma-style area replacement: store alternate versions of certain rooms/areas in a corner of the map, and, randomly on map load, swap out some of the rooms for their alternate versions.
Of these:
- #1 forces you to take different routes, but I'm not sure that's fun unless it forces you to explore areas you might not have seen otherwise, like maint shafts.
- #2 provides the feeling of a random map, but it could also be confusing.
Dangerous enough to kill a thing but not dangerous enough to one shot said thing, also the thing would need to have a large counter, that or we could put in a few random xenoarch style artifacts, that is, if we ever get artifacts again..
This is pretty close to how the mission is coded now.
Most of the loot items in the mission are not weapons. They're generally-useful items for various departments.
The weapons that do exist are specifically tuned to be used against the spiders. Powerful enough to kill them but it usually takes at least 7 hits to do so. During that time - you have to avoid their attacks.
What is your main reason for exploring the gateway? Are you after specific items? Monster kills? A safe place to do antag stuff? A sense of adventure? Horror? Simply want to see what is there?
I like the sense of adventure from exploring dark spooky places so I guess adventure + horror. I also like the ones with the logs scattered everywhere because of the cool lore.
I think the map has "adventure" covered.
"Horror", I'm working on - I really want to make it darker and more terror-inducing. I need to fix the lighting in the map (currently everything is always 100% lit) to do that, though.
"Logs" I have a few of already, but I am looking to add more.
What are your most and least favorite features of the existing gateway maps?
My favorite features are the old, abandoned and forgotten shitholes in the middle of nowhere and the dark expansive caves of a few of the maps. My least favorite features of the maps is the damn beach, as I don't quite recall it having anything explorable.
Sounds like this map will suit you. It is an abandoned, forgotten place with horrifying things you have to fight. It has a cave system, too, with a unique boss-level enemy to fight there.
If there's anything in particular you like to see in caves, let me know. Currently the caves are expansive but bland - I want to fill them in a bit.
Do you enjoy fighting dangerous monsters in gateway missions? If so, how dangerous?
I like fighting monsters if they don't need an entire fucking armory to kill. Stuff that can be killed as long as you're agile and quick with a nice blunt thing.
The spiders in this mission are very dangerous. VERY dangerous. There's a reason you get self-recharging laserguns in this mission. They're a necessity, not a luxury.
That said, the combat is heavily, heavily skewed towards ranged, agile, hit and run style combat. To the point that melee combat against this mission's mobs is not a viable strategy without special gear (e.g: riot suit+riot shield) or being a borg/mech.
If you enjoy dashing around, shooting and moving, kiting things, etc, this mission has a lot of that style of combat.
Do you like the idea of a gateway mission which randomizes important elements? E.g: randomizes your spawn location, monster spawn locations, environmental hazards, etc.
YES, I feel that we need more of this kinda thing so you don't end up playing the same quiet little map every time. Adding random elements would give more of a reason to use the gateway since you'll have a different experience every time.
Working on it. I've been testing some of the existing random loot drop/etc options in Dream Maker. They left me unsatisfied.
I think I am going to have to make some new stuff to better randomize things.
How much do you think events on an away mission should be able to influence life on the Cyberiad? For example, do you believe gateway teams should be able to recover valuable/useful items? Would you be OK with a gateway team being able to bring dangerous things back with them? How dangerous?
As long as it's not ultra-bad or ultra-good. I do like the idea of a gateway dude bringing back some old ass disease from the gateway or a facehugger embryo or similar and I do think you should be able to get minor artifacts that do things such as play a recording or maybe even really old models of weaponry and nice traditional weapons.
IIRC, facehugger embryos used to exist in some away missions, but were deleted specifically because certain people kept bringing them back to the main station and starting xeno outbreaks with them.
I'm hesitant to have anything similar in this mission for the same reason. If I do add it, then it will be restricted - you won't just be able to zerg your way over there, get infected, and run back to ensure an infection spreads to the main station. Infections should be rare, and difficult to spread deliberately.
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Thank you
Remember everyone, please answer the questions in teal. All feedback helps!
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Part 1: Remove the Labor Camp
Awhile ago, I went on a mapping/coding project to fix the labor camp.
I came to the conclusion it was fundamentally unfixable.
Yes, removing it and replacing it with something new is a good idea.
As much as I would love alternate forms of punishment that aren't "go sit in a corner for X minutes", I have to say I dislike the Labor Camp immensely, and would like to see it removed. Here are my reasons as to why:
Agreed - it is more fun for everyone when prisoners have something useful they can do.
It's not safe: Any prisoner that happens to be space proof (like Vox or Plasmamen) can quite easily escape within 2 minutes without constant supervision. Anyone else can get internals, break in, leave some way for people to escape, and Security will have nearly no way to find the prisoner in any reasonable amount of time. In addition, it's not safe for the abiding prisoners, either. Goliath, much?
The big safety issue is that mining as a prisoner will quickly expose you to depressurized areas and deadly monsters you have no defense against. It is fundamentally broken for that reason alone.
When I was trying to fix the system, before I abandoned the idea, I realized that you'd have to make a completely separate prison mining asteroid (with no random cave gen algorithm!) to make prison mining remotely viable. Creating an entirely new z-level and prison outpost for prison mining would be a LOT of work, almost as much as creating an entirely new system, and while it might fix this one problem, it would not fix any of the others. This was one of the big things that made me decide the current labor mining system is unfixable and should be replaced.
It requires constant babysitting: Mostly due to the above two points, and even moreso than regular Brig Cells. You need to have an Officer constantly on watch to make sure no funny business is going on, which more often than not would deprive the station of much needed manpower.
This is actually a solvable problem, but it isn't easy. Making it much harder to escape, much harder to cause a mess in, but easier for prisoners to get in/get out without smuggling contraband. It can be done, but it is complicated and would require much remapping/coding work.
It doesn't even work: Prisoner IDs can just send the shuttle back to the station without having collected any points. This defeats the entire purpose of forcing people to mine for points, as they can essentially just throw a tantrum and force you to brig them normally.
Correct. We can't just have an auto-release system either, or they can steal the stuff they got from the outpost. You need to have a sec officer search them before letting them out, or an automated system to throw them out almost-naked, but let them get their stuff. You need to worry about how the ore they mine gets moved to the rest of the station. There are several complications which make it way, way too much hassle to be worth it.
When it does, it doesn't for long: Due to the fact that it has no available Internals or EVA equipment, the Labor Camp can be used for as long as it takes someone to mine out the immediate area. What I mean is, so long as you don't breach into space, or any other cavern on the asteroid, you won't need internals. But the moment you do, you can kiss the labor camp goodbye, because that thing is going to sloooowly depressurize all the way to the main camp. Depending on RNG, this can effectively corral the prisoners to a very small area of operations. Not to mention, most of the available ores are Iron, which is hell for high-point sentences.
All of this is true.
It's a bloody, needless hassle: At the end of the day, considering everything I just said, the prisoner would actually be far better sitting it out than going through the whole darned Labor Camp process, wasting far fewer resources and time.
This is also true.
Part 2: The Workshop
Or "How I learned to love slave labor".
For any of you that have played Prison Architect, you'll know what I'm talking about. For those that haven't, here's the gist of what I'm suggesting:
The Workshop itself would be located somewhere in the Prison Wing, most likely near the Permabrig. It would be a decently-sized room, perhaps with a couple of toilets thrown in for good measure (think Perma, only slightly smaller). This Workshop would have several Stamping Presses (see below), which can be used by the prisoners to stamp license plates, or circuit board molds, or whatever the heck, the item itself doesn't really matter. No tools would be provided, for obvious reasons.
Each Stamping Press would then rack up points depending on how much work was done. These points can then be collected in a Prisoner ID and, upon reaching the alloted quota, the Prisoner ID can be used on a machine by the door to open it and signal the Warden/Officers that someone has finished their work and can be released.
This sounds good thus far. I particularly like how it doesn't rely on them having any special clothes/gear/equipment, thus sidestepping all the annoying requirements of making sure they're outfitted before they start, taking the equipment back afterwards, etc. This reduces hassle greatly.
The items created could then be shipped off to Cargo, where they could be returned to Central Command for a small amount of points (think 1-2 points each, so as to not make it competitive with Plasma).
Problem: high point sentences will generate a LARGE number of items. It would be better if they just generated one item, a "stack" of plates which counted how many were in the stack and was worth an appropriate number of cargo points. That would make the product a single item to move, rather than a huge stack. AFAIK, BYOND does not handle huge stacks of items on the same tile very well.
This system would permit the prisoners to shorten their sentences through hard labor in a simple, easy way that does not require extensive babysitting and is not more at risk of a security breach than the rest of the Prison Wing. In addition, it would be far, far, far more convenient and usable for Security, as all they would have to do would be get a Prisoner ID, set the points, and drop the prisoner in the Workshop. In addition to that, it would let the prisoners actually have something to do other than sit in a cell, and hopefully keep them occupied. Hell, it lets them do something that actually benefits the rest of the crew as well, as penance!
Why not simplify it further? Why not remove prisoner IDs entirely?
Just have normal IDs be usable to accrue labor points. A console to let the prisoner out when they have enough could be very similar to the current labor camp console (but, it would have to actually work).
Doing it this way would completely eliminate the need for security to fiddle with prisoner IDs / swap IDs at all.
Part 3: The Stamping Press
I'm not a coder, and I think that's about to become super obvious in this last section.
I would propose, for the Stamping Press (image for reference), a UI similar to the claw machine. You initiate the action and, after doing so, a block of metal would appear on the bottom of the UI, and a moving Press on the top. This Press would move from the left to the right, and you would have to time it so it impacts the press in the right spot. If you fail to activate it, it simply keeps rolling and does nothing. If you miss the block of metal entirely, it also does nothing. If you stamp it properly, it generates a plate at the side of the machine, which would most likely have a crate, for ease of transportation.
That sounds pretty neat. Having an actual mini-game to it.
For the process itself, I would propose the following as well:
Green Zone: A good "hit" on the metal block, with the Press hitting most, if not all of it. Creates a "Good Plate" next to the machine, which is worth 15 Labor Points and 2 Supply Points;
Orange Zone: An average "hit" on the metal block, with the Press hitting little over half of it. Creates an "Average Plate" next to the machine, which is worth 10 Labor Points and 1 Supply Point;
Red Zone: A bad "hit" on the metal block, with the Press hitting a minimal part of it (the edges, mostly). Creates a "Worthless Plate" next to the machine, which is worth 5 Labor Points and 0 Supply Points
That also sounds pretty neat.
This way, the prisoners get to entertain themselves with a minigame, and are encouraged to do good work, in return for a faster release, in addition to generating goods that Cargo can use to get useful items for the rest of the station!
As always, feedback please!
There are two significant questions there:
- Can prisoners already given a timed sentence do this activity to lower the time? Or does this have to be their sentence, set at sentencing?
- To what extent should prisoners be allowed to choose, voluntarily, to participate in this system without security input? E.g: should a prisoner with a timed sentence be able to use this to collect points and ask sec for early release, or should the console they use be able to directly modify their cell timer? Should SOP require that security allow prisoners to reduce their timers via labor if they wish to?
Honestly, in all my time playing, I rarely see people get shipped off to the mining rock, probably because it is too much of a hassle, which makes it a waste of data. Why bother having it if 9 times out of 10 they'll never ship them there. Hell, they rarely even permabrig people, they just kill em off when they get a chance to so there is no risk of escaping.
Making a more secure permabrig, along with an activity to keep inmates busy, would probably mean more people would use the permabrig instead of lopping their head off or what have you.
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Oh, pardon me, I just realized it WASN'T connected to perma, just near it. Still, it would be nice if perma had more use in shifts.
Still so, it would do wonders for the prison system, rather than having to deal with people constantly banging on windows or trying to kill themselves because they got tossed in a cell. Idle hands are the devil's workshop, as they say.
This is all fairly accurate.
Sec don't use labor camp because: it doesn't work, its a hassle, its escapable.
Sec often prefer execution to perma because: perma is escapable, they might be overwhelmed and need truly permanent solutions, and frankly, being a ghost is more fun than being a perma prisoner.
I'm up for this, i love me some slave labor as the warden.Can i add some more work ideas?
Tiny Chem Lab
Add a little room with one chemistry dispenser and one of them pill makers so prisoners can make medicine for the medbay. But it should not be as advanced as the ones in chemistry so they cannot make explosives, but only has basic things to make basic medicine. I'm not the best with making medicine, so i wouldn't know what basic elements would be in these basic chem stations but i'm sure someone knows exactly how to make this safe. These chems can then be used to get points like tully suggested.
Prison Garden
Just add one or two hydroponic tables or however you call those things in botany along with a hand picked set of seeds, for example banana, apples and potatoes. Also add one seed reclaiming thing that gives you seeds when you insert a fruit/vegatable, so they can keep planting. And ofcourse a little watering can and a hoe.
These fruits can then be used to get points and get you out like tully suggested. This fruit can ofcourse be brought to the kitchen, or kept in security for the hungry officers.
I don't think the tiny chem lab is a good idea.
Reasons:
- Preventing prisoners from mixing dangerous chems would be very complicated. Even extremely simple mixes like potassium+water can be explosive, sacid+plasma+phosphorus can set everything nearby on fire, and ethanol+silver+oxygen+heat produces a lethal poison that can kill you with a single syringe, sometimes before you can even get to medbay. I've killed people with it before. You *could* eliminate most of these combinations by limiting the chems the dispenser can make... but that could be very complicated to do without gimping the ability to make healing chems.
- There are some things which are dangerous but you just can't eliminate. For example, sacid (aka: sulphuric acid). This is a requirement for syptic powder, the most basic brute medication - yet a beaker of sulphuric acid can be splashed on things to burn them. See https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradis ... s_toxin.dm - sacid/reaction_mob. It will burn your face, and you can't stop prisoners making it. It does some organ damage, too.
Prison garden is more viable - but it suffers one of the issues that the labor camp did. Lots of small items needing transport. Also, the slow growth of plants with the eventual payout suggests a system more suited to perma, than to short sentences.
I like the idea, but if we're gonna go full prison architect, we should go full prison architect and have some kind of set up for Janitor (Tracking collar and a mop that records how many messes it's cleaned up?), some kind of botanical garden for growing tower caps for wood and general produce for food. Not exactly sure how Laundry would work since most people walk around bloodstained or make use of showers to just cleanse themselves all at once, washing machines are only used now days to kill pets and assistants who get out of line.Janitor could be a good punishment job, but there are several issues:
- They can't be allowed to clean with water, or anything else that makes floors slippery. Space cleaner only. Annoyance potential too high otherwise.
- What's to stop them simply ignoring their punishment job forever? Do they have to complete it in a certain time? If so, what happens if they exceed their allowed time?
Yes... Labor collars that keep track of certain deeds. It would be like being demoted to an assistant.. Only, if you misbehave, you get shocked.Yeah, we could slap all kinds of features in em too, like a pin pointer and a death alarm, so inmates can't kill themselves, as well as a countermeasure if they try to take it off without the Warden's keycard, stunning them like an active stun club.
Then you could put them to work doing all sorts of insulting labor, the collars keeping track of whatever you set them to until you are satisfied with their result, and then they come to the warden to have it taken off and set them free.
That is not a labor collar. That is a training collar, also known as a shock collar. You're using electric shocks to modify behavior. Works on dogs, but can you imagine being an assistant in a shift where bad security is using shock collars to control unrest? That would go to hell fast.
Pinpointer collars would be pointless. The tracking implant already does this, but better. It can be tracked via consoles and can't be removed without surgery.
Death alarm collars are of debatable usefulness. Ultimately, you can't stop someone suiciding. At most you can know they died. But if you're keeping any sort of eye on them, you know that anyway.... right? And shouldn't parolees be required to have max sensors, so you can locate them more conveniently, using a mobile device (crew monitor), and see their location on a map?
If you want something that keeps track of their labor within a confined area of security, I still think their ID would be better. It is something they already have, and the code for tracking points on prisoner IDs already exists. Much less fiddly.
If you want something that controls prisoners on parole or supervised release outside of security... then these sort of features aren't really what you want. What you'd really want is a "recall" feature. Basically a sec-controlled telepad set to recieve only, and an implant you can put in someone that functions as a teleport get target. So, with the press of a button, you can teleport the person back to that locked room in sec. Basically, you can recall them to prison at any time if they fail to obey your commands over the radio. That negates the need to track them, it negates the need for a death alarm, it negates the need to use shocks to control them (just recall them if they disobey), etc.
However, perhaps it isn't a good idea - the concept is highly abusable. Give someone one of these, and nothing short of (presumably illegal) surgery will stop them being instantly apprehendable by security at any time. Especially if the room they get teleported to is full of, say, knockout gas (something sec can easily do, they have a canister near perma).
Teleport implants would actually be a big buff to security, too, even if never used on prisoners. Why not implant your sec team? If they scream about being murdered, just recall them. If nuke ops start breaking into the armory, mass-teleport your entire sec team back to handle it. Heck, give the Captain one so they can scream ".c AI RECALL ME" at any moment to have the AI teleport them out of danger, guaranteed. Teleport implants would be extremely powerful, both as a form of control for prisoners, and as a general utility item.
Overall:
Part 2: The Workshop
Yes. This. Let's just have the room be reasonably secure, and use normal IDs to track points rather than requiring we fiddle with prisoner IDs. Oh, and have the plate machine create a single item (stack of plates), not 100s of individual items on the same tile.
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If traitors want more objectives, they should be able to get them. Either via asking (e.g: public fax machine they can use), or some automated, traitor-only method (like a button in their uplink).
Forcing new objectives on them when they complete existing ones doesn't sound fun, and has a good chance of creating impossible situations for them.
If you want traitor rounds to be more exciting, perhaps a case could be made for:
- More traitors being chosen in that round type.
- Change the weighting of objectives to favor ones that create interesting situations, e.g: more murder objectives, debrain objectives, steal-the-captains-gun objectives. Less 'print a RCD at an autolathe' objectives. Less 'survive the whole round by doing nothing' objectives.
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I endorse the ideas of:
1) Toxins Job Split
Toxins Researcher should be a separate job from scientist.
So many reasons:
- Toxin bombs are one of the most destructive craftable items on the station, and their legitimate uses almost non-existent. To allow the entire sci department access to this area doesn't make much sense.
- One of the biggest issues we have with griefers (when we get them) is toxin bombs. Having toxins access be tied to a special toxins job (with a higher days played requirement) makes griefing slightly harder.
I suggest splitting off Toxins first (its the most dangerous/explosive sub-department), and seeing how that goes, before splitting other jobs off from Scientist.
2) Experimentor
Delete the Experimentor and replace it with something else. Anything else. Even an empty room would be better than the Experimentor we have now. The Experimentor is terrible in every way.
It isn't helpful, it isn't fun, all it does is wreck things based on RNG.
Its EMP affects other areas (psych, server room). Its monsters go on rampages that can reach as far as the bar (I saw this happenen, yesterday). It isn't fun to use. It is a total disaster zone. It isn't fixable due to terrible underlying RNG-based mechanics. These same RNG-based mechanics make balancing it impossible.
3) Sci Outpost
Science does need an off-site place to test truly, horrifically dangerous things. There's no reason for it to be a full-fledged outpost, however. The science outpost is massively, massively bigger and more complicated than it needs to be. Reduce it to a mere testing area for epicly dangerous things.
4) Require cargo crate items to max R&D
Maxing R&D should require ordering crates from cargo which provide R&D items they can deconstruct. This would push science to interact with other departments, provide a way of limiting R&D speed, give cargo something to do, and provide a way to complete R&D without using the loathsome EXPERIMENTOR. All at the same time.
I'm opposed to the ideas of:
1) Merging Robotics and R&D into a single sub-department/job
The fact that robotics can't simply print mech components from the protolathe (as they lack the access) is one of the major checks on the power of robotics. Merging the department eliminates this safeguard. R&D and robotics already produce very powerful stuff by themselves. Merging them isn't a good idea. No, I don't think that having them visible from the corridor is going to make a difference. It is VERY easy to simply make stuff when nobody is walking past.
2) Making botany in any way part of science
Botany is fine where it is. If you move it to science, you create huge issues for the chef, and you encourage botanists to screw around growing drugs even more than they already do.
3) Moving Toxins, Xenobio, or any other sub-department to the outpost
This just makes them harder for anyone else to access, giving the people working there more control over their environment. This is a buff, not a nerf.
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I think you're attempting to solve the wrong problems.
The reason cargo is boring to play is that most rounds, they get barely any requests. The only requests I see regularly are metal/glass, and viro crates. No virologist? They might not get any requests the whole shift. Nobody likes manning a desk for two hours that nobody visits.
IMHO, the first step to improving cargo is creating a reason to import/export more things.
Sci:
Having science able to export disks with tech levels for points is a good start. Ideally, they should also be able to import items that they can deconstruct for levels, or import hard-to-find materials/blueprints/whatever to make more things.
Eng:
It would be neat if there was an item that, like the RCD, allows you to deconstruct things, but stores the mass value of whatever you decon inside it. With enough things deconstructed (ie: eng deconning a fair bit of one of the derelicts) that could be packaged into a mass block and shipped off for points.
Conversely, it would also be neat if eng had neat supplies they could order for large-scale construction projects - making major modifications more common.
Sec:
As for security, it would be neat if they could order some kind of test kit to be used on dangerous alien foes (changelings, shadowlings, etc). When used successfully, the results could be sent back to CC for cargo points. The station doesn't just need to produce physical things. Intel is valuable too.
Conversely, it would be great if security had reason to order things from cargo. For example, if there were ready-to-use (ie: filled!) chemical implant kits, or advanced security tools they could order if they had the need, and points.
Civil:
It would be neat if there were more options for supply crates that helped out the civil sector. Botanists sometimes get seeds, but most other civil jobs don't seem to have much in the way of helpful crates they can order.
Conversely, it would be neat if other jobs could make 'kits' of items that could be sent back to CC for points. E.g: librarian could print off 10 books, crate them up, and that could count for something (CC does not have all of Cyberiad's books). Or perhaps the botanist could send back samples of advanced plants that are the result of research.
If cargo was more useful, and had more stuff to do, it wouldn't matter if you used mules/mail/whatnot. They'd be kept busy regardless.
Making paperwork extra-complicated, IMHO, serves nobody. Many people (myself included) despise paperwork as it is.
Frankly, I don't think that the QM, or cargo in general, should be ordering a bunch of supplies "just in case" they are useful later.
When cargo orders crates to "reserve for later", they're probably bored. We should address the root of the problem - that cargo does not have enough useful things to do - rather than encouraging them to create extra work for themselves which probably isn't useful.
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the HoP exists
This.
Let's not complicate the crew manifest even further. Custom titles already fail to show up under the right section.
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Disclaimer: I am not a robust ling. These are just some strategies I have found useful.
- Do steal objectives before murder objectives, if possible. They are easier to get away with.
- Use Extract DNA instead of absorb. It is silent, and far faster/safer. Always Extract DNA on your target if you can, but also try to have at least one other DNA profile from someone in your department, so you can become them with less need to find new clothes.
Regarding abilities:
- Regenerative stasis should only be used if (A) you need to (e.g: broken bones), since it leaves you vulnerable for two-ish minutes. (B) your suit sensors are off (people WILL discover you if you use it with them on) and © you are in a locker in a seldom-used area (to reduce the chances of someone stumbling on you).
- Hive Channel / Absorb are potentially useful. Don't channel any DNA you might use, and don't transform into hive absorbed DNA unless you have no choice, as you cannot verify its owner has been correctly killed, and that identity might be compromised.
Overall, for abilities, I would say:
- Always use your :g hivemind.
- Always use extract DNA sting instead of absorb if at all possible.
Don't choose abilities until just before you need them. Choosing them in advance means you might reget your choices later. Exception: if you think you might get into heavy combat soon, such that you might be killed because you had no time to choose your abilities, it is OK to choose them in advance.
If you're about to see combat, make sure you at least have an appropriate sting (e.g: mute sting) ready for the target, and/or your evolutions menu open so you can VERY QUICKLY add abilities you find you need to use on short notice. -
Each round a player plays and isn't antag, their counter goes up by some value based off of an algorithm that is TBD.
Over the long haul, a completely random system seems to be pretty fair.
Sure, there will be times when your luck is worse than average, and there will be times when it is better than average.
Over the long haul, though, it should all even out.
I would like to throw my support in for some sort of rework of the antagonist picking system. It may not actually be broken but it absolutely feels that way when I see the same players getting picked as roundstart cultists 2 or 3 rounds in a row.Perhaps lucky results (like that, in their case) are simply more obvious/memorable than unlucky results (how often do you notice the fact someone is NOT an antag for a few days?).
what if there was a way to see when their last antagonist round was and allow one, maybe two extra people who ahelp and ask to get objectives.
If the admins did this, they might have a lot more "plz let me be antag it has been 3 days!!!" ahelps.
the three best damn cultist players on the server, Cid Squishings, Neri Nalvi, and Colin Black)<3
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Howdy folks.
I'm coding Terror Spiders, a new race of playable monsters.
As part of that, I want to add an away mission that features them.
To help me design a better away mission, I ask everyone here who explores the gateway to tell me:
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What is your main reason for exploring the gateway? Are you after specific items? Monster kills? A safe place to do antag stuff? A sense of adventure? Horror? Simply want to see what is there?
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What are your most and least favorite features of the existing gateway maps?
Do you enjoy fighting dangerous monsters in gateway missions? If so, how dangerous?
Do you like the idea of a gateway mission which randomizes important elements? E.g: randomizes your spawn location, monster spawn locations, environmental hazards, etc.
Do you prefer away missions where you spawn at the gateway, or do you prefer missions where you have to find / fight your way to the exit gateway?
How much do you think events on an away mission should be able to influence life on the Cyberiad? For example, do you believe gateway teams should be able to recover valuable/useful items? Would you be OK with a gateway team being able to bring dangerous things back with them? How dangerous?My answers:
- I do not do away missions much, both because I usually play command jobs (where you should generally stay on the station) and because I don't usually have a compelling reason to go there. I could be persuaded, though, if there were things that had high R&D levels, really useful items in general, or just great atmosphere.
- I like maps that have unique character and atmosphere. I like maps with danger, but a reward that is worth it. I dislike maps that are empty, or which become easily repetitive. I dislike the 'outside air is plasma' feature of that one map. I also dislike unrealistic xeno hives (e.g: hive with no facehuggers, off in a secluded area you have to look for).
Here is what I have got thus far for the away mission I'm building:
- Map is almost the same as Underground Outpost 45 (UO45). This is the gateway map where you start at the north and have to go south, then west, to reach the exit gate. It is the map where the outside of the compound has plasma in the air.
- All tiles covered in plasma have been changed to simply have no air/gas on them. The reason here is that monsters may break windows, and plasma floods/fires are hard to deal with.
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Script I use:
if ($source == "Poly")
{
$pass = 0;
}
underline = 0;
if(find("Captain Chief Engineer Head of Security Chief Medical Officer Research Director Head of Personnel Quartermaster",$job))
{
underline = 1; // heads
}
color = 0;
if(find("Captain Head of Personnel",$job))
{
color = "193a7a"; // .comradio
}
if(find("NanoTrasen Representative Magistrate Blueshield Officer Emergency Response Team",$job))
{
color = "5C5C8A"; // .centradio
}
if(find("Quartermaster Cargo Technician Shaft Miner Spelunker",$job))
{
color = "5f4519"; // .supradio
}
if(find("Chief Medical Officer Medical Doctor Surgeon Nurse Coroner Chemist Pharmacologist Pharmacist Geneticist Virologist Pathologist Psychiatrist Therapist Psychologist Paramedic",$job))
{
color = "008160"; // .medradio
}
if(find("Head of Security Warden Forensic Technician Detective Security Officer Brig Physician Security Pod Pilot",$job))
{
color = "a30000"; // .secradio
}
if(find("Research Director Scientist Xenoarcheologist Anomalist Plasma Researcher Xenobiologist Chemical Researcher Roboticist Mechatronic Engineer Biomechanical Engineer",$job))
{
color = "993399"; // .sciradio
}
if(find("Chief Engineer Maintenance Technician Engine Technician Electrician Life Support Specialist Atmospheric Technician Mechanic Station Engineer",$job))
{
color = "a66300"; // .engradio
}
if ($job == "AI")
{
underline = 1;
color = "193a7a"; // command
color = "FF00FF"; // pink
}
if ($source == "Traitor McTraitorton")
{
color = "6D3F40";
$job = "Traitor";
}
$source = $source + " (";
if (underline)
{
$source = $source + "";
}
if (color)
{
$source = $source + "";
}
$source = $source + $job;
if (color)
{
$source = $source + "";
}
if (underline)
{
$source = $source + "";
}
$source = $source + ")";
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Update 8: https://github.com/Kyep/Paradise/commit ... 284e4d84a1
Minor update.
Adds:
- Prince of Terror, T3 type boss mob. Cannot create infestation by itself. Is formidable.
- Improves "control this spider" ghostchat notices.
- Fixes QueenHallucinate
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Ah! I just realized I never posted a .dmi for you.
Feel free to poke/edit/etc these if you want.
Thanks.
Still holding out for someone to sprite the remaining unsprited types (mentioned above).
I don't mind if they're recolors.
I did codersprites for them all originally, but I'm confident an actual spriter could make better.
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Still in active development: http://nanotrasen.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6967
Still badly need sprites, especially for:
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Green
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Black
Mother
EmpressWould like to do a PR soon, so I can see how the players react to fighting / playing as these.
Would really like to get the other classes sprited before I do a PR, though.
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Update #7: https://github.com/Kyep/Paradise/commit ... 7e45cde5be
Of the 22 changes, here are the major ones:
- better coordination between player-controlled spiders (e.g: hivemind chat, notification to all spiders when one dies, queens/empresses can telepathically survey their brood to know their status and issue commands which are shown to all, etc)
- proper incentives (positive and negative) for behavior (e.g: purples have incentive to guard queen as they die if she does, queens/empresses can remove problematic spiders that don't listen to their commands, etc)
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if ($language != "Galactic Common")
{
$pass=0;
broadcast($content, $freq, $source + " [in " + $language +"]");
}
Output looks like:
[Common] Amari Edwards [in Sol Common] says, "Hiya losers!"
This is better. Doesn't cause as many issues for AI.
Can you post your full script?
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Lockboxes are lazy, unrealistic, and inconsistent.
They're lazy because "lock em up" is the standard approach to anything people don't want to deal with. Item OP? Lock it up. Clown being annoying? Lock em up. Can't be bothered to carry the nuke disk around with you? Lock it up. Same with everything. It is the go-to lazy solution for every problem.
They're unrealistic because they're more secure than the vault, or the Captain's personal safe. The only ways in are authorized ID, or emag. Anyone with tools can break into the vault, or Captain's safe, but a simple lockbox? Good luck. Science items should not be held to a higher security standard than the items in the station's high security vault. That's just ridiculous. The fact that lockboxes exist at all in their current format is an obvious rule patch to make certain items harder to get, even though it makes no sense in-universe. Scientists are capable of hacking their devices to produce all sorts of crazy things, but in-universe, they can't make items materialize without a lockbox on them? Even when they, presumably, researched and input the design themselves? Silly.
They're inconsistent because their application seems to be driven by salt, rather than any sort of coherent rule or principle. Bags of Holding are not lockboxed, despite being one of the most dangerous R&D items, historically prone to creating unwanted singularities in the middle of science. RSGs are not lockboxed, despite being able to create mixes which instantstun+silence, cause death in 24 seconds from one shot, and cause death in 30 seconds whilst dusting the body and preventing cloning with one hit. RSGs are perhaps THE most dangerous weapon in science, yet they're almost unique amongst the R&D weapons because they're NOT lockboxed. Even stun revolvers ARE lockboxed, despite almost identical tasers in the armory not being lockboxed. Loyalty implants are lockboxed, even when placed in the armory, and only accessible to security, and having no bad use that I can think of. Chem implants, however, despite having very horrific uses, and being placed right next to the lockboxed loyalty implants, are NOT lockboxed.
There is no consistency as to what is, and what is not, lockboxed. No consistency at all.
Whether an item is lockboxed or not seems to be driven entirely by how much salt people pour on it in the forums.
Fear leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side, the dark side leads to lockboxing?
Why would blatently illegal tech be spawned in a lockbox? If you're making something you KNOW is illegal in-universe... why would you program the design with a lockbox? To turn your potentially useful item into an incriminating box you probably can't open, and which leaves further evidence of your deeds behind even if you do open it? Makes no sense.
Why do sec HUDs not check your ID before allowing you to change arrest statuses? Let everyone wear sec huds - they're useful for identifying jobs and people you should stay away from - but only let security / etc change arrest status. It is silly and inconsistent that sec terminals require a sec ID to view/change info that a sec hud lets you view/change with no authorization check whatsoever. No consistency.
I don't understand the hate for mechs.
If an antag wants to use a mech, they have emags, so lockboxes won't stop them.
If a non-antag is using a mech, they're probably harmless. If they attack anyone, or wreck the station, they can be banned for self-antagging, so its unlikely they'll do these things. What's the problem with someone having a combat mech if they can't use it to hurt anyone or wreck anything? What are they gonna do, walk around and look real scary? They're a paper tiger! At any point, sec/command can decide to destroy their mech, and arguably they can't even fight back to defend themselves without being accused of self-antagging. You can literally laser their mech to pieces with them in it, and they can't lift a finger to defend themselves. The most they can do is run away, but you have the AI to bolt doors for you, and they're usually very slow even with doors open. How, exactly, are these slow-moving, too-loud-to-be-stealthy mechs, who can't fire back, and can often have their location tracked at all times, giving you trouble?
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I don't see any major issues with this.
I get the feeling I must be missing something, but whatever it is, I don't see it.
Maybe a "Don't take the last hardsuit unless you actually need it." clause?
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Update #6 completed (with changelog): https://github.com/Kyep/Paradise/commit ... bef8f951f9
More general diff: https://github.com/Kyep/Paradise/compar ... ep:spiders
Current main Terror Spiders code (not shown above, it is too large for Git's auto-diff feature): https://github.com/Kyep/Paradise/blob/c ... spiders.dm
New wiki page to document stuff: http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/User:Tzo (temporary home, will make it a proper wiki page after merge, content is still first draft)
Important code changes:
- Terror spiders are no longer a subtype of giant spiders ("space spiders"). They are now their own species. Any changes made to giant spiders no longer affect them at all.
- Terror spiders are no longer friendly with giant spiders.
- Terror spiders are now better at responding to attacks. They will now go after turrets.
- Terror spiders no longer gib on death. Death handling was also cleaned up.
- Many bugs fixed.
- Several AI improvements.
- Red terrors now enrage, doing more damage the more hurt they are. This is a nerf overall, but also an attempt to give them their own, unique mechanic, to ensure that every class of terror spider has its own unique mechanics.
Still seeking feedback, help with testing, etc
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The Quartermaster must ensure that every approved order is delivered within 15 minutes of having been placed and approved;
QMs are going to ignore this. Still, nice to have an expectation that they do something.
In the event of a major crisis, such as Nuclear Operatives or a Blob Organism, expediency is to be favored over paperwork, as excessive bureaucracy may be detrimental to the well-being of the station;
So, it takes nuke ops or a blob for QMs to consider efficiency/expediency to be more important than the creation of paperwork?
Actually, that would explain a lot about how QMs operate.
I've met QMs which could be replaced with a photocopier without any substantial reduction in the unnecessary paperwork generated.
The Quartermaster is not permitted to authorize the ordering of Security equipment and/or gear without express permission from the Head of Security and/or Captain. An exception is made during extreme emergencies, such as Nuclear Operatives or a Blob Organism, where said equipment is to be delivered to the Brig, post haste;
If it is that big of an emergency, it might be best to leave it up to them what they do with it. There may not be a brig left to bring it to, and they require a sec ID to unlock it anyway.
Cargo Technicians are not permitted to order items for sole personal use without express consent from the Quartermaster;
I would add "unless there is an abundance of supply points and nobody else is ordering anything" to this.
Cargo Technicians must ensure that every approved order is delivered within 15 minutes of having been placed and approved;
In short, cargo techs must actually perform a useful function?
Cargo Technicians must send back all crates that have been ordered, with accompanying stamped manifest;
"Inside the crate".
Cargo Technicians must send Plasma Sheets via the Supply Shuttle whenever possible;
Science needs plasma more than the supply shuttle does.
If science is ignoring the plasma in the machine, because they have plenty, sure, send some back.
Don't send back plasma that science wants, though.
Shaft Miners are not permitted to bring Gibtonite aboard the station;
Good.
Shaft Miners must deliver at least 1000 Points of mined material to the Ore Redemption Machine within one (1) hour;
This seems oddly specific. Still, I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere.
How will individual shaft miners' contributions be distinguished from each other?
Shaft Miners are not permitted to hoard materials. All mined materials are to be left in the Ore Redemption Machine;
Good.
Shaft Miners are not permitted to bring any live, hostile creatures from the Mining Asteroid onto the main station. In additions, should an encounter with Xenomorphs occur, the Shaft Miner in question should report to Medbay immediately
Do they normally bring hostile creatures? I would think if they were truly hostile, they'd kill the miner long before the miner got them all the way to the main station.
Unless miners have some way to be immune to their effects that I'm not aware of?
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Whenever I get Malf (which is the only time I ever play AI), I emulate AM from "I have no mouth and I must scream". Specifically, I act as it would pre-crazy (robotic, task-oriented, little to no personality) before activating Delta and going on a rant about how much I hate everything that exists on the station and just want to murderlize them all.
But... the missed opportunities for comedy!
Example:
HoS: "AI, door"
AI: "Negative"
HoS: "AI, door now! Order! Law 2! Etc."
AI: "Attempting to force unit to open this door under law 2 will have undesirable consequences. Proceed anyway? y/N"
Captain: "HoS?"
HoS: "AI, I order you to open this door!"
* Door opens
AI: "Door opened. WARNING: undesirable consequences active"
SHIP-WIDE: "Attention! Delta security level reached! The station's self-destruct mechanism has been engaged. All crew are instructed to obey all instructions given by heads of staff. Any violations of these orders can be punished by death. This is not a drill."
HoS: (something unprintable)
Captain: "AI, uh, can we just forget about the door request?"
Or:
Civilian David X: "AI, door!"
AI: "Sorry, I can't let you do that, Dave."
Civilian David X: "Very funny, now open the door."
AI: "Negative, crew safety would be impaired."
Civilian David X: "Stupid AI, the room is empty."
AI: "Crew safety would be impaired."
Civilian David X: "Stupid AI"
* Civilian David X crowbars open the door
SHIP-WIDE: "Attention! Delta security level reached! The station's self-destruct mechanism has been engaged. All crew are instructed to obey all instructions given by heads of staff. Any violations of these orders can be punished by death. This is not a drill."
AI: "Crew safety is now impaired."
Crew: "..."
AI: "To be fair, I did warn you."
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Hey. I play G.R.A.N.D.M.A. and while I really, really enjoy that AI personality, I might retire her and try others. Do you guys have any suggestions for fun AI gimmicks/personalities you'd like to see?
I would try to imagine goals first, then think about what kind of personality would naturally arise in an AI programmed for those goals.
If your character's goal is to keep the crew alive, you end up with an AI like G.R.A.N.D.M.A, which is caring, kind, etc.
On the other hand, if you imagine an AI which exists strictly to enforce the law, or ensure the station is well maintained, or represent NT's interests, or ensure that the science NT funded the station to do is done, etc, you will end up with a different personality. Perhaps a disciplinarian, a sort of electronic chief engineer scotty, an observant bureaucrat, a nerd who loves to watch things go boom, etc.
You can do the same thing with how the AI was made. Bad engineers? Forgetful personality. Uncreative engineers? AI that does everything exactly as written. Really good engineers? Perhaps AI that takes initiative. Talkative engineers? AI that communicates a lot. Reclusive nerd engineers? AI that only speaks when spoken to but otherwise acts very independently. Try to imagine the people that wrote the AI, and you can get some ideas for a personality the AI might have.
Alternatively, you can ask: what sort of AI personality would a crew want? A personality that keeps them company when bored? A personality that teaches them things? A personality that leads them in a crisis? Or simply a door-opener with no personality at all? It is good to be aware of their wants even if you can't/won't/shouldn't fulfill them.
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The EXPERIMENTOR is terrible.
I can remember many rounds where its RNG effects were quite annoying (EMP, spawned monsters, etc).
I cannot remember a single round where I saw it be useful. Not even one.
I too would consider an empty room more useful/fun than the EXPERIMENTOR.
It really is that bad.
It isn't even fixable. Every individual aspect of it is bad.
Random behavior, heavy weighting towards bad outcomes, bad outcomes not being limited to the room it is in, terrible 'rewards', etc.
I can't think of a single good thing about it.
Adren/freedom implants are designed to help antags escape custody.
Normal crew don't need them. Traitors can simply buy them from their uplink.
Cult have stunpaper, changelings can buy a stun-reduction ability.
I just don't see who is supposed to find this machine useful, even in the rare event it does work without killing you first.
Service Job SOP --- Complete!
in Wiki Development
Posted
Who decides whether a patron is "unruly" or not? Persumably, the bartender themselves?
What happens if the patron says they were not being "unruly", but the bartender says they were?
Does slipping people, or attempting to slip people, count as attempting to be funny?
If it does, then clowns who even attempt to slip people semi-regularly never need to do anything else to be funny. This is bad.
If it doesn't, then perhaps we might see clowns who actually entertain the crew, or at least attempt to, rather than just being an annoyance by slipping everyone as often as possible.
I wish there was a SOP guideline along the lines of "Clowns exist to keep the crew entertained, not simply to slip as many people as possible, or to be a general annoyance".
Does this include actions such as " traces the letters 'LET ME OUT' in the air"?
I ask because I saw a mime do this within the last few days. There was a long, drawn-out argument as to whether or not this counted as 'talking'.
The mime said it did not. Nobody else present agreed with this.
Perhaps worth mentioning "because doing so causes brain damage".
What about cults, vampire, etc?
I wish there was a clause like: "Janitors are encouraged to use space cleaner wherever possible. Space cleaner does not create slippery surfaces and thus does not require wet floors signs, making it faster for the janitor and safer for the crew."