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Posts posted by Kyet
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Do we expect that people would want to play this job, and actually do it all round?
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Does this mean:
- "Here is something similar"
- "Please port this instead"
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Many of us are using https://trello.com/b/YVsRdJRT/paradise-feature-board to plan the PRs we're going to put up once the freeze ends.
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Scientist:
- Change R&D. Instead of certain tech levels requiring the EXPERIMENTOR, delete the EXPERIMENTOR entirely, and have those levels attained by Science doing experiments on weird objects ordered from CentCom through Cargo. This drives interaction with Cargo, and eliminates the god-awful EXPERIMENTOR which is nothing but an annoyance. If we absolutely must keep the experimentor, then divorce it from R&D. Make it able to alter the properties of items in a semi-random way. So you could use it to get super-powerful lights, dull swords, etc.
- Slightly reinforce the scichem lab. Quite regularly, someone screws up, blowing the whole thing up and effectively ending all of scichem for that round. A single decently-sized grenade destroys the test lab. It isn't big or tough enough.
- Better integrate xenobio with the rest of the station. Currently, xenobio is only useful for creating pet monsters. It should have more uses then that. Additionally, having pet xenomorphs/etc should not be as common. It takes a lot of the magic out of these monsters when you're more likely to see them as a scientist's pet than you are to see them as a legitimate threat. Make a potion that allows players inside pet mobs (e.g: Runtime, Ian) to speak English. Make slime-based ingredients which the chef can use to cook interesting food. RP things like that.
- Stop xenobio from breeding 9,999 spiders and flooding ghosts with "do you want to be a spider?" prompts constantly for the whole shift. I put an end to this when I see it as an admin, but I shouldn't have to. At minimum, there should be a "NEVER" option for player-controlled spiders which silences all spider-relates join prompts for that player for the rest of the round.
- Increase the damage of the decloner, and reduce the cost of the plasma pistol. Currently, they are not worth their cost. Similarly, perhaps increase the cost of the ion rifle a bit (they're so powerful, e.g: being a one-hit kill on swarmers).
- Reduce the number of tier 1 parts strewn throughout R&D at roundstart. They are never used.
Robotocist:
- Stop securitrons/ED209s tasing/cuffing robotocists who hold a stunbaton for 0.5 seconds while assembling them. It is annoying and pointless, both for Robotocists, and Security.
- Fix the phazon, which (last I checked), is currently broken, and not able to phase through anything.
- Display the material efficiency rating of the mech constructors in their menus. I am so tired of robotocists using ALL the materials to make one mech, because they never learned to wait until upgrades are done.
- Place a bucket in Robotics by default. There is really no excuse not to make cleanerbots as robotocist. They're tireless, amazing miracle-workers.
- Make sure it is easy for robotics to construct a bot that picks up trash. Often, nobody bothers picking up the trash on station.
RD:
- Revisit Lamarr's display case. Last time I tried to open it as RD, I couldn't. Maybe a bug, maybe me being dumb, but regardless, take a look at it and verify it can be opened. More generally, perhaps we should replace Lamarr as the RD's pet. Lamarr is a blatent half-life reference that is quite old at this point. Lamarr never really gets out of their case, either. The fun factor of Lamarr is quite low. I'm sure there are better ideas for a RD pet out there.
- Consider giving the RD basic medbay access. Much of the time, the RD does R&D, and thus needs to get into medbay to upgrade it. They can already get in via genetics, or morgue. Not having medbay access doesn't stop them getting in - it just makes it more cumbersome than it has to be for no benefit. By the same token, the CMO should probably get basic science access because someone ALWAYS dies in science, and the RD should not be the only person with the required access to get them all the way to medbay. This would reduce hassle for both heads, and encourage them to work together more often.
- Move the PDA password paper out of their office, and into the server room. It is way easier to break into the server room than the RD's office, and doing so should let you use the console there - unless the RD takes the paper or changes the code. The PDA monitoring console never gets used by antags, and the reason why is that the paper is too hard to get when placed in the RD's office.
Genetecist (I consider this to be part of Science):
- Do something to make it easier for them to handle bodies / discourage them always flushing badly-irradiated farwas down disposals. The amount of times this generates a false security alert, wasting everyones' time, is annoying.
- Make them exclusively part of Science, have MDs handle cloning, and have a dedicated Coroner RP job to handle time-consuming dead body processing, like doing autopsies. Genetecists already spend 90%+ of their time doing powers research, calling them a "split department" is a lie. They're part of science, and the only reason people pretend otherwise is that they want someone to take responsibility for cloning - something that doctors, who are currently often idle, could benefit from the additional responsibility of.
- Back off on some of the nerfs to genetics that were implemented. Nobody likes xray/TK/hulks everywhere, but in its current state, genetics barely has reason to exist. I no longer expect Genetics to do anything useful in most rounds.
- Consider adding a fridge, like the medbay medicine fridge, which only stores SE syringes. Genetics could stock it with clean SE syringes. That would be something helpful they could produce for the station. Similarly, they could put useful but harmless power syringes in it for the crew to use.
- Remove or alter the 'fade out until you are invisible' power. Catching an antag that has it is very hard. It allows people to set up almost undetectable ambushes. Having it isn't always a benefit as, last I heard, you can't hear anything while you're invisible. It seems rather gimmicky overall.
- Also, stop hulks being able to completely disguise the fact they have hulk by wearing a suit and mask. Hulk should alter your body shape such that it is impossible to hide you have it. Or give you a permanent green glow. Hulks are so strong already - being able to keep their power secret until they choose to use it makes them unstoppable in many combat situations. They are capable of meleeing xenomorphs and winning, a fact that the xeno doesn't find out until they're downed by a punch. Hulk status should be more obvious.
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Why isn't disguising your voice without equipment a thing? If I were to drop my voice by an octave or so, or otherwise mangle it, people shouldn't be able to recognize my voice purely from audio. And it should be free to do. Some sort of toggle-able setting where you speak as an Unknown, over comms if not in person (as long as you visibly appear as Unknown for the latter, I'd say).
I'm just imagining every assistant on the station, with the ability to speak, anonymously, on comms.
It would be revolution every round.
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How letting ghosts see the highlighted code words when they enable antag-hud?
Done.
One small quirk: right now if you are near someone as a ghost when they use a codeword, you won't notice (as their whole text will be bold).
I'm considering changing the markup for the highlight to be red text, or maybe have a box around it, for this reason.
@TZO - does this work with PDA messages or Announcements?
Not right now.
Partly, this is because PDAs/Announcements are more complexity.
I looked on https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradis ... nnounce.dm - and every type of announcement seems to have its own special code to broadcast, meaning I'd have to modify all of them.
Partly, this is because:
- The entire point of codewords is to identify agents you did not know about. If you're PDAing someone as a traitor, you probably already know about them.
- Very few people have access to create announcements, and announcements get more scrutiny. An announcement about, say, the blueshield, or beepsky smash, is more suspicious than simply mentioning those words over the radio. Everyone pays attention to announcements, but most people will miss a normal radio message. Unless of course, they're a traitor, and to them, it has bold text....
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Simple idea: when a traitor hears a syndicate codeword/response, highlight it in some way.
Normal crew don't see any difference... but traitors can use this to get each others' attention.
This would mean codewords actually got used, and make it easier for traitors to work together.
Example:
Notice that the words don't appear highlighted at first, but once I become a traitor, I see codewords in bold text.
(Ignore the fact that "Prisoner Processing" doesn't highlight in the last line of this example, that's a bug I have not been able to patch yet)
Code: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradis ... deword_say
Trello: https://trello.com/c/bdgCcS7T
Thoughts?
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Quartermaster [...] Cargo Tech [...] some jobs just... aren't fun to play.
The fundamental problem with cargo is that there is very little interaction with the rest of the crew.
1) Other departments need almost nothing from Cargo.
- Sec, Medical, Science, etc can get extra supplies from Cargo, but they don't need to in most rounds.
- There is almost nothing *UNIQUE* that can only be obtained via Cargo. WT rifles for security are one of the only examples I can think of.
2) When other departments do need something, that something usually doesn't involve interaction with cargo in any significant way.
- Deliveries are done by conveyor/disposals, no human interaction required.
- Disks from Science can be placed in disposals, again, no interaction required other than a notice on radio. Just a notice, not even a conversation.
- With mining, people just walk up, dump ore from the machine, and walk away. Not even a 'hello' is required for this transaction.
3) The location is terrible.
- Cargo is unique in that it is the only department on the west side of the station, the dead zone where nobody really goes.
- It isn't even near the rest of the civil department (a department which is, in general, badly laid out)
- Nor is it on the path between any two popular destinations.
4) Cargo's job isn't very meaningful
- Only the QM can approve crates, and 'move crates from loading bay to conveyors, wrap them, apply a mark, then activate conveyor' is not a useful job.
- Hand-delivery isn't possible due to lack of access.
- Crate senders are inconvenient. Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to put the Science telepad in the EXPERIMENTOR chamber, on the other side of the department from R&D, in a room that is frequently home to EMPs and monsters?
My suggestions for fixing these issues:
A) Add more unique gear that can only be obtained via Cargo, probably for high point cost.
B) Make departments actually require interaction with Cargo for certain high-tier items. E.g: Cargo should be able to order things which, when deconstructed in Science, give illegal tech levels. This would be far better for both Science and Cargo players, than Science players having to deal with the disaster that is the EXPERIMENTOR, and Cargo having little of value they can order. Cargo should also have a role in ordering more high-tier weapons/armor for sec, and possibly extra Engineering hardsuits. Things people might really find useful in their departments. A great example would be extra null rods for replacement chaplains, extra revolver for replacement detectives, etc.
C) Give Cargo Techs basic department access, so they can hand-deliver items without it being a massive pain in the ass. Also so traitor cargo tech is more viable.
D) Allow the cargo shuttle to be sent to a 'black market' trader that isn't CC. This trader would use a different supply point total, independent of the CC supply point total, which would start at 0, and not regenerate. AKA: the only way to order things from this supply source is to ship THEM useful stuff for points FIRST, then, once you have points, order stuff from them. The stuff orderable via this method should be mostly black market items. Illegal knockoffs of good but restricted items. Of course, using this cargo this way should be against SoP, and using it this way to procure weapons should be a space law violation. So should selling rare/valuable items from the station on the black market. However, all this could make for great RP. Smuggling ring in cargo...
E) Rethink the locks on cargo crates. They shouldn't be so hard to break into. Right now, they're basically cargo's version of lockboxes. The only way to really break them with any speed is to order emitters, set up those, and hope nobody notices the giant industrial lasers. Also, Cargo are the storage specialists. Let them order, and sell to crew, "personal crates" and/or personal lockers. Things which, when you swipe your ID on them, only open for you from then on (or Captain). Like the personal lockers in the locker room, but easier to move around. If Cargo is ordering from the black market, let them buy versions that look the same but don't open for ANYONE other than the authorized owner, not even the Captain (of course, they can still be broken into, and are contraband). Let cargo sell storage solutions, like a portable version of the Captain's wall safe. Let them, for a very high cost, order crates that let them set up a permanent teleporter between two locations, like, say, Sec and the Bridge.
F) Let the QM set a "risk factor" for their shipments from CC. At "None", cargo behaves as currently, with no risky events possible. At "low", CC may sometimes send cargo shuttles with, say, a lone hostile russian on board, letting the crew deal with him in exchange for a small supply point bonus. At "medium", sometimes CC might send a cargo shuttle loaded with a "gift" from the spider clan (a bunch of spiders), or a small group of russians armed with melee weapons. At "high", admins should be able to manually initiate high-risk cargo loads, like for example mysterious artifacts that NT has recovered and wants analysed on a remote station where, if they have horrible mind-alerting powers, they can do limited harm. If the artifact is successfully analysed in Science, the analysed version can be returned to cargo and shipped back for lots of points. The idea being that Cargo can, if the QM allows it, become notably more dangerous by indicating that they're willing to take on risky shipments in exchange for a point bonus.
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Don't get me wrong, getting rid of the xeno eggs was the right decision, but purging all the fun stuff was just too much.
You may have a point. I can probably think of two fun things that were removed for every one fun thing that was added.
The worst that could happen is holocarps and no doubt medical would be grateful for the distraction.
Inclined to agree.
The game's combat system is robust and instastunning takes a lot of that away, don't nuke it, just don't make it so fucking universal.Agreed.
Atmos, just speed it up please, it's a complete lame duck ATM and everybody knows it
Yes.
They never question each other and that results in shittery flying under the radar, most sec players are decent officers but enough shit happens to taint them all, they're never antags for one so why should they? They simply don't have so they don't.
I don't think sec would be able to function if they had to constantly wonder if each other were antags.
Heads of staff: Comdomand, something all too common; fucking bridge cliques man.
No need to go into detail so I'll get stright to it: Make each head of staff personally responsible for maintaining the functionality of their spheres.
This should already be the case.
If we expect the heads of staff to actually lead instead of behave like petulant feudal nobles maybe they will?Would love to see more of this.
Antags; [..] could do with buffing all round
Not all need a buff. Some need obvious balance issues fixed (like blobs spawning in dead-obvious locations).
If Paradise wishes to improve security, security has to look like a more attractive thing to play; and with every passing day it gets worse and worse. The so-called "goodsec" don't play security any more, or at least nowhere near as often. This means poorer, or newer people play it instead, which means they'll make more mistakes than the previous people. We all know that people make mistakes, and that's fine - Except it isn't in game. Because you make a mistake, you'll get hell released upon you. Why would anyone put themselves up to that?Definite issue.
Would love to brainstorm ideas for encouraging goodcurity.
One would be more admin events
Admins are encouraged to add in *something* if all antags are dealt with.
It can be a new kind of antag, it can be a RP thing. But, something to keep the round interesting.
Separately, I also support more admin events.
Death is meant to be an end, and in LifeWeb, it mostly is
I don't think we should be basing any of our decisions on LifeWeb.
The problem I have with the current state of affairs is new stuff is being tacked on from every which direction, but jobs such as Genetics are fermenting and growing a sheen of mould. It's mechanics are shoddy and it's potential ruined. But instead of improving on what is already present, more stuff is piled upon it to the point where the original problem is forgotten under the new ones. And from the looks of it the feature freeze changed little. Here I'm going to praise Goonstation, as I've had a consistently good time playing a wide variety of jobs when I had a short stint there, every job felt important, as if they had a genuine purpose and good mechanics to back it up.
I agree, Genetics needs to be fixed, and every job needs to be fun to play.
I'd like to tackle some of these (like atmos tech).
Internal Affairs is also overrun with clueless psuedo-lawyers. If they don't know the difference between SL and SOP, and can't tell resisting arrest from uncooperative detainee, jobban their butts. Please. Kudos to FPK and Alex for being two of the maybe half-dozen tolerable IAA players.
Agreed.
IAA jobs need to be made harder to get. Too many people treat them as a license to goof off with a fax machine and a sec headset.
There is always a need for entertainment or those needing less serious roles....................plus you can't get rid of clowns from SS13.That's like removing the mascot.
Yes, entertainment is needed. IAA however, is meant to be a serious role.
Personally, I find clowns nothing but annoying, and would be fine with their complete removal from the game.
A feature unfreeze would be nice and new heavy tweaks or fun things added is most likely going to drag me back in.Sounds like a good path.
But now, that cadre is gone. And we have Security being staffed almost exclusively by new players who will have one taste, then run off somewhere funner. And that is a great issue that, frankly, cannot be solved easily apart from going, and going, and going, and working towards making sure Security works properly each round.
More then that can be done. Examples:
1) Prevent day-0 players from playing security. They won't have a good time, their suspects won't have a good time, and it will put them off playing security for a long time.
2) Ensure HoS and Warden have higher requirements, so more experienced/capable players get these roles.
3) Consider buffing/pushing IAA as well, so there is more of an incentive for goodsec.
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People are correct that PR's get shot down without sufficient communication sometimes. It's something that needs to be remedied. But the same people that contribute these PR's also refuse to fix any issues: they only take, but do not give. If you truly care about the server, push through some fixes and then create a new feature. It means you actually want to contribute to the codebase, and not just push through features that you happen to like. And too many people try to create new feature PR's despite having very little programming experience. The maintainers aren't there to teach you how to code or clean up your code: having your code up to scratch and extensively tested increases the odds of your PR getting merged by about a million (and oh boy, so many PR's are fully untested, and then the original creators of the PR refused to fix any issues). If you write shitcode and don't contribute in any other way to the codebase, are you really surprised the maintainers can't be arsed to review your PR (leaving it in PR limbo) or even shoot it down?
IMHO:
1) In my experience, PR authors are quite willing to fix issues with their PRs. Some of them do it for literally months in order to get their PRs accepted.
2) I don't think it is fair to say that PR authors "only take, but do not give". The act of coding itself, is giving. Even if you're just talking about response to feedback, my experience is that PR authors bend over backwards to please the coders/maintainers, because they know their work will be rejected if they don't.
3) In the cases where PR authors outright state "I can't do that" or silently close their PR in response to feedback, many times I've seen it happen because they don't believe themselves *capable* of doing what is asked. Or don't even understand what is being asked of them. They're not trying to be difficult, they're just giving up in frustration, often because they feel like what is being asked for is beyond them.
4) Clean/high-quality code is not a goal in itself, it is just a means to the end: "having a fun server to play on". Sometimes I feel like it gets treated like an end-in-itself. I can understand people wanting to take pride in their work, and I sympathize, but sometimes it does feel like people are treating the appearance of code as more important than what that code achieves for the server.
5) Coding new features is most definitely contributing. IMHO, they're not only contributing, they're often contributing more than the fixing of rarely seen edge case bugs. If all we had were bug fixes, we'd never add anything interesting or new to the server, which would lead to us stagnating quickly. We need both people who fix bugs, and also people who create new features. We can't just value the former, and treat the latter like second-class coders.
6) Just as maintainers ask PR authors to adhere to minimum standards of code quality, so should everyone else ask coders/maintainers to adhere to minimum standards of constructiveness in their criticism. "Hey, this code has a lot of redundant procs" is helpful. "This code is shit" is unhelpful, disrespectful, and alienating. PR authors aren't drunks who are out to piss in the coders' pristine salad bar, they are volunteers who are trying to help all of us out in their free time. It would be great if we could bear that in mind when commenting on their work. They're potential allies and teammates. We should treat them that way. We can still criticize, we can still say no, but we should do so with clarity, respect, and a view to helping them improve.
7) Ignoring people/problems/PRs/etc does not make them go away. Nor should it. It would be considered unethical to break up with someone by ignoring them until they stop trying to contact you. It is similarly bad to do so in the context of a volunteer coding project. Yeah, its possible, but its not nice. We should never encourage people to use this approach if any better alternative (like explaining the problem and trying to solve it) exists. And a better alternative almost always *does* exist.
Was adding the Vulpkanin to the server a good idea? Probably not.Yes, their addition could have been done with more effort to build community consensus before adding them.
That said, I think the community has spoken. They're very popular. To the point I play some myself.
With most other issues, I think the behavior of the community over time (in choosing to play them) would probably have settled this question long ago.
Sometimes it feels like this issue is only sustained by anti-furry sentiment, and some peoples' desire to attack Fox personally.
If this issue were really about process, really about how maintainers merge things, then I'd expect other, more recent examples, to be used instead.
I'd also expect there to be more focus on community consensus, and less focus on "the furries".
Can we learn something from the Vulp merge debacle? Sure. The community should have more say in what gets merged.
The problem is process, not Vulps.
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Also, Yuki Frost to me is permanently intertwined with paradise, as a reeking example of the annoying furries that are not only tolerated but welcomed.
I hope you're not saying you find people annoying because they play species with fur?
If you're not, then why use 'furries' instead of 'people' or 'players'?
they add absolutely nothing to the server.Wrong.
They prove we're a "big tent" server that's open minded enough to allow in a variety of people.
That is a big part of the reason we're popular, and often sit at the #1 spot on the server list.
I'd still use paradise as a way to introduce new players to the game, simply because it is a hugbox with a furry cautionary tale built in.
Paradise is not a hugbox. We have a fair amount of death and destruction most rounds.
Even were that not the case, I'd argue a hugbox is exactly what new players need.
Getting killed because you don't even know how to wield a weapon is not fun.
In a game where you respawn instantly, dying a lot as a new player is fine.
In SS13, if you die early, you can be out of the game for two hours.
So yeah, new players definitely benefit from a more peaceful environment in which to learn the game.
We're about perfect for that, as we don't have the constant murder-chaos of low RP, or the "you must emote every action" of high RP.
Racial balance is terrible with many races being identical or near-identical to humans mechanically (Skrell) or just straight up terrible (grey). Probably half the races are acceptable (Human, IPC, Vox, Diona, Slime) as they have different gameplay mechanics that are interesting and actually change the way you play.
You could argue that each race should be mechanically different, so each has a different experience.
Or... you could argue that they should all be broadly the same, perhaps with minor tweaks, so nobody feels forced to choose between the race they prefer and the role they want.
IPC is by far the best designed from a player perspective, though a nightmare to code.Are they the most unique? Arguably. But, I don't buy the idea that this makes them the best designed.
Vox are RP'd well the vast majority of the time and are interesting to play as and with.Sometimes they're RP'ed well. Sometimes they just scream constantly. Depends on the player.
Some have some interesting things going for them but are mostly just weaker (Kidan, Grey). The rest have no real reason to have been added, as they are essentially just human reskins. (Vulp, Taj, Unanthi, Skrell).IMHO:
- "Just a human reskin" is not a valid reason to say no to a race.
- If a significant portion of players prefer the new race, even if its just a reskin, that is reason enough for the race to exist.
You had a fun, inclusive server that from the outside appears to have been taken over by and cater to non-erping furries
So, by welcoming more people, we became less inclusive? How does that work?
Most of the players I am friends with play characters that have no fur.
Personally, most of my characters have fur.
It seems weird when someone comes in and says "OMG, look at all the characters with fur! They're everywhere!"
It feels like someone coming in and screaming about the people with red hair, and how they're ruining everything / taking over / etc.
Yeah, sure. Some have it. Some don't. Nobody much cares. Weird thing to make a fuss over.
with longstanding design flaws left unfixed in a codebase that otherwise has a lot of nice features.Yeah, there are some long standing dev issues that need to be fixed.
Hopefully we'll make more progress on that now that we have a third maintainer.
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recalculating as it goes is probly bad performance wise really, I think it'd be wiser to instead reach the destination, and calculate once it reaches that spot. If it gets blocked, it can calculate again also. That way it isn't just constantly calculating a path
Calculating en-route prevents the bot from making potentially long journeys only to find there is nobody there at the end.
Also, this update doesn't increase calculation. All it does is update the target destination so that IF the bot pathfinds (e.g: because it is blocked, and has to recalculate its route) then at least it pathfinds to the current location of the SSD person its going after, not where they were when it left the shed.
If anything, this update will reduce calculation, as the bot now completely ignores anyone grabbed or pulled. This means that the bodies most likely to move (the SSDs being dragged around by other players) are now completely ignored by the bot.
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Updates (in most recent commit, added today):
- Bot will now give people at least 2-4 minutes of time SSD before it decides to go fetch them
- Bot will now detect when someone it is going after wakes up, or becomes unreachable, and return home immediately
- Bot will now be able to handle cases where a body is moved (e.g: by a blast) after the bot has left cryodorms but before it reaches them.
- Bot will NOT chase SSD people whose bodies are being moved by crew (grabbed, pulled).
- Refactored cryopod code to be cleaner
going SSD after stealing a high importance item and using the bot to evacuate you from the area.The bot will take several minutes to notice you're SSD, then more to get to you, and more to get back.
You'd find it far faster to get out of the area yourself, such as by using a garbage disposal.
If someone is abusing the bot for invincibility... simply ahelp it and we'll look into it.
As an admin, I'm betting that will be a lot less common than the "X attacked a SSD" issues we see right now every shift.
It would need like a 10 minute delay I think. Otherwise if someones internet goes down or crashes they have time for the modem to reconnect (some can take a few minutes) or if they restart into a windows update or other such things like that.Ten minutes is kinda excessive. The vast, vast majority of people won't see a big difference between a 2-4 minute grace period and a ten minute one.
If your connection dies, and you either know it is dying, or you're known to have a bad connection, someone can simple buckle you to a chair, grab you, or pull you, in which case the bot will ignore you completely.
I think it should also only work for the main departments and hallways, I don't want it taking a hike through maintenance, possibly blocking maintenance,
It can't block maintenance like that.
If you and the bot meet each other going opposite ways down a hallway, the bot will simply run you over. It'll stun you for 2-3 seconds, move past you, and then you can keep going. This is faster than you both getting stuck on each other.
pulling people out of hiding places and shit.
If your hiding place is remotely secure (ie: bolted door, secret wall, etc) then the bot won't be able to path there, and it will completely ignore you, no matter how long you are SSD.
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I've been saying for a while that we need to restore the 2nd janitor slot. I think the new janitor office is a great idea, but I think the old one should be kept too. Spawn one janitor in one office and one in the other.
I thought about this, but then I thought:
1) If I move the office entirely, then there can be this neat secret room right next to the primary corridor. A great place for antags, etc to use.
2) Splitting the items across both offices, with some items only available in one office, means that a pair of roundstart janitors have their gear determined randomly, rather than them having a chance to talk about it, or at least swipe the cart first. Splitting them up reduces interaction.
3) There isn't really any need for the first office if we have the second. The new second office is big enough for both.
Don't forget to add a mining hardsuit on the asteroid for the extra miner. Honestly adding more than one would be a good idea.
Added one.
I also think extra security officers would be valuable (or specialty "Prison guards" reporting to the warden as suggested in another thread). At least two.
I'm inclined to agree, but I'm going to think about this for awhile before adding them.
In addition to extra officer lockers (could be placed in the security meeting room), a box of secHUD's should be available in the armory.If I add more sec slots, I'm going to add lockers for them. Not just a box.
I recently latejoined as security and not one of the lockers had a secHUD. Why don't joining officers get secHUD's anymore, anyway?
Don't know.
Extra pair of agreeable glasses for the 2nd Detective? Maybe place in joining detectives' backpack to prevent one detective from taking both?
Added to closet.
Add a 2nd bartender/waiter?Thought about it - but decided they probably would not have enough to do.
I can do it, though.
1 - For the janitor a new centralized office could be both good and bad, but overall the rewards outweigh the risk for it. Just make sure to have a camera installed in there.Done.
2 - For the Shaft Miner the EVA room would need to be expanded out by one to fit the new suit needed and to be honest, a spare suit someplace else would be handy as well due to the amount of miners that go SSD after encountering a patch of bad luck out on the surface and never have a GPS so we can find them. Increase in supplies as well would be needed for that to go with the manpower.
One suit added in the east room with the other suits.
One extra suit added in the west room with the pick.
3 - For the detective I can agree with Purpose on the fact a second detective would bring a lot of sec power and could be a problem if they are competent. Would make the antag rounds those detectives are on duty for a drag. So detective secretary/assistant role would be best.
Uh... I'm not sure if the popular support is there for creating an entirely new "Detective Assistant" job.
I'd prefer to stick with two detectives. Or simply not change the Detective role.
4 - Now a place I would like to a position open as the game goes on is a Permabrig Officer. Whenever someone gets sentenced to perma, open up this spot in security and their job is to control perma brig as the warden tends to only keep watch on the front jail cells. This leads to things happening in the back there at Sec which should not normally be going on.
This isn't really viable, for several reasons.
5 - The cargo slot is iffy for if cargo is doing their job then it gets boring quickly and there is not much to do, however if cargo techs go missing, go SSD due to the boredom, ect then things get chaotic there real quick. I think part of that problem lies in the quartermasters not hiring new assistants with the guest pass terminal when the HoP is unable to help in the situation. Maybe in the future we could create something else that cargo can do when it is quiet there.
That's the idea - it assumes at least one cargo tech will go SSD.
6 - A new chef/cooking section spot of a delivery boy/girl for delivering food to departments may be something that could be done.
Delivery boy is actually a good idea idea for a job. Arguably Cargo Techs might do this, but in practice, they don't.
Another thing that could open up new things for people to do is to start working on porting over the new TG lavaland map for mining. It adds many new things for people to spawn as instead of an assistant. Ashwalkers, Free Golems, Veterinarian Hospital, Beach Hangout, Crashed Prison Ship, Botanical Plant people, and clown stuff.Agreed, but out of scope for this PR.
The current janitor's closet doesn't have a camera and is basically in maint, why would we need one here?The current closet DOES have a camera. The fact the new one doesn't was an oversight.
Camera added.
2) Just so I understand, your current plan with the old Janitor closet is to leave it an empty area similar to Maint surgery?
Exactly.
3) Shaft miner will need more suits and GPS devices also.
Two suits added. One locker added.
4)A second detective actually adds a huge amount of power to Security. Not saying thats a bad thing, but something to be fully aware of. If the intention is for it to increase the amount of paperwork done as detective it might be better to always put one Detective subserviant to the other, as an Assistant Detective.
If we're going to create a whole new job which exists solely to do paperwork in the brig... hm. Maybe I should call it something else.
5) A lot of the time it doesn't feel like there is a lot for cargo to do, unsure if adding another tech is necessarily the right thing to do.It is mostly because techs go SSD/cryo a lot.
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Both of them are arguably not Command.
NTR is there to advise, not command.
Blueshield is there to guard, not command.
Just because they have access to Command radio, does not make them Command.
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This seems pretty doable.
But, I ask you: is it worth it?
Suppose you're looking for a specific rare item, like the basketball in HoP maint. Are you ok with NEVER finding it, because the RNG meant it never spawned anywhere that shift?
Is that a better experience that them always being in the same places?
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This thread is for discussing a PR I plan to create, one that will increase job slots.
The main goal is to give Civilians other, useful jobs to do, rather than us drowning in civilians during highpop.
Here's what I've changed now:
- Engineer gets +1 slot, +1 locker, +1 start position at Eng table
- Atmos Tech gets +1 slot, +1 locker, all start positions moved into atmos itself
In total, this adds:
+9 job slots
How do I fit extra stuff in for Janitor, you ask?
Old office becomes a hidden room in maint:
New, bigger Janitor office is added between Holodeck and Bar:
Yes, this is the only office that is hidden in maint. Yes, holodeck moves north a bit.
No, it isn't really practical to fit all of this in the current Janitor office.
Yes, we do need a second janitor. Many shifts, the station is a complete mess, and lack of adequate janitors is a big reason why.
Personally, I believe the amount of blood/etc on the floor is a major contributor to people going nuts / the station seeming like a hellhole.
So, although it requires map changes, and a bigger office, I do think a second janitor slot would be really helpful.
Here's the code:
https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradis ... s?expand=1
(I have not yet reconciled how this will work with jobs.txt. For the moment, the job slot changes are in the job definitions.)
Please comment with:
- Any jobs I missed that really need more slots
- Any of the jobs above which, you feel, need more equipment to account for the higher job slots
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Vivalas wrote:
Some sort of security Ai/silicon who's primary job it is to set arrest levels,assist sec officers,and lockdown the brig if needed. It would also br able to take direct control of security bots like beepsky and the EDs.
Why not simply ask science to create a new AI?
@ tzo
No no no. A second Ai is bad in all cases. A special Ai with other access levels would be fine.
First it can be easily corrupted.
It is independent from an apc/SMES unlike the original one. This is bad ( at least i think it is so, if not correct me)
It can cut the power of the original ai in an instant ( see point one )
If you build a second Ai it should be bound to the Master AI like a borg
It should have no access to the AI Sat Systems if it is not installed there.
Really everytime I had a second ai in my shift as Ai it was a desaster.
My point was: this seems very similar to having multiple AIs, and historically that has not worked out well.
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1. Close off the Security wing, specifically the brig section. Having glass-and-grille barriers for cells facing the main hall means your poor brig is a toolbox away from The Great Escape at all times.
If we want to go that route, reinforced plasmaglass windows might be better. They're ~4x as strong (if memory serves) but don't block vision.
2. Slip-resistant jackboots. Security should not be completely unslipable, but tripping over every wet floor tile mid-chase is hella obnoxious.
Jackboots as a whole are rather meh. They have no advantage over shoes, but constantly give away your position with noise.
Yes, they should probably have an advantage to balance their disadvantage.
3. More than one warden slot and/or jail guards. Between updating logs, processing many criminals at once (because criminals don't take turns getting caught,) managing the armoury and a ton of other little tasks, the warden is easily the most overwhelming and thankless security job. Having a second warden or a couple of jail guards to process criminals and maintain order would be amazing.
Interesting idea. Perhaps "Guard" as a new security position.
4. More than one detective slot. Similar to the warden, the detective can be stretched thin just by reporting 2 crimes at the same time. A second detective means pursuing more than one case and/or forming a buddy-cop crimefighting duo.
Yes, this is needed.
Needs better comms. Something like cargos order manifest system. I want to be able to walk up to a computer, see potential threats, who entered it, leads, last seen etc.
Interesting. Would be a lot of code.
Add the full functionality of security console to sec glasses, including the proper interface.
Not necessarily a bad idea, but might need to lock it to people with sec IDs.
Streamline the security console interface to make it piss easy to report crimes and keep a record of ne'er-do-wells.
Yeah.
Connect the systems of reporting crimes and wanted status together, rather than having them be totally separate.
I think this would slow things down.
Build the Warden into the system more officially - make it so effectively using the system REQUIRES a warden/HoS. Ideas for doing this:
Not viable. There are many lowpop rounds with no warden/hos present. This idea would break those rounds.
The warden's console can be used to directly send orders to, and receive messages from, a security officer, regardless of the status of tcomms.Station bounced radios already do this.
All functionality of the warden's console is anonymous. A crafty traitor with the warden's ID could give officers false orders, and use a pAI to bring the functionality of the warden's console with them.
Is this bad?
Everything the warden can do, the Head of Security, Captain, and AI can do if they aren't fucking eachother busy.
That's normal.
Rather than putting a perma prisoner in the brig for the rest of the round, they are put in cryo tubes, to be left on the station. (and picked up between shifts by a maintenance team or some lore shit like that). While cryo'd they may ghost and observe the round.
There's a "Virtual Reality Prison" idea that might be better.
All long-ranged security weapons should be dangerous bordering on lethal. The only options for subduing someone should be Lethal and Short Range. In particular, Tasers should have about as much range as pepper spray, and very limited ammo.
Or just be limited to disablers.
Tasers could even have a chance to fail at a range of 3 or 4 tiles.
Seems kinda arbitrary.
Energy guns are dumb. "its a lethal weapon with a stun mode!" no. If you want a stun mode get close and start whacking the greytider with your baton. Guns are for killing people. The armoury should contain lasers and lethal bullet weapons only.
Enough of this kiddie "you get 9 minutes timeout" shit. If someone is breaking the law they should get fired from their position. Give the HoS the ability to strip people of rank or demote them to a menial job like janitor, shaft miner, cargo tech, or cook. America uses its legal system to force people into slave labour, so can NT!
What America does is not relevant.
If you give the HoS the ability to demote people, HoP is semi-redundant and we get even more dictatorial HoSes than we have now.
Streamline the system to open new jobslots when someone leaves/dies/gets demoted.
It already does this in some cases.
Streamline the process for equipping demoted people. Dangerously low-tier mining suits or shitty janitorial equipment should be on-hand in security or cargo, and more should be cheaply available from the cargo system.
Not a bad idea.
Now that security doesn't have long-range harmless stun guns, there is a lot more weight behind their decisions to use deadly force to apprehend criminals. Surely this would mean admins would have to be way more attentive of security, leading to even more frustrating BWOINKS and red tape, right?
Any idea that dramatically increases the admin oversight required is probably a bad idea.
Admins can take a much more hands-off approach to asshole civilians and shitcurity, because each side has the actual power to fight the other.
Encouraging sec to use lethals when they don't have to won't lead to RP. It will lead to people being out of the round early.
Let's face it, relying on humans to keep records up to date and keep track of all crimes during a security overload period is unreliable even at best. Trying to filter out screams for help in the convoluted mess the chatlog is when everyone is screaming over security and general channels at the same time is nigh impossible, so what if we had a better solution?
We need automatic crime tracking, based on what people get brigged for.
IE: brig someone for 10 minutes for crime X, this fact is entered on their record.
"crime kiosks"
If someone wants to report a crime, using the radio is faster, enables the AI to jump to them, etc.
I doubt crime kiosks would see much use.
Does this sound too badass to be true?
No, it sounds like something any greytider could abuse by reporting 50 crimes against everyone they see. All of which have to be tracked and resolved in the system.
Some sort of security Ai/silicon who's primary job it is to set arrest levels,assist sec officers,and lockdown the brig if needed. It would also br able to take direct control of security bots like beepsky and the EDs.
Why not simply ask science to create a new AI?
Security needs panic buttons on their suit or as an individual item. To many new players travel solo into the tunnels and get Honk/cult/ling/sling stomped, and the force on the station is severely depleted because of it. If an officer were able to press a button, or toggle an item to report their coordinate case of an emergency, I think it would help out a lot.Solution: don't travel alone. Use suit sensors.
Putting an arbitrarily small karma price on security
We have a policy of never karma-locking default jobs.
We should, however, consider upping the requirements to play security.
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I have no objection to any of these ideas.
My only suggestion is to maybe consider throwing one bigger idea/project in there as well.
I do plan to create an "add additional job slots" PR myself once the feature freeze is over.
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Yes.
Reasons:
- What if there are no living, full heads? Only acting Heads? And the Captain dies? Without a "yes" here, there can be no Captain.
- What if the acting head is the only head that *wants* the position, or is realistically able to take it (other heads are busy?)
- We really should allow for people to become Captain legitimately, otherwise it gives RPers less to aim for, and antags just another reason to kill the Captain for their things because they can't get legitimately promoted to that position.
I'm not sure if the questions about actual heads outranking acting heads is sensible or not.
As far as I am concerned, an "acting head" IS a full head until their replacement arrives. They get the same access, they have the same authority.
The "acting" doesn't mean "has less authority than normal", it means "on a temporary basis until a replacement arrives".
It is for this reason that I'm against the use of "Acting X" titles (just give them "X"), and in general, against distinguishing between acting heads and full heads in terms of policy.
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As soon as the freeze ends, I am going to put up a PR that increases job slots.
It will start with jobs which already support many slots (Scientist, Engineer, Medical Doctor, etc) - and thus require little-to-no map changes to support more.
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I think the SSD Bot is an excellent idea.
Thanks!
Perhaps the bot could create mime-like invisible walls behind them, just long enough to ensure no one abuses the open door, which would close immediately on the bot clearing the doorway.Currently, the bot opens doors - but it also forces the door to close as it moves past, making tailgating the bot very difficult.
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I like the idea, on the condition it be giving a brief grace period before the bot starts to head over. (2-3 minutes)
I thought about this. But I decided not to implement it, on the grounds that the bot already takes time to get to the person, haul them back, cryo to count down, etc.
Adding a timer before the bot even picks them up probably won't do much.
I mean, sure, it could stop someone being picked up if they disconnect for a moment... but the existing delay between the disconnect and the bot picking you up (it has to physically reach you, for example) should be adequate for this.
Instead I'd suggest that people SSD for a certain period of time get flagged as SSD on their health / manifest status. (Active/SSD/Deceased etc).Flagging people on the manifest does literally nothing to address any of the three problems I outlined that were the motivation for creating this PR.
Plus the pathfinding on these bots are notoriously bad.I've tested the pathfinding a fair bit, and it seemed to work well when I tested it.
I even tested weird things, like blocking the bot off mid-path with walls.
Are there scenarios you've seen bot pathfinding fail in before? If so, can you list them? I would like to test all possible pathfinding scenarios.
What about important items that the person has? Maybe the nukedisk, stamps, ids, pai, positronic brains, traitoritems, ai, boards. Will they vanish too, if they are in the backpack of the ssd person ?How is the idea the teleport to a secure space strip of all items and then proceed ( teleport back to station ) to cryodorm. Maybe somekind of storage.
New safeguard added: the bot will never cryo the Captain, or any head of staff, on the grounds of them probably carrying restricted items.
Picking SSD people out of cells may be problematic, too.New safeguard added: the bot will never cryo anyone in viro/xenobio (on the grounds of the locked door preventing access there) or cells/permabrig (on the grounds of people trying to use it to cheat out of those areas).
I am reticent with this idea, because there are a LOT of ways it could be abused, and would lead to the whole PR needing to account for all these little potential issues. Not sure how well this could be implemented.Please list them. I want to have coded-in safeguards which prevent people abusing this.
Improving Jobs: Engineer
in Suggestions
Posted
You're right.
IMHO:
1) Rebalance the Tesla, so that there are pros/cons to each engine, rather than the tesla just being the objective best engine all the time.
2) Have more abandoned / partially constructed areas of the station, so Engineers have a wider choice of projects they can do throughout the round.
3) Have a VERY MINOR meteor shower be a highly probable event, so most rounds there will be some damage somewhere to fix.