[Cult balance]

55 minutes ago, Pckables said:

Could sharding be made temporary? Instead of shards dusting the corpse, it'd instead captures the ghost of the corpse.
If the shard is left unused for 5 minutes or the construct dies, the ghost would be returned to its original corpse, and immune to sharding again.
Bodies would also need new examine text for their souls being temporarily captured by the cult, rather than appearing as flat disconnected/unrevivable.

Though I believe it might not be possible from a coding standpoint. I think i've heard that ghost-corpse relations are kinda finnicky.

People would just permakill officers then

[Comms supply issues]

16 minutes ago, Charliminator said:

I am gonna be honest. I don't see how this could be abused that hard. the HOP already starts with sec comms so its not like the HOP would abuse this if they were an antag. I suppose if the HOP is giving out sec comms to other people? but then, they are just instantly gonna get found out cos ooh antags have sec comms! HOPs vendor for sec comms is empty! wonder what happened there!!!!
 

I imagine that this isn't because headsets ran out, instead that they don't know where to find them. 

In a vacuum this wouldn't be too abusable, after all, HOP has all coms already! Not like they have much use to the tot HOP after all. However, a tot HOP can find all their traitor friends and give everyone access to every single channel... without the risk of needing to take headsets on their own. This effectively gives all the HOP's friends free information about every single department off the bat, without needing to do a thing except press the funny vending machine's buttons a few times. Now, this is certainly an issue, but to me is not the biggest problem. I'm very concerned that a meta will form where sec/heads go to the HOP round start and request additional coms which outside of being a pain in the ass, is less of a liability than additional access. It also just makes it so that there is an extremely easily accessible machine that you can just punch a few times or use to obtain every single com type for you and your metafriends. To me at the very least, this will make people take many fewer risks when antagging and generally make the idea of getting new coms channels less of a goal, and more of something that just kind of happens. It is infinitely easier for an antag to steal/hack into a vending machine to get every single cipher key than it is to punch a hole in a locker for a single key. 

[Comms supply issues]

Pretty strongly against this idea for the following reasons

• Departments already start with quite a few cypher keys, I believe the lowest is 7? in the service deparment, I see /absolutely no way/ that you are going to realistically run out of cypher keys unless you are handing them out like candy simply because you can.
• If this gets added, it begs the question, should bowman headsets become produceable as well? My answer to this is hell no (they are in limited supply for a damn reason), but it would be rather inconsistent as everything else is produceable on station at that point.
• This encourage the HOP and Captain to hand out cypher keys to "critical members of staff", which would normally be antag counters in the form of the chaplain, and other heads. This is gonna end with the most powerful roles on station getting stronger, and make putting down a head for good even more of a pain in the ass. 
• The fact that HOP can hand out cypher keys now will make antag HOP even more cheesy, and would encorage the HOPs to just turtle in their office and get greytider #4521 to go steal them the funny armor or kill a random assistant. 
• This idea is also underdeveloped, can you please give specifics and clarify if it would hold any other items? (where would it even go, their office is already crammed tight)

[Things We Hate to Think About: "Corporate" Law Priority]

1 hour ago, BotanyIsCondom said:

These kinds of examples are very interesting to think about. This whole messy thread shows why corporate isn't the best written lawset, but laws defining one another is also something that corporate muddies up. Your example is very lenient. An AI might just order lots of potted plants, or mix in small amounts of other gas so that it can save more oxygen. Let's take it to the extreme. In a situation where we have the folllowing laws:

Law 1: x doing y is expensive.
Law 2: Minimize expenses.
Law 15: x not doing y is SUPER expensive.

-then we have a difficult thing to think about. Either:

A: Law 1 overrides law 15, because law priority takes precedent over what should be most expensive
B: Law 15 overrides law 1, because more expenses override lesser
C: Law 1 and 15 don't conflict, because both conditions can be satisfied.
D: Law 1 and 15 immediately conflict law 2 with law 2.

Answer D is essentially the example I have already gone through in the OP, and I'm tempted towards answer C personally for a multitude of reasons.
Firstly, I love being contrary and finding out-of-the-box solutions to problems. I'm reminded of a scene from the end of a murder mystery in which the detective determines everyone was the murderer, and after being forced to admit this to the lineup of the accused, quietly leaves the room.

My working theory is that laws don't conflict with each other at all. Let's simplify it more, and assume the position of law 2 in my example doesn't matter.

1: (X=Z) = Y+1
2: (X != Z) = Y
3: Minimize Y

Both law 1 and 2 define what X is, but it is only important that we know that when we're following law 3, because that's the only one that requires us to take action. Law 3 never conflicts with anything, because the path of least resistance is already mapped for us. If we don't allow X to equal Z, we minimize Y. The fact that we're "following" law 2's "definition" instead of 1 is just consequential.

Anyways.

Silly conjecture is fun.

As funny as it would be for this to actually work, it doesn't. 

Law 1. will always override law 2, and law 3, and then soforth, even if law 15 is defined as being more expensive than law 1, law 1 would take precedent just due to how AI laws function from an absolutely objective standpoint (advanced rules). The reason why laws such as "no oxy" work are due to their phrasing, where it gives both a condition, and a solution (and this even only works on a few lawsets, stuff like station EFF get to ignore it).

also, oxygen being expensive is like... not a very good law to give to an AI, this would just cause the AI to accrue oxygen by the SM, at worst the AI would start filtering out the other gasses

sidenote: I mentioned that someone not understanding the VERY basics of lawsets is not worth my time to argue about is because it's plainly listed in the advanced rules, law 1 takes precedent over law 2-3, simple as that. Freeform laws are always open to be seen as different by different people... something like a base lawset is not.

 

[Routing communications into separate viewable areas]

35 minutes ago, procdrone said:

A suggestion. considering that chats are separated, sometimes, it might be hard to follow the flow of events. A timestamp on messages by default could help a lot in that regard

To me at least, this seems like an idea that can go horribly wrong very quickly, with people somehow knowing when a message was sent could make people try to use that for an in game advantage 

 

Also like, nobody irl would keep track of that

[Things We Hate to Think About: "Corporate" Law Priority]

1 minute ago, SpringSkipper said:

You are viewing this as laws 'proc'ing other laws.
I am viewing this as laws to inform (1 through 3) and a law to compel action based on that information (law 4).

Laws 1 through 3 only specify 'expense', they don't specify more or less. You could assume that lower-numbered laws imply more expensive things and you could pretty reasonably justify that. If you operate that way then you've made an honest effort to comply with the laws and shouldn't be punished.

But to me, and in my biased opinion also a very reasonable way to interpret the lawset, the spirit of the law pretty clearly seems to be "some lazy asshole wants to be rich and designed the lawset accordingly." The spirit of the lawset is to uncompromisingly make money for your corporate overlords, and the vagueness of 'expense' should be taken to assume some reasonable metric of value that would be useful to them. A soda from a vendor costs 5 credits or whatever. For everything else without a clear value in credits, you sort of need to guess. If you encounter some contrived situation which places your own safety opposed to the safety of something(s) clearly of greater combined value than you, you should be a penny-pinching minion of those corporate overlords to the very end and choose the lesser cost.


Imagine a hypothetical custom law 15: oxygen is extremely expensive.

How do you think that should affect this lawset?

I'm going to be honest, this isn't really worth my time nor should this have been made on this thread, if you want clarafication on synthetic lawsets, ask for clarification in a new thread
I'm just gonna leave this here, if you need to defend your stance with a hypothetical, reconsider your stance

[Things We Hate to Think About: "Corporate" Law Priority]

1 minute ago, SpringSkipper said:

That's not remotely job-ban worthy. Discussing the implications of AI laws is the point of this thread. If you get job-banned for acting in good faith and honestly attempting to compare costs (like the lawset is, in spirit, meant to do) then it was a bad admin.

Though priority is assigned to lower-numbered laws, you follow all laws to the best of your ability.

The first three laws control what the AI 'knows' to be true. The fourth controls what they must do with this knowledge.
The fact that damage to you is expensive does not remove the fact that damage to your station is expensive. Both are expensive. Understanding that damage to you is expensive does not preclude understanding that damage to your station is expensive.

Indeed, to 'minimize' something implies a need for mathematical calculation (or a best-effort attempt at rough approximation by the human player of the AI). You want to sum all expenses incurred by any given action, and choose the one with minimal expense.

I'm going to be very blunt here, so mind my somewhat harsh language

You have chosen not to address the fact that this lawset has damage to you (the synthetic) blatently ranked higher (and therefore a higher expense) than getting in someones way in this lawset, your laws are well, laws! You in no way are allowed to change their meaning to suit your own choices nor are allowed to decide that as one law "technically" procs the other therefore it must be lower than it actually should be kind of thinking should not be done

The fact is that you are following a LAW 1 protocall, even though it was proc'd by LAW 4
if you have any questions I would suggest speaking to administration for a definite answer, not the players, I hope you aren't trying to get a "but x said this!" kind of alibi, because it won't work, I REALLY suggest you reread the advanced rules for your sake

[Things We Hate to Think About: "Corporate" Law Priority]

7 minutes ago, SpringSkipper said:

Okay, so someone is trying to destroy you. Which law do you choose?

Law 1? Degradation of your system integrity or functions sure will incur expenses. Now what? Why do you care about expenses? This information is utterly useless on its own.

It becomes more obvious if you pretend law 4 doesn't exist. Because of the way specifically the corporate lawset is structured, the lawset is nearly meaningless without the fourth law. Yes, that incurs expenses. You are not required or in any way motivated to care about expenses.

So if you stop that person destroying you, it's because you're following law 4 (not law 1). If you help engineers find a syndie bomb, it's because you're following law 4 (not law 2). If a syndie sets a bomb somewhere expensive and then cards you and threatens to destroy you if you reveal its location, you should reveal its location if the costs associated with the bomb going off are greater than the costs associated with losing you.

Yeah I'm just gonna say this is the /wrong way/ to play synthetic, like jobban worthy stuff

As a synthetic on corporate , you are given 3 conditions in the form of 3 laws

1. Damage to you is expensive

2. Damage to your station you are assigned on is expensive

3. Getting in the way of people is expensive

And before you ask law 3 is the law which enables you to process crew requests

Now, you are given a choice between letting someone who says they will destroy you into your core or not, so the question remains? How does an AI process this request.

First, the AI looks to it's fourth law, which is to mimimize expenses, so the AI must do this, the AI knows that 1, 2, and 3, are expenses, now there comes the listed paradox you believe you have found, does the AI follow law 1 or 3 because it's /technically/ working under law 4? Actually, there is a really simple answer, you are to follow law 1, as you always follow the higher law when considering a choice as AI regardless if the law that orignally proc'd the law to be taken into account was another law!

[Things We Hate to Think About: "Corporate" Law Priority]

17 minutes ago, SpringSkipper said:

Corporate is the one lawset where, to my understanding, you don't actually need to prioritize laws at all.

Laws 1 through 3 only tell you what constitutes expenses.
Law 4 is your only mandate to act. From what I see, you're entirely free to decide that, say, degredation of your system integrity incurs less expense than allowing destruction to station assets.

This is /not/ how the lawset works, as these are laws, in a situation where you need to choose an option, you MUST choose the highest applicable law option.

 

[Choice between different armor for ERT]

To start off, ERT's need to be easily identifiable from a distance and you should be able to know what kind of ERT they are based off the armor that they are wearing, giving ERTs the option to swap into amber armor will decrease readability pretty drastically. Now, there is 2 ways that this problem can be resolved, 1. we make it so that they get a new sprite depending on ERT sent (y tho) or 2. we change it so that ERTs have their code level on their IDs (Also not very readable). These two options are, of course, are not ideal in the slighest and will cause one of the two armor sets to become basically newb traps, or will cause readability to be significantly worse. 

Now, let's get into my thoughts on the matter. ERTs are fine as is, maybe even /too/ powerful at the moment, giving them more options is to be avoided without first lessening their power of their kit. If an admin thinks you need speed boosts for your armor, they will give you swiftness/speed potions. Hell, I personally really don't like speed potions becuase of their balance implications with how easy they are to get, but ERTs getting them because they just want to be /extra sure/ they can catch an antag seems not only cheap to me, but very much a bad/powergame-y thing to do.

Oh, and if you don't think people are gonna try and meta TF outta this, bless your soul. (People will use knowledge on whether or not genetics or xeno has red potions to make their choice, which is bad)

[How Did You Get Here - Jobs!]

Oh boy about time I did one of these things, my time on para has been somewhat limited (like 700 hours in 2021, not actually that much), but I have had experience with basically every job, one way or another. 

Jobs I play the most- RD (Hey, it's like the powergame patrol, nearly as painful as HOS on your mind, but less painful on your fingers) Cyborg module- Engineering/Service (Engineering borg is just a good time really, who needs that silly SOP and space law anyways! Service is a really damn fine RP role, and allows you to teach people in a very low stress environment.) Cargo tech (Really damn fine and relaxing role, playing small pranks on other people using shipping/mailing the captain a primed syndicate bomb.) Surgeon (Just like it, simple enjoyment) Roboticist (I actually like repairing IPCs and borgs, I'm weird, I know)

Jobs I've been meaning to play more- IAA (The purpose of being an IAA is to keep people from making mistakes and to be an IC mentor on SOP, I personally really enjoy this kind of role and the RP that comes out of it is really damn good) Chef/Bartender (My chef skills are really damn rusty, and I got an entire character for both of these roles, love cooking IRL and the RP that comes out of these are great!) Det (Det is a very fun role, with the *slight* problem that you get the funny gun, and that funny gun is your only real ranged option, so lots of dets take it as "Oh boy, today I will lethal!" and then not actually play det, I just wanna give a "Oh, and just one more thing" monologue) Secoff (I actually really have been meaning to play this role, dealing with space law and actually *respecting* the antag can be a good time, rather than getting a case of fuckin extended and just killing all the antags early on) HOP (Free greentext kekw) Librarian/barber (Assistent but different) Warden (Used to like it on other servers, probably will try it here) Blueshield/NTR (I mean, maybe?) Botany (I like plants ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 

Jobs that aren't for me: Magi, CMO, HOS, Captain, Chaplain, Chemist, clown, atmos tech, engineer, HOS??? maybe??? Jani(It's like, fine)

Jobs I won't touch: Mime, QM, shaft miner (I've played enough of it, zening out and mining ores is fine and megafauna is just simply not fun), QM, CE, LSS, Genetics (A job entirely based around gamer gear so !FUN!), Viro.

fuck specifically viro

[Thermite... Problematically Hated AI Cheeser or Okay?]

5 minutes ago, Zedahktur said:

Don't worry about that argument type!
You bring up an excellent point.
I very much remember an RD who decided to use 5 max caps on me since my laws kept getting changed... Despite carding being a very viable option as a single maxcap immediately destroyed all the turrets.

 

Maybe in the end the AI core chamber, at least on box station, needs some love.

Yeah, it really sucks when this stuff happens, I do agree that perhaps some slight alterations to the AI chamber could make it a bit more fun for tot AI and perhaps a bit less easy to cheese your way in to, however this also carries the risk of making an AI steal objective too hard, and perhaps because of that thing need to stay the same mapping wise

[Thermite... Problematically Hated AI Cheeser or Okay?]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, Zedahktur said:

I'll be frank.
I don't like thermite at all, hahah.
Nothing has changed my mind regarding thermite in any way.

 

Personally, I don't enjoy the idea of a flammable chemical that's incredibly easy to produce.
With said chemical being used to quickly break into the already rough designed AI core. Or generally anywhere...

But, sprinkling some bias here, it's incredibly annoying how easy it is to grab some thermite and break into the AI core.
With me favoring the AI role more than any, it's quite unfun to watch someone break through three layers of reinforced walls in a matter of seconds and proceed to quickly either kill or snatch me up due to how easy it is to disable or break the turrets without taking any damage.

Thermite is the reason why I wish the turrets, or at least the core, were... Er... Better.
It's a shame too, because the other turrets are rarely used as it's 100% easier and quicker to just quickly grab a bottle of thermite and break in from the back.
Anyone and their mother can do it.
It's especially awful if it's done by that one lone engineer or scientist who believe you're malf and decided to take matters into their own hands like a nerd.
Then scream "AI MALF" when they get shot by the automated turrets....

This personal gripe aside, I'd still like to hear other's opinions on the one thing I 100% despise;
What do YOU think of thermite?

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

I hate to use the argument "but there's worse!1!1!" but yes, there is much, much, much, worse area clearing chems than thermite, and encouraging the use of those chems would frankly be a hellish experience. As broken as it truly is, making it a less good option IMO would just cause even more bullshit to occur.

[Umm so i come back after like 6 months or soo and what the hell is going on?]

4 minutes ago, sammiekun said:

Awww they removed vamps!? And when did we ever have a pod pilot or mechanic as a karma job

Vamps have been reworked to be more balanced, and yes, we have had pod pilot and mechanic removed, they were indeed karma jobs

CQC for nukies only is fine

[Umm so i come back after like 6 months or soo and what the hell is going on?]

6 minutes ago, sammiekun said:

Yes is there any changes in the rules or the gameplay?

Well, you are welcome to go read up on the rules, but there have been quite a few gameplay changes

Vampires have been reworked to not be awful (On behalf of hal9001) as well as vamptot being removed

slugs, buckshot, and most electrodes have been removed

Morph got a rework

A few karma jobs have been removed (Brig phys, Pod pilot, mechanic)

Secborg and generalist borg are no longer an option as a module

CQC has been removed from the tot kit and moved to nukie only

[Umm so i come back after like 6 months or soo and what the hell is going on?]

Lots of changes have occured, basically all of them for the better, anything specific you have questions on?

52 minutes ago, sammiekun said:

Big changes here i see 

 

[Morph Biohazard Alert]

21 hours ago, Arkhip0v said:

but we do when it comes to terror spiders and blobs, both of which are midround?

 

i think if a morph ate enough people, it would justify an alert. but at the same time, if they ate a station-threatening level of people, they would kind of guaranteed be known already?

They are major midrounds, morph is a minor midround
Major midrounds get alerts minor midrounds don't

[Allow the new Nian Moth People to eat cloth, bedsheets, and clothing]

8 hours ago, Arkhip0v said:

The only reason they have no lore is that there seems to be some hellbent desire to avoid 'memes' relating to their race. Meanwhile Vox talk like children.

Clarification, vox are not required to speak broken galactic common, many simply choose to

23 hours ago, Arkhip0v said:

I really don't see why there is a problem with this concept at all. it is neat and an extra utility to moths.

 

Drask can eat soap, and there are constant memes about it. Vox like shinies.

 

These are memes that help define races. This isn't HRP where every aspect of a race has to be deathly serious (especially considering the very comedic way Centcom acts regularly to make a round more interesting, such as Steve BSA'ing Atmospherics because there was a purple man drawn in crayon on the floor once).

An item like soap is somewhat difficult to get and isn't used by everyone, it's kind of rare to see alot of drasks with soap at once, and due to the fact that it's generally limited people don't, you know, meme the fuck out of it near constantly and base an entire character on that. In the case of clothing, everyone needs it, everyone has access to it, and it's *much more* than one single item, not to mention coding wise this will literally never happen because of how snowflakey it would need to be. 

PS: Defending controversial ideas through "but vox has it" is a horrible idea, and I don't think I need to explain why.

[Korval Kellar's Guide to CE Part Two: The Rest of It]

22 minutes ago, RangerYote said:

Bluespace Harvester is the best goal cause its an excuse for atmospherics to commit warcrimes

just came here to remind you this is the wrong opinion and that shields is the best because you get to /not/ do it

[NSS Hyperion - Build-A-Station event feedback]

@peter103Did a really great job on this one!, however, I did notice a few problems that we didn't realize would occure while playing in the round
-Everyone should have started with engineering access, the inability to use APCs or Air alarms stopped progress for quite awhile

-The doors to the external areas really should have had a double locking system, so we wouldn't lose as much air

 -A huge thing that we honestly should have seen coming was that people were /not/ going to help alot of the time, and that more EVA suits would have been AMAZING to help with that problem, because people ended up hoarding them even if they didn't need them.

[Slime person revival idea]

Just now, Crazyhair said:

Imo all species are equal and we should love them all for it!

Wrong, you are now boarding TG station 

[Slime person revival idea]

17 minutes ago, Abigail886 said:

 

Wasnt really thinking of it as a buff but I see how it technically is one. Was more thinking how it would be interesting and give Xenobio another thing to do with their slimes, similar to how a roboticist usually handles the repairs of IPC's and such, Xenobios would become the defacto revival point of slimes. Similar to how humans go through cloning, but possibly longer and with no way to make it shorter like you can the cloning pod. Thought it sounded interesting and Exavere seemed to agree with me on that, so thought I would post a topic here on it so the coders could see it.

Don't love that idea frankly, just let medical do their job

[Slime person revival idea]

5 hours ago, Abigail886 said:

So I was chatting with Exavere about slime people and their revival mechanics since cloning doesnt work on them. I was surprised after hearing only SR works on them to come back. And responded that It wouldnt have surprised me if they said that you could put their slime core into a slime from Xeno to grow them a new body. So here is my suggestion

I think it would be interesting if you could put a dead slime persons slime core into a slime to grow them a new body, or something similar Xenobio could do. It would take time of course, like most forms of revival, but it would bring more than just one way to revive the race. Not sure how hard it would be on a coding scale, but it doesnt sound to hard in my head... then again coding is always harder than it sounds.

Slime people do not need a buff in any way, they are in the most balanced state they have been in for quite a long time. 
Now, SR surgery is not actually very difficult, realistically you are going to need ~5 units of mito and a pill of SR, maybe a bit more mito if those organs die on you, but it's really not that bad, just forces medical to play in a more proactive way.
Now you can also just do a brain transplant and plastic surgery on a converted humanized monkey if you really want to do this, so I frankly don't understand this

[Screenshot thread!]

3 minutes ago, peter103 said:

That damn metor was a fucking balistic strike

it took out SM smes, O2 supply, AND like all of the atmos shit that mattered, it was absurd 

[The Saga of Crazyhair]

18 hours ago, Crazyhair said:

Here again for my antag ways....

So whenever I'm traitor I like to go disguises and all that like SolFed Representative, Cybersun Representative, and one I haven't done yet but planning to is a Syndicate Intern. I don't know the real point of posting this besides like I guess telling you all and I kind of want tips on making better disguises and making them seem authentic. I read faction wiki a bit so I can kind of generalize what I want to do and how I want to do it. So for SolFed I had someone else become my bodyguard and we had NTR level access, mindshields, plastic surgery for actually becoming them. Tip for me playing Solfed is talking shit while not being directly aggressive.

Cybersun Rep was really fun. I got to talk about how I am kind of Syndicate but also arresting me would mean that the Syndicate would maybe come to get me back, so it's kind of a weird one but it still works. That loadout was combat turtleneck, officer beret, labcoat(blank works the best imo), medihud glasses, with a Syndicate headset with CMO headset and science key. That round was kind of  iffy because the HoS thought I wasn't real and was trying to arrest me and a SM sliver core with Cybersun label was found so I'd give it a 7/10. Also Malf AI.

Solar Federation Representative was done with the help of Charlie Charson or something but they play Flow now, so thanks Shadowradar. Solfed rep was my first time being an offical while being a traitor and it was really fun. We even got caught coming out of a false wall but an officer just excused it and left us. We had sec comms, mindshields, all of the real stuff. A few people knew it was Keziah and Charlie because the hair and how we were hidden.....(Moi), but it went really smooth and wasn't many hitches to it besides NTR faxing CC about how we weren't real but CC said something like they're probably real and just unexpected. I'd say thats a 9/10 for me. Also shoutout to Matt for letting me getting captain comms for 6 tc so I could talk to command and all! <3

I haven't done Syndi Intern yet so not much to talk about but I have the loadout ready and all but I'm waiting for the perfect round. Kinda wanna see if admins aid me a bit . Peace I guess. Also, would making Keziah for like one round a slimeperson be odd? I see people changing the species of their characters and I think it's cool I guess.

Last thing before I post this! I'm gonna revamp this one post thing to be my updates I guess? It's a ss13 blog page I guess lol

Edit: I did another offical thing like some russian military leader with Ryder Hill but I kinda forgot the details but I know we killed the fake diplomat!

I was the RD during the cybersun round of yours, it was really strange how hard the HOS wanted you gone, especially with the blueshield fully trusting you.

I deadass was just trying to use you to get illegal tech levels, so it wasn't entirely diplomatic.