Complaint against David Rossi

[GroundCtrl]

 

Admin Key: David Rossi

 

Complaint:

 

Good Afternoon,

 

My complaint is in regards to an issue I endured during a round on 10/27/2015 at approximately 1350 hours EST. I was playing as a humble station engineer named Caden Thomas when I was called to fix the wall to chemistry which had been deconstructed. I arrived to find Tolly Hawker, a botanist wearing a gas mask and an engineering hardsuit, inside the chemistry lab utilizing the machines. The medical doctor that was on scene asked her to leave and she refused. He attempted to disarm her and drag her out but when she stood up, she disarm spammed him, armed herself with a crowbar, beat the man in the head, then kept him in a perpetual state of disarming. I backed up and called for security. Security never responded or dealt with Tolly throughout this entire incident. Tolly offered the argument that she had been blinded and was attempting to create a chemical to heal her ocular damage. I asked her to wait outside with me while I fixed the wall, she refused. Instead she began stuffing beakers into her backpack and creating chemicals. I tried to stop her by removing the chemicals from the buffer and deactivating the machines all the while reminding her that she was trespassing. Tolly engaged in the typical immersion shattering arguments of "You should've picked security at the beginning of the round if that's what you wanted to play," that so many players do when they are told by a regular employee to stop doing criminal behaviors. Despite her lack of roleplaying ability, I attempted to educate her that my role was simply to repair a breach in a secure area and that her presence in said secure area would be reported by any loyal NanoTrasen employee. My arguements were futile as she continued to shove me and move about the lab at her own will. When I removed her chemicals from the machine and threw them on the floor she became enraged and stated that she was going to attack me.

 

I again called for security and eventually a borg arrived. The borg asked what was going on but left almost immediately as it arrived. I again disabled the equipment and pleaded with Tolly to leave with me and wait for appropriate staff to assist her. She exclaimed, "That's it," and armed herself with metal sheeting, and began beating me in the head mercelessly. I attempted to move away but she pursued me and continued her onslaught. I dove into my inventory frantically, withdrew a flamethrower, and lit her aflame.

 

Unfortunately, my lack of knowledge of the game led to that action killing both of us as there was a welding tank nearby. We were brought to the cloning facility and she was helped first. After she was fully cloned and healed, her first action was to grab my lifeless body, throw it into the trash chute, and then deconstruct it so that I would be without my body. When I was cloned, she made sure to make fun of the situation before throwing me into the chute and fleeing.

 

I contacted admin David Rossi and relayed the aforementioned information. Initially, David was somewhat neutral and inquired about certain details. I was completely transparent about my role in this incident and explained to him a concise version of the above describe events. He stated that while her actions were shitty, they did not violate any of the rules and stated that I had in fact violated the rules by escalating my violence. I submit to you the following:

 

4. Avoid Excessive Violence:

 

When provoked into extreme anger a punch or two may be realistic but Nanotrasen doesn't hire people who bludgeon someone to death with a crowbar when angry...

 

While I admit that a flame thrower is arguably a violation of said rules, had I not defended myself with it, I would've been placed into a critical state by Tolly because of her actions against me. Bear in mind, I had dealt with this individual for well over five minutes and in that time watched her bludgeon another person into incapacitation. Was it my role to submit to their beating and allow myself to be incapacitated?

 

8. Meta:

 

When it comes to character skills, please try not to be a Mary-Sue who knows how to do everything on the station. As a guideline, it is ok to know 1 department out of your field - such as a security officer knowing engineering, or 2 if they are related, such as a Scientist knowing some medical and chemistry.

 

Is it likely that a botanist knows some chemistry? Sure. Should they also know how to deconstruct station walls? Probably not... Should they be in an engineering hardsuit? N-No... Not really... Should they immediately attack the corpse of an individual they had an altercation with after arguing with them as a ghost as soon as they are cloned? I sure fucking hope not...

 

3. Play the Role you’ve chosen:

 

Choose the role based on what you want to spend the round doing, not in order to obtain access and equipment or to impress people with a prestigious title. If you take a role, other players will be expecting - and may rely on you to do it.

 

I checked after our altercation, no plants were being grown, no botanist to be found.

 

7. Self-Antagging:

 

While petty crimes and theft are acceptable if it fits your character, if you are not an antagonist, actions such as subverting the AI, stealing high value items such as the Captain's ID, mutiny, and other actions that could lead others to believe you are antagonists are not to be done.

 

I stuck around to the end to see if Tolly was an antagonist and what a surprise, she was not. I was told by David that she was given no discipline, not even a warning, for her actions against me and the other player. I did my best to argue my point with David but he refused to listen. He often misquoted exact logs saying, "She just pushed you a few times and accidently hit you." I corrected him by pasting the logs into our chat showing the Tolly willfully disarmed me multiple times and struck me in the face with metal repeatedly while verbally stating her intentions to strike me. Despite this, David was unwavering in his resolution of the incident, which was to scold me, formally warn me, and leave my character naked, clone damaged, and stuck without any identification.

 

For the remainder of the round I was tased multiple times by security and arrested for not having identification. My round was completely ruined and some asshole got to have a grand time. I know if any admin caught me, an non-antagonist botanist, trespassing in a secured area, with priority equipment that didn't belong to my profession, beating up staff that work in the department I am claiming to need help from, they would have sent me on a vacation to think about my actions. Why didn't Tolly just ask the doctor that was asking her to leave for help? Why was she beating the doctor instead? Why was none of this addressed?

 

Far be it from from me to assume that because I asked an admin for help I am automatically right. And do not mistake my complaint for me claiming to have not made a mistake during this incident. But how can one be so obviously blind to the chaotic rule breaking behavior of another player? Aside from David being in a romantic relationship with whoever plays Tolly, or being Tolly hinself, I cannot see why she would not have been disciplined.

 

My complaint of this incident may seem petty but I'm making it to ask you to look at this from a new player's perspective. Maybe it's an error for me to see you community as a business that wants to cater to others to create a fun environment so if I'm wrong in that, I apologize. But other admins have given me the impression that they give a shit and David accomplished exactly the opposite. I'm trying to learn this game and how this community wants me to act. I'm really fucking trying. I'm playing by the rules, or the best interpretations of them that I can muster. Situations are constantly evolving and often unique so sometimes I ask for help. This incident seemed so plainly black and white from what I have learned in the two weeks I've been playing with you to be in my favor of having been wronged, that I was completely and utterly shocked to receive the response that I did. It was discouraging to say the least. Thank you for taking the time to read this and addressing it. I appreciate that a forum to maturally discuss incidents like these exist within your community.

 

TLDR: Got attacked then meta griefed, complained, was told to fuck off and warned for my actions.

 

Respectfully,

Jason Parras

 

[David Rossi]

 

Hey there, glad you could submit this with details on the event, I shall begin quoting some areas and adressing the issue as a whole from my perspective, please keep in mind some areas may be shrouded as this happened earlier today, but I remember core elements.

 

I assume this complaint overall is about my judgement over the player Tolly, not about your warning over excessive violence. Anyway, I shall begin.

 

Was it my role to submit to their beating and allow myself to be incapacitated?

I did say to you that it's okay to fight back reasonably, it went from simple disarm mashing, to three hits with metal, whether it was intended or accidental doesn't matter much, you then completely escalated this by using a flamethrower.

 

Is it likely that a botanist knows some chemistry? Sure. Should they also know how to deconstruct station walls? Probably not... Should they be in an engineering hardsuit? N-No... Not really... Should they immediately attack the corpse of an individual they had an altercation with after arguing with them as a ghost as soon as they are cloned? I sure fucking hope not...

As much as some people don't like seeing people wearing engineering hardsuits and breaking station walls outside of their job role, it's not a rule violation to do things outside of your job role, more of a space law violation, it's mary sue if she was to know practically everything... knowing chemistry and deconstructing a wall isn't terrible at all, and for the final point, we have CMD, people can choose to remember their life before cloning or not, but not what happens when you are ghosted/dead.

 

I checked after our altercation, no plants were being grown, no botanist to be found.

Again, could be many factors regarding this point, some Botanists/Botanical researchers grow foods/experiments which can't be harvested repeatedly, could be no chef meaning there's not much need to work, or just simply they've been gone long enough that the plants have died and withered away. Informing the HoP no work is being done in there makes things much easier to deal with, just because an engineer slacked and didn't fix a light, doesn't mean they get bwoinked and job banned, but say they didn't set up the Singularity resulting in a power failure? That's a different issue. It varies with that rule.

 

I stuck around to the end to see if Tolly was an antagonist and what a surprise, she was not. I was told by David that she was given no discipline, not even a warning, for her actions against me and the other player. I did my best to argue my point with David but he refused to listen.

From what I recall, regarding the issue of the Chemistry scrap, what they did wasn't self antagging, pushing.. lead to hitting with metal, accidental/intended. But you escalated it to a flamethrower, what they did was a space law violation, not a rule violation hence I did not warn them, I did speak to them to inquire details and check vars on both sides... and no I did not refuse to listen, I was warning you for excessive violence, it was near the end you asked me my judgement on Tolly.

 

He often misquoted exact logs saying, "She just pushed you a few times and accidently hit you." I corrected him by pasting the logs into our chat showing the Tolly willfully disarmed me multiple times and struck me in the face with metal repeatedly while verbally stating her intentions to strike me.

I began shortening the version of the story for ease on both our sides, I laid out what happened to you previously. So me saying this was merely for ease on the issue. Now really if it was accidental/intentional to hit you 3 times in the chest with metal... not really a bother honestly, not excessive violence in any stretch of the imagination, again.. a space law issue.

 

Despite this, David was unwavering in his resolution of the incident, which was to scold me, formally warn me, and leave my character naked, clone damaged, and stuck without any identification.

My discussion with you was mainly about the escalation of violence with the flamethrower, it was a warning as you have no previous history regarding excessive violence. The last bit? That's just not true, as a Moderator I don't control the power to give you your clothes and ID back, that was up to you. I said that as well, you were in the brig lobby where there are public access doors and many intercomms to request some help. You weren't stuck.

 

I know if any admin caught me, an non-antagonist botanist, trespassing in a secured area, with priority equipment that didn't belong to my profession, beating up staff that work in the department I am claiming to need help from, they would have sent me on a vacation to think about my actions. Why didn't Tolly just ask the doctor that was asking her to leave for help? Why was she beating the doctor instead? Why was none of this addressed?

These issues aren't really bwoink worthy... I can agree with the random beating. Quite frankly alot of the questions there weren't relevant to you at all. I was discussing with you about what you did with the flamethrower.

 

Far be it from from me to assume that because I asked an admin for help I am automatically right. And do not mistake my complaint for me claiming to have not made a mistake during this incident. But how can one be so obviously blind to the chaotic rule breaking behavior of another player? Aside from David being in a romantic relationship with whoever plays Tolly, or being Tolly hinself, I cannot see why she would not have been disciplined.

I have summed up why that they were breaking space law, not rules. And well yeah that last point... no. If I ever had a complaint raised on someone who I potentially will have bias with, I will seek out another staff member to handle the issue, if no staff are online then I will take it from a objective standpoint, holding no bias whatsoever.

 

But other admins have given me the impression that they give a shit and David accomplished exactly the opposite. I'm trying to learn this game and how this community wants me to act. I'm really fucking trying. I'm playing by the rules, or the best interpretations of them that I can muster.

I am failing to see how I accomplished the exact opposite honestly, I adressed an issue and dealt with it, what Tolly did overall was shitty yes, but it wasn't a rule break, it was space law violation, I acted on your excessive violence, that's what I was discussing with you for the chunk of our talk.

 

TLDR: Got attacked then meta griefed, complained, was told to fuck off and warned for my actions.

I know it's a TLDR but no... didn't tell you to fuck off, I warned you for excessive violence.

 

Anyway, that's that. Thank you for your complaint, that was my perspective and replies to some of your mentions. I believe I acted fine in regards to the rules and judged the situation with no bias and came to the right conclusion.

Again, cheers, hope that clears some of the thoughts you had CTRL.

 

[GroundCtrl]

 

I appreciate your response David, but even in the responses I feel like you are focusing solely on what I did and not at all critical of the other individual. It just doesn't seem at all neutral from my, albeit biased, perspective. I wish that you would so feverishly defend my position as you have her's.

 

Look at it like this. You know from me telling you, and I'm sure there are ways you can check, that I have been playing with you guys for only about two weeks. I haven't learned even a tenth of what this game has to offer in that time. I don't know Tolly's level of experience but they seemed rather educated.

 

It seems cancerous to have a player that is so well versed in this game and this community's limits that they might exploit that and ride on such an edge that they would ruin the gameplay of not just one, but two individuals. Is that not call for concern? Is that not worth my complaint? Does it not warrant more than just a, "Yeah, that was shitty?" If I'm not in my department or doing my job and instead harming others as a non-antag, I am beownked. Every. Single. Time. Especially if I've already incapacitated one peaceful player.

 

[GroundCtrl]

And no you didn't literally say fuck off, it was just a TLDR.

[David Rossi]

 

I appreciate your response David, but even in the responses I feel like you are focusing solely on what I did and not at all critical of the other individual. It just doesn't seem at all neutral from my, albeit biased, perspective. I wish that you would so feverishly defend my position as you have her's.

 

Look at it like this. You know from me telling you, and I'm sure there are ways you can check, that I have been playing with you guys for only about two weeks. I haven't learned even a tenth of what this game has to offer in that time. I don't know Tolly's level of experience but they seemed rather educated.

 

It seems cancerous to have a player that is so well versed in this game and this community's limits that they might exploit that and ride on such an edge that they would ruin the gameplay of not just one, but two individuals. Is that not call for concern? Is that not worth my complaint? Does it not warrant more than just a, "Yeah, that was shitty?" If I'm not in my department or doing my job and instead harming others as a non-antag, I am beownked. Every. Single. Time. Especially if I've already incapacitated one peaceful player.

Hey there, just got up.

 

I was moreso giving a overall perspective, as it was only near the end of our discussion that you asked what judgement I gave Tolly in that situation. I'm not defending anyone, and I am quite sure I did not feverishly defend her position, I simply told you at the end of our discussion that they weren't warned for their actions there.

 

And that's great that you're new here, I respect new players as much as I do experienced ones, I am new myself still honestly, my account hasn't even broke 300 days old yet.

 

Also... the me mentioning that it was shitty, was to you. Not to the other player she may of harmed, all that entire discussion we had was over the incident that occured in chemistry, it was about your actions mostly. And for the last point it really does depend.. sure if you're going around beating random people for utterly no reason other than to stir up trouble, it'll earn you a bwoink.. but if there's RP context? Things vary, what are rule violations and what are space law violations are pretty different things. I am not saying Tolly had RP context to beat you both... I wasn't observing what happened and I only have attack logs of the issue. I saw that in the incident, she broke space law. Malicious intent or not of attacking you with metal. It was 3 times. You then as mentioned many times now used a flamethrower. What Tolly did broke space law, not rules.

 

Again, mentioning back to random beatings. Alot of the time every bwoink starts off with.. "explain what happened with x person" So you get a story.. reasonings behind what happened. So if you had 'self defence' reasoning or reasoning in general to have a brawl with someone. It is taken into consideration... If there is no RP and it's just a fight which goes on till you both die? Yeah that's a problem.

 

What happened in Chemistry between you and Tolly.. I'll sum it up finally and leave my final note on it - Disarm mash, 3 hits with metal (Accident/Intentional is not a matter right now) then you escalate with a flamethrower? Tolly did not do wrong in that regard.

 

Now that's my last point I'll make on the matter, seniors will be taking over this complaint.

Thank you CTRL, I do hope this has cleared up some issues here as a new player. I am a new Moderator, learning the process of moderating myself, we're mostly in the same boat, we both make mistakes, I feel here though, I made the right judgement on both of you. Warning for you, no citations for Tolly.

 

[GroundCtrl]

 

After significant additional rounds of play with Mr. Rossi present, I can see he has a difficult task as a moderator. He is incredibly active and informative. Even if I disagree with him in this instance, I would like this complaint closed and removed from his record. Thank you and I apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused.

 

Respectfully,

Jason Parras

 

[Earthdivine]

 

Darn it, all my work I was typing up, gone.

 

I thank you very much for this, even if nothing much came from it, it is still informative. I hope you have a better time here.

 

[GroundCtrl]

I apologize. You all do a good job, I just get frustrated as I'm sure you do. David was not the problem.