Admin Complaint - Spacemanspark

[Cyiko]

Admin Key:  Spacemanspark

Your Discord name (if applicable): MischievousGremlin#3759

Complaint: During a shadowling round, I was hired by security and the HoP, allegedly with the also captain's permission according to the HoP, to build a bunch of security turrets all synced up to the sec records and would react to nothing else beyond unknowns but that's just a function of the turrets I cannot fix. I had security access and went along doing this job diligently, constructing turrets around central primary that surrounded the bridge and extended down the hallway towards science, one in front of robotics and one in front of medbay. In the middle of constructing a turret below the HoP line in the bottom left corner of central primary, I was bwoinked by Spark and told to stop because it is validhunting. I complied but I asked "Would he bwoink a roboticist for building dozens of beepskies" at which point that was called a strawman and no further discourse happened. I stopped building turrets, the shadowlings ascended and overall the turrets contributed very little to the round.

I have been hired for the custom job of "Turret Technician" many times in the past and no other admin has had a problem with it, only one curious staff member asked and I explained their function and that was that. Functionally the turrets I build are virtually no different to a beepsky, they only did the following. They disabler people with a wanted status, disabler unknowns, disabler people who hit them and disabler people not on the crew manifest, essentially producing a beepsky that does not move but instead engages criminals that enter a specific area.

I do not think what I did was valid hunting, and while I did comply with the request of staff, I do not think the ruling was valid. I was doing what I was hired to do, build a security system for security to use and for the entire custom job to be shut down at the request of one staff member, despite no complaints from previous members of staff is just bizarre to me. I very much enjoyed being a Turret Technician and would like to be able to do so again.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Cyiko

[Dumbdumn5]

Apologies for the long wait, got caught up with end of semester finals for High School and then got dragged off for 9 days on a family trip without a computer. I'll be handling the complaint here. 

Turret technician is a bit of an unorthodox role and something that's likely to draw attention, but much of the actual proceedings would be based on the paper trail and other players at the time. I'll take a look at the logs and see if I can grab the name of the captain and the HoP, as being hired to security would be exactly what you need in terms of having a legitimate reason to slap up a few turrets around the central primary hallway and other areas as you did. I'll admit that it's much harder to run from and avoid a disabler turret, but if you have an ally nearby or learn the location of the turrets then you can slip by a few areas through maint, but that's just more of a challenge for the effort that had to be put in in the first place getting the assemblies set up and all the equipment prepared for the turret's construction. 

Before making a final decision on this, however, I do want to take a look at the server logs and see if I can talk to others who were also in the round at that time. Thanks for the complaint.

[Cyiko]

The wait is no issue, thank you for looking into it

[Dumbdumn5]

Right, after scrounging up some of the logs and talking with the staff on the issue, Spark appeared to have contacted you after having observed several previous rounds asking for a turret technician position or just to create said turrets in general. In this situation, being that it was late-game shadowlings it was more acceptable, but on lower chaos rounds without much of a present threat, the staff has determined that it's really something to avoid, as it's basically complete area denial for wherever you build them unless somebody has an EMP prepared to deal with them. 

So, in clearer terms. In this situation, if you were a member of security and held to the same standards or security had asked you first, and the roundtype was one in which there was clear and present danger (such as war ops/nuke ops, violent, widespread cult in some circumstances, high thrallcount shadowling, highpop high conversion rate revolution) then it would be more acceptable to build turrets, but more commonplace rounds, such as traitor, changeling, autotraitor, vampire, etc. are rounds that the staff would rather you avoid turret construction. Ahelping first to get permission for this kind of thing, as it is a major factor in antag rounds, is something you should probably do first. It does not appear that any punitive action aside from a 'knock it off' PM was given, and as such, this might be better off as just a clarification on what is and isn't alright from the staff.

If you've got any other questions, want to ask for more clarification, or otherwise comment or continue to discuss this, I'll leave this open for a while. If this is closed by the time you see it, poke me over discord for a similar function or ask that the complaint be re-opened if you'd like it extended. @Cyiko

[Cyiko]

While this was up, I did ask for permission previously when It was on blue, two seconds later went to red alert. Because of Spark, I've been replied to with the simple response of I've been told not to, as though I've been completely banned from turrets. 

EDIT: On a side note, not sure if it was mentioned already but all those turrets had disabler beams, they could not kill people, hence why I compare them to beepskies that don't chase you.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Cyiko

[Dumbdumn5]

Aye, the discussion in staff chat factored in specifically disablers as being pretty much area denial, they won't chase you, but good luck getting rid of them, as you'll probably have ot run around the area they guard instead of taking out the turret, and even then, you'd be highly visible while doing so. It's more that it's significantly more unfun to fight as an antagonist because it basically puts up denial within the entire view range of the turret, and in central primary that's a pretty difficult thing to ignore due to both the importance of the area and because it links all of the major hallways with the only other way around being a long maint trek.Though some will likely say no, it doesn't hurt to ask if you think turrets could be acceptable in the round.

[Cyiko]

True but at the same time, antags could also do quite a bit with them as well if they get something as simple as hud-glasses

[Dumbdumn5]

True, but the only antags with easy HUD glasses access are traitor and maybe a good shadowling the rest will usually have a much more difficult time getting ahold of them and exposure to sec is likely going to either out some antags entirely or going to risk their arrest in trying to even prepare to counteract the turrets themselves, and for a normal antag round, it seems a bit much to the staff, hence wanting it on the more high chaos rounds where the likelihood of the turrets being disabled or fought more reasonably would be much higher.

[AVagrant]

Sorry to interject, but one can also print hud-glasses easily through RnD.

Not involved with the complaint, but still want to see proper information relayed.

[Cyiko]

I don't really know. Turrets aren't that much of a be all end all! I've got a bit of a list of ideas off the top of my head of things that can be done . 

 

. Get a security ID to turn the turrets off

. A sec hud to change your status, this can also let you use the turrets against security, as the turrets will now shoot them and security has to fiddle with their own wanted status, letting the antagonist escape.

. A fake identity.

. Shoot the turret, it's a disabler so it will have to shoot and hit you four times to down you.

. Cut the power to that area .

. Simply avoid them, they can't move so you can just run away from them

. Subvert the AI to control them . Subvert a borg to mess with them .

. Beat the hell out of them. If a random janitor can do it with a toolbox then so can an antag

. EMP the turret

. Block it off, though this is ugly and difficult so not really that viable, still an option though

. Blow them up if you really have to, though this should be avoided.

[Dumbdumn5]

A lot of these are good suggestions if you don't take into account that people may hear the turret firing at somebody or be around a turret in such a way that some of those strategies, such as turning the turrets off directly, shooting the turret, subverting the AI (Which is lot to do just to get rid of one factor of all the regular security). Beating the hell out of turrets is highly noticeable and noise creating, as is EMPing them, and blocking off the turrets is putting a physical AOD on top of the one that just exists due to turret range, unless you mean literally constructing walls around them, which will also draw some attention. Blowing them up is the noisiest of all of these methods. Using a HUD, while it will work in the short term, still means breaking into sec or stealing a HUD from sci's protolathe/unlocking it if you are sci, a fake ID requires snagging somebody else's or spending some extra TC on agent IDs specifically, which might leave you a bit out in the open if you don't have a decent disguise and anyone who might now better walks by. Simply avoiding them is hard to do if you place them in all of the major traffic areas of the station and pretty much restrict movement of antags to a certain maint. For instance, placing one in the sec hallway, two along the starboard hall on sci and medical entrances, and one at each corner of the primary central hallway, you pretty much block off a good chunk of the station for the 'avoid' strategy. 

Apologies for taking so long to reply, a few of my classes took a turn in intensity and pushed a few deadlines closer to the last few weeks.

[Cyiko]

All of this does stem from them getting discovered to begin with though, that's another factor of it.

[Dumbdumn5]

True, but then having to be even more obvious and potentially expose your name to more than just somebody with sec records, making noise and drawing attention to yourself, breaking into a possibly already fortified sec room because you've poked the beehive and gotten security on high alert looking for you for a HUD (Or into sci for HUD glasses if tech is high enough), generally drawing attention to yourself in a significantly more noticeable fashion than just being on the run from beepsky's, ED's, Security, borgs/AI on the PALADIN or Robocop lawsets, and any other elements that could be out for you already.

It just seems like it'd be a better fortification for when shit really hits the fan and not just for general antag rounds where it might not be necessary i.e. vamp, normal traitor, changeling. Instead it's much more fit for the warop nukies or higher pop shadowling rounds where that kind of defense would be way more necessary to keeping everybody alive rather than making it that much more difficult for the less heavy hitting antags.

Much like an antag's goal is meant to make the game fun for everybody else, sec also makes the game fun for everybody else including the antags and minor criminals, considering they're the consequence to the objectives they have to carry out in general. Hence the reason why the team said that they'd rather you lay off the turret strat on calmer rounds. If you want to do it just ahelp, if the admin's cool with it then you can go ahead. A lot of judgement relies heavily on context and there might be a few good situations where you could do it with no problem that weren't listed before.

[PurpleGenie]

After the above debate, this complaint was more or less processed but has for whatever reason, been left here to collect dust. This resolved and I'm filing it as such.