[New Crit Discussion:]

Discussing the chance of it occurring on literally the first possible tick isn't very useful for us to get a handle on how much it's going to impact antags. I think it would be a lot more useful to know, on average, how long it would take for someone at -1 HP to die, assuming they took no additional damage from outside sources. 

[New Crit Discussion:]

9 hours ago, Carbonknight666 said:

Alright so they are forcing the medical system to be far less realistic and less fun.

I'd argue it's more realistic not to have magical defibs that revive dead people.  I don't feel realism has much value though. I agree with you on less fun, but of course that's subjective.

 

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Yes. The system's got some serious problems. But let's stop playing pretend that dead people being revived was the ONLY thing Medical did and that removing defibs suddenly DELETED those other non-dead players.
It's exaggeration beyond the point of being worthwhile to the discussion. It adds nothing but noise at this, it just muddies the issue on both sides and makes it actively harder to debate and discuss. The strong emotional response has been noted, but now we need more then an emotional response, now we need more depth and criticism to be had about it.

You're right that it's hyperbolic to say literally everyone will have to be cloned.  That said, it will reduce the 'pool' of patients medical has that can be interacted with in ways other than cloning them. That's going to be rough for a department that already struggles to generate enough to do most rounds. Exactly how bad it's going to be is open for debate, but it's going to be some degree of bad.

 

[New Crit Discussion:]

1 minute ago, Mitchs98 said:

The Corazone recipe was removed.

I stand corrected. Sigh... more hacking away at the hole to make the peg fit. 

[New Crit Discussion:]

27 minutes ago, Carbonknight666 said:

The new crit system has good aspects, I just think a revival method should be available if someone dies as you're working on them or if they die right before the paramedic arrives.

The lack of revival methods is kind of baked into the new crit system.  If it's easy to revive someone who dies on you while in crit, then them being in crit loses it's weight. That's kind of why revival methods and the new system don't really mesh well... which in turns leads to the 'shove everyone dead in the cloner' problem because once they're dead a doctor can longer interact with them in any other way. That's one of the reasons I no longer support it, after liking it initially. 

I feel like we have this really nice square peg we're trying to shove into a round hole, and since it doesn't fit we're just taking a saw to the hole until it does, rather than simply using a round peg.

Also, it is still possible to do heart transplants, but you'll need to either be really quick or use Corazone. 

 

[New Crit Discussion:]

42 minutes ago, Carbonknight666 said:

The change is university unpopular, so it will be implemented and the community will have 0 say. 

Just saying a change is unpopular isn't useful feedback.  You won't convince anyone it's true just by insisting it is. Even if you did, saying a change is unpopular isn't necessarily an argument that it shouldn't happen. 

I would recommend giving your thoughts about why the changes are bad.  Even if you're just saying "I agree with this person." 

[New Crit Discussion:]

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

You also did nothing to even slightly address any point my post brought up whatsoever, in favor of a massive passive-aggressive salt pit, which is super helpful and absolutely benefits a discussion and will in no way sabotage feedback at all and is SUPER professional coming from an administrator.

It was satirical actually, as in an attempt to use humor to prove a point. I'm sorry you didn't like it, but it wasn't a dig at you personally.

Let me try to explain to you where I'm coming from here.

What I hope to avoid is medical doctors on Paradise becoming simply cloner operators. To that end, I want methods to actually treat people, not put them in a machine that just makes their injures irrelevant. There are two ways to do that. One way is to nerf cloning.

The other (which I personally think is the vastly superior option) is treatment methods that rival cloning.  Treatment methods skilled doctors can use to get people back alive and kicking more quickly and efficiently than cloning. So when you have newbie doctors they just throw everyone in cloning and it takes awhile, but if you have skilled and robust doctors they can use other methods to get people back alive and kicking.  Who is staffing the medbay becomes vitally important and has a major impact on outcomes for patients.

The thing is, this is exactly what people want to get rid of. The argument there is to nerf everything BUT cloning, so everyone has to use cloning. Then cloning won't be so good because there will be a backlog. By removing or nerfing everything but cloning, we actually in effect nerf cloning by creating pressure on it. If this isn't your actual argument, please correct me to what it is. That just seems to be my impression from what you and some others have said. I don't want to misrepresent you.

That argument makes sense if your perspective is solely on the overall balance of how easy or difficult it is for people to get back into the round, and you don't care at all about how fun or interesting the medical profession is.  If you do care about that, even a little, this option is disastrous. I'd also argue it's inherently flawed since the bottleneck can be bypassed by building additional cloning pods, but that's getting off topic a bit.

So, why is that option so bad in my opinion?

Before, everyone who came into medical who was dead for less than 5 minutes could be defibbed, and then you had a patient to work on and do your job as a doctor.  Now it's 2 minutes.  If the new crit system passes, everyone who comes in dead will be someone doctors cannot interact with beyond throwing them in the cloner or morgue. 

So the window of patients we actually have to do medical work on will become incredibly thin.  We'd need someone who has taken enough damage for there to be something more for us to do than a few patches, but yet not taken too much damage to die. And we need them either not in crit, or in crit but arriving in time to be saved.  Will there be patients like that? Sure.  But a whole heck of a lot less than there were when you could treat anyone who died in the past 5 minutes. The majority of 'patients' won't be people doctors can actually do anything with beyond throwing them in a cloner or morgue tray.

On other servers that might be fine.  Maybe because on Bay there is a much larger emphasis on roleplay.  Maybe lethal attacks are rarer, and when people do die, it's a lot more about the aftermath of being cloned and the necessary counseling for the mental issues that arise from it, than it is about the actual medical treatment.  And maybe it's okay on TG because TG is more about the antags and the action they provide than how each department operates in a bubble. And maybe the medical system is designed more to get people back into the round fast than it's designed to be fun and challenging for the doctors. I don't play on those servers regularly, so I don't know. 

I do know that not everything that works on other servers works here, something we agree on when it comes to this critical system.

And I do know that if the critical system goes through as is, and cloning goes through as is, doctors will largely be cloner operators with a very narrow band of actual patients who need to be treated.  That's going to be a massive blow to what was a fairly good and rewarding medical system.

That's why I'm really, really concerned with the idea of nerfing everything but cloning in order to pressure it.  I hope you can understand that, even if you can't agree with it.

 

[New Crit Discussion:]

52 minutes ago, Ty Omaha said:

No the problem is the downsides to cloning is easily fixed via "throw in cryo tube with mutadone and mannitol"

Or the downsides are non-existent once the cloner is upgraded. 

But I think saying "Cloning is the problem" and saying "Cloning's current mechanics are the problem" is functionally the same argument. I'm certainly not arguing that cloning couldn't be changed so it isn't a problem, I'm just saying as it exists now it's a problem.

[New Crit Discussion:]

31 minutes ago, Regular Joe said:

Would completely like newcrit if there was another way than cloning (SR - usable with clonables or not?); I might suggest that altering cloning could atleast change the atmosphere that Evadable's post describes in the mechanical way, whether that was otherwise reasonable, well, on second thought not that sure. But the alternative methods... there should be more, right? 

In the new system there will only be cloning and SR, since defibs don't revive, and you need to defib to do a brain transplant.  I suppose you could borg someone, if that counts as revival. But yup, that's it.

And keep in mind, SRing someone will be even harder than it is now, as you'll have to deal with the new critical system, plus any future nerfs to SR.

 

[New Crit Discussion:]

I agree completely, cloning isn't a problem at all. Doctors just need to get better at using ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS when it gets overrun in extreme emergencies (the only time it ever will be overrun).  I'm tired of all these baldy doctors who think the only thing they can do is clone, when we have so many viable and robust ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS available.

Let me all tell you a story about how it's really done.

Let's say it's terror spiders or something and cloning is overwhelmed and bodies are piling up.  As an industrious doctor who knows his shit I say "Ah! The cloner is overwhelmed! It's finally my time to shine as a medical doctor! I will not just piling bodies at the cloner, I will use the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS to get everyone alive in no time and being a fucking MEDICAL HERO.

Okay.  So first I sift through the dead bodies.  By now, most of them are ghosting.  Some have respawned as terror spiders.  Some have logged off.  So I systematically drag them one by one to the morgue tray until I find purple lights.  Ah! they're still logged in.  I don't know if they want to come back to life, but hey this one has promise!  So I SR them, and nothing happens, because they aren't in their body.  So, I wait a bit and SR again.  Still nothing.  That's two SR pills down.  Oh well. I move onto the next. Surely someone in this giant pile of corpses wants to come back and I'm going to be a MEDICAL HERO when I show off my ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

So finally I find one that comes back.  By now I've used up 6 SR pills, but hey, I got one! I rush them to Cryo and... huh, already dead.  Try to defib.  Uh oh.  Heart arythamwasit?  Oh, their heart is dead.  Well, I'll just ask the friendly and responsive genetics department for a humanized monkey, since that's their job and surely my peers are as dedicated to the medical profession as I am.  Oh, there's just one geneticist and he hasn't moved in the past 45 minutes.  Well, I guess it's time to go hunt down tools and break into genetics.  Okay, whew, someone else already broke into cargo, so I can get a multitool easily.  I just had to dodge a few spiders, no big deal.  Now, just a detour to learn the wires, shocking myself in the process but no problem, I got meds4dayz.  Okay, hack into genetics, disassemble the window, grab a monkey cube box.  Now just put it into the empty genetics scanner, mess with the last block, and aha a humanized monkey! Now, I could have taken the heart from it as a normal monkey but I know I'm going to have to replace the limbs, so might as well humanize it now while I'm already broken in.  Okay, I have what I need.  It's time to practice ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

As soon as I find the body of my patient. I swear he was here just a minute ago... Well, let's go searching morgue trays. I sure hope he hasn't just logged out or respawned as a terror spider in the meantime.  Oh lucky me, I found them and the tray is still purple.  Okay, great, time do my thing!  As soon as an OR opens up.  I need to remove the heart and replace it, but both ORs are taken, because of course they are, it's a terror spider attack.  So, I wait. and I wait.  There's no formal queue here, and the living people are already screaming about the wait, I really can't bump them out to do surgery on a corpse. After awhile, a tiny hole opens up and I slip in and get started.  The surgeon who was in the OR is now swearing at me for 'stealing their OR' and screaming to the CMO to demote me.  Two patients in the waiting area with broken bones are swearing at me for treating a corpse when they're alive. The surgeon is now back trying to chain disarm me.  We have an impromptu doctoral deathmatch for dominance of the OR, and the space gods favor me, and I now control the OR. Of course. I'm a MEDICAL HERO.  Surely, when they see the power of my ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS, they'll all see the folly of questioning me.  One of the living patients is now on the floor in critical with spiderlings pouring from them.

Okay, take old heart out, put new heart in, defib... Oh right. It's been like 20 minutes now, way beyond defib range.  But that's fine, more SR! Oh boy, the heart didn't die this time!  Cryo them up, go back to the OR.. oh, it's taken again.  Well, I'll just keep them in cryo until it opens up.  Of course, since it's terrors and we have a bunch of critical people coming in, the other doctors aren't happy about me keeping a cryotube constantly occupied, and the Cryox is draining pretty fast, but that's just because they're incompetent baldies that don't know about ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

Finally get back into an OR.  Patient dies 3 times on the table, but I just keep defibbing to reset and eventually I have all the septic limbs removed, I've repaired their chest and skull, both IBs, and replaced their missing blood.  The patient has no legs, and I can't replace them because terror spiders have taken over genetics and someone stole my humanized monkey.  But, my patient is alive.  I look down at him on the roller bed as I drag him to the shuttle which has now arrived because by now it's the end of the round.  I tell him he has been saved by a MEDICAL HERO using the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

He asks me why I didn't just clone him. Urgh. I calmly explain to the half a person on the roller bed that cloning has numerous drawbacks.  It can be overwhelmed, or tampered with! Yes, what we just went through was a much better option, and I'm sure, any day now, the rest of my fellow doctors will come to see that and start playing medical doctor the way I do.  With the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS.

I don't get karma.

 

tl;dr:

Cloning is fine, it just needs to get overrun so Doctors will use ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS which are completely viable in the emergency situations that would lead to the cloner being overrun in the first place.

SR is OP, it needs to take at least 10u to revive someone and the recipe should require a ground up chain of command.

Spaceproof races are OP, nerf slime people.

Death is trivial.

 

 

 

[Cyborg Death State]

Not in that situation. The SoP is to keep all Cyborgs linked to the AI, unless it's subverted or Malf. That's the only bit regarding Cyborg laws, so there's nothing saying a Roboticist can't change Cyborg laws freely if there is no AI, or the AI is compromised. (There isn't anything saying anyone else can't either, but Borg maintenance is clearly within a Roboticst's duties).

There are a lot of rules regarding modifying the AI's laws, but all of them specifically say 'AI' and not 'AI and Borgs.'

 

[Reach the highest number without an admin posting]

-1

[Cyborg Death State]

5 hours ago, tiredbum said:

Repairs are easy. Relaw though? Isn't that something only the RD's comp can do?

To upload new laws you'd need a Cyborg upload. That's on the bridge, although nothing stops a roboticist from just printing one via their circuit imprinter.

[Screenshot thread!]

I can't believe no one has posted this yet:

 

[SOP Suggestion: Departmental Tranverse]

1 minute ago, davidchan said:

I like the department lathes but the way the gear is divided doesn't always make sense. If miners want a telescopic shield and bluespace backpack, they need to go harass Security and Science to get them, and security rarely if ever gives combat gear to anyone even when they need it.

I don't think the goal of departmental lathes is to make it so everyone has absolutely anything they could ever want.  If we wanted to do that, we'd just give everyone autolathes that produce everything.  For things somewhat out of your department's specialization you need to go to another department.  But that's fine, departmental teamwork and all that. If there is an item a department really needs and consistently doesn't get it can just be added to their own autolathe. 

Under the current system no one gets anything unless they go through science, so even assuming there will sometimes be issues, it's still a vast improvement. 

[SOP Suggestion: Departmental Tranverse]

Departmental lathes would solve this problem.  Instead of the protolathe being one all in one machine to all the best stuff, each department gets it's own protolathe that can only print things relevant to their department. Each lathe would be locked to an ID of that department, so even if engineering builds a science protolathe it won't do them any good without a science ID. 

It has the added bonus of decentralizing power away from science.  Part of the reason departments do this is because sometimes getting science to actually give other departments stuff is pulling teeth.  Half of science is usually traitors and you're lucky if you can find someone who will be nice enough to actually man the RnD window and not just print all the best stuff for themselves and go wander off blow up monkeys or something.

[Cyborg Death State]

6 minutes ago, Calecute said:

Can't you just unsync the borgs from the AI and upload laws to them?

Yes, but you're lucky if you get a roboticist who even knows how to do basic repairs on borgs, let alone unsync and relaw them. 

[Major Cloning and Revivability PR up on Github]

1 hour ago, lizardzsi said:

In a roleplaying perspective, I think it is obvious that a clone is not the continuation of the previous person's conscious, but rather an exact copy: if you die, you die, and a clone won't bring you back, rather it gives a copy of you.

 

This isn't true at all, since ghosts exists in universe and there is tangible proof of it.  They can be seen with the camera obscura, they can interact with lights, wizards and cultists can talk to them, cultists can give them bodies to manifest in, you can use soul shards to capture a soul and repackage it... hell, your NT employment contract explictly states NT owns your soul and can be used to regain control it back from literal devils that grant you superpowers in exchange for selling it. The believe in an enduring spirit is not faith in the game world, but observable scientific fact. 

Okay, so how do we know this spirit moves body and a new spirit doesn't just inhabit the new body? If a new spirit was created, you'd be able to sell it to a devil every time you were cloned.  But you can't, in fact you can't even be cloned if you sell your spirit.  If a new spirit is made, why can't suicides be cloned? If a new spirit is made, why do you need the first person to die at all to clone them? You should be be able to make an unlimited amount of copies if nothing is stopping you. All of these only make sense if the same spirit endures and moves bodies. 

Even if you don't believe it's absolutely proven to be the case that the spirit moves from one body to another, at the very least there's a lot more evidence observable to our characters supporting the idea that it's true than supporting the idea that it's not.

 

[Major Cloning and Revivability PR up on Github]

Just removing SR without anything replacing it effectively means once a Slime person or Vox is out of defib range, they're dead forever.  Since Slimes already have a good chance to have their core killed by defibbing, it's kind of even worse for them.  It would be an incredibly massive nerf to these races, far bigger than simply increasing cloning times is to everyone else. 

SR could simply be made to not work on clonable races at all, which would solve the problem of it being weaponized as well as prevent a bunch of people from being gibbed after these changes go through, if they do. 

[Reach the highest number without an admin posting]

[Change of Heart]

Also remember that your neat traitor gadgets are a double-edged.... sword? Double edged e-sword? D-sword? Uh.  That traitor gadgets are both helpful and harmful.  Sometimes it's best to stash your stuff or just not buy it until you really need it.

[Reach the highest number without an admin posting]

 

[Reach the highest number without an admin posting]

 

[The Nerf that will break Nuke Ops]

I think both adrenals and d-sword is the problem, honestly.  In my perfect world, melee would be the king in tight spaces or from ambush, but ranged would be stronger in open areas.  Instead, you just pop adrenals and mindlessly charge everyone with a d-sword because you'll close the gap before they can react anyway and even if they do you're immune to all energy weapons and 75% of projectiles on top of having massive armor.  Even if they get a shot off, it probably won't connect. Even if it does, they're just going to be absolutely murdered a split second later.

D-sword is the SS13 equivalent of W + M1.  There is literally zero strategy, just run up and click spacemen until they go sideways. 

[Useless Pro Tips]

56 minutes ago, rapaskoti said:

here is a useless pro tip you can light someone else's cig if you aim for the mouth and have a lighter in your hand i'm pretty sure thats the case

 

That is indeed true! Sadly, it only works with actual lighters and not welding tools.

You can also light a cigarette off someone who is on fire.

[Useless Pro Tips]

You can hold a piece of paper up to a camera and the AI will receive a message about it and have the option to read it.  This works even if comms is offline, which is a good way to get the AI's attention when normal methods have failed.