Love-To-Hug
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Posts posted by Love-To-Hug
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New maintenance has bad design? That is subjective, but sure.
Old maintenance is better than new maintenance? That, I feel, ignores how clustered and cramped the old maintenance is, especially on high population rounds. I did not find any enjoyment navigating the 1-tile wide corridors.
The reasoning seems to imply that it would be easier to design an even newer maintenance on top of the old maintenance, but does the additional difficulty of working with what we have now justify having to be crammed back into the old maintenance for months while a replacement is being worked on?
I think this new 'randomized' maintenance being talked about is a terrific idea, but I'm of the opinion we should keep what we have now until it is ready.
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On 4/19/2017 at 5:38 PM, Agent_Che said:
Love its not that you DEFIED the HoS that mattered, its that you DISTRACTED the whole security during a very intense round which was wrong.
I am not sure why a non-admin is replying to an admin complaint marked as resolved, but I very much disagree with this philosophy as it essentially holds the way Security reacts to actions to a higher importance than the severity of the actions themselves.
Under the same logic you could argue a clown with space lube is self-antagging if Security spends a lot of time chasing him rather than dealing with more pressing matters.
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Shared department, imo. Here's what I'd do: Magistrate has priority on law. NT Rep has priority on SoP. Both can do terminations, but if one disagrees with a termination the HoS or Captain is the tiebreaker.
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I am curious why we don't just make all the stun stuff work like the disabler.
Turn all hybrid tasers into disablers, lower the fire rate, and make all the stunsticks require a double tap.
You'd probably see riot shotguns used WITHOUT changing the rounds to lethal if that happens.
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I love it. It'd be like autotraitor ragin' mages. Only problem is the jobs that have no chance of being traitor. Maybe if the protected roles had a very, very, very small chance of being traitor I could see this working.
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Just now, Wheatley29 said:
Such a situation forces antags to learn how to go around something. If I have four security borgs against me, then I will not sit at maint doors hoping that a random greytider goes in, instead I will instruct my thralls to lure individuals DEEP into maintenance where it will take security longer to respond should I be discovered. The issue with antag players currently is that they do not plan ahead, if I'm going to storm the bridge I will emag my escape route doors and ensure that I have an escape to space with a hardsuit ready whereas most players will just dive the bridge and hope for the best. Prep work is key to becoming a good antag, it's not all how fast you can push over that seccie chasing you. Another big part of it is creativity, if you do something unexpected it's much harder for security to react properly.
This doesn't address my argument at all.
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Just now, Wheatley29 said:
They allowed us to mass numbers, and one of these kills I literally just walked up to one of them they reacted to slow. We should not be hugboxing borgs because they destroy the unrobust. Infact, they even managed to grab the HoS which should prove that it's not as extreme as you are attempting to present it as.
I think the point is being missed to a great extent here.
There is a limit to the security force, and the amount of antagonists we have in a given round is meant to be tailored to that amount of Security*. It's part of the balance of the round.
The problem is borgs allow that limit to be surpassed to such a degree that, in that round for instance, there was essentially +50% more Security than there would normally be.
*(And, to reiterate, the HoP simply increasing the officer limit is not the same thing, as it requires additional equipment from cargo, an experienced HoP, coordination in command chat, and then waiting for players to take the slots and get up to speed. Whereas secborgs start with everything they need and have sometimes been lurking dchat so already have an idea of what's going on, and even if they try not to act on that info it's still a situation they are comfortable going into.)
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8 minutes ago, Wheatley29 said:
Can I point out that it was not a posse of secborgs that killed the majority of them, I killed two on my own.
I addressed that later on. The shadowlings remarked after the round that while you did indeed make the kills, the secborgs were fanned out to such a degree they were being whittled down and unable to find thrall targets without a secborg being dangerously nearby.
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A 3-5 limit is exceedingly high. That's still a 50% increase to the force.
I'm of the opinion they should be removed entirely, but a lot of people like them for aesthetic reasons, such as my friend Travelling Merchant... and I can sympathize with this.
In my opinion, 2 on high peak and 1 every other time would be reasonable.
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5 hours ago, Shadeykins said:
Completely irrelevant because borgs are terribly kneecapped and can't do even 50% of what a regular security officer can do. Here's some of the big ones for security in particular.
1) Borgs can't search people.
2) Borgs can't process people.
3) Borgs have no aux equipment to deal with large crowds (flashbangs, teargas, etc).
4) Borgs can't easily employ lethals from range.
uh... it's not irrelevant, and while they have weaknesses you are overlooking their strengths. they provide all access for themselves and any officers they are with. their flaws are hard to take advantage of in a big fight. They can spam the disabler. Generally the warden should be conducting searches and processing. And they can deal with a crowd just fine with their stunbaton energy tied to their batteries.
The only good point here is the lack of lethals from range, but given they can make it far easier for accompanying officers to use theirs and their durability in the face of other station threats, it's not really that big of a deal.
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Just now, ZN23X said:
It's not that hard to increase job slots in terms of people who spawn at arrivals...I just don't think many HOPs know well enough to do it. For any job it's alot less time and effort for the HOP to increase slots than it is for them to give people jobs who are waiting in line.
It requires coordination with both the HoS and the Captain and a competent cargo that can get the orders properly delivered. It is also considered a faux pas to do unless on at least blue with the security forces feeling strained.
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4 minutes ago, ZN23X said:
In my experience HOPs rarely increase the number of sec slots unless the server population is massive and even then, most of the time they don't.
You can bet they would though if it wasn't such a pain (by design) to support a greater force.
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1 minute ago, Doukan said:
A recent trend I've seen is the outright refusal of command to hire any new sec "because they can't be properly vetted" because they might be antags and we can't have that. Sec horde is a thing of the past.
I was referring to the HoP's ability to increase security slots.
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The main reason it works like this is to make it harder for the security force to be increased as that has a major impact on the balance of game rounds.
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6 hours ago, Shadeykins said:
Well this is silly. Last I checked the shadowling ice-vein ability actually applied a short-term stun to borgs.
If you have so many thralls as to warrant ten security borgs a romp through maintenance, you have enough thralls for one of them to grab the RD's ID and blow the borgs... Or enough to make an EMP, or enough to hand out flashes, or enough to grab the ion rifle.
Need I continue?
This doesn't address the main point of secborgs not being accounted for in the current meta of Security vs Antags. A 50% increase of the security force is immense.
HoPs being able to increase the slots does not take into account the additional equipment and coordination required to make that happen, not to mention it being considered a Faux pas to do so before necessary.
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I don't think the emag is meant to be stealthy, unless you mean like an upgraded emag or something. I always interpreted it as a NT ID card that's been reverse engineered and has a bunch of components to it that don't even really fit in the card anymore.
But yes I agree with the overall sentiment.
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7 hours ago, necaladun said:
I am shocked, just utterly shocked, that no one has yet said "Im ded pls nerf".
We won't be outright removing sec borgs. That's just silly. Don't be silly.
That may be due to the fact I wasn't a shadowling. I, instead, felt very disappointed a very exciting round turned into a bit of a wet fart due to secborg involvement.
I don't see why the idea of removing secborgs is silly when other servers have felt it had a positive impact. Controversial, of course, but silly? That's just silly.
12 minutes ago, Lightnn_Starky said:Noice bait, wait... not actually, it was legitimate criticism to your comportament, i did also mean no offense with that post, its just.... like @necaladun just said, i ded pls nerf.
SALT
I was not even an antag that round. Trying to rile people up by getting under their skin is what I meant by 'bait', and it's what you are still doing.
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5 hours ago, Lightnn_Starky said:
Ive observed from your past suggestions @Love-To-Hug that you only accept what is deemed "adequate" to yourself, that is proved by threads like the ERT one, the "github is a mess and on.. regarding this thread itself, borg is a fairly decent and popular role that doesn't need much change, even less being removed.
This is bait.
20 minutes ago, Tayswift said:Just to be clear, in this round, one of the sec borgs killed two shadowlings, 1v1, as it and the AI boasted several times. Borgs usually don't beat slings in solo combat. This round was just a matter of inexperienced shadowlings, not overpowered borgs. You really shouldn't use a sample size of 1 to push for huge things like removing all sec borgs.
It's not like I just started playing on the server yesterday? Secborgs have always been quite powerful, but the balance dynamic has changed pretty significantly since we became a high-pop server. No longer is Security constantly understaffed at high peak, now they are fully staffed and the small army of borgs makes them a significantly stronger department, and the gametypes don't take a potentially 50% more populated Security dept into consideration.
As for the round in question, while there was a secborg in particular that killed the shadowlings, from what I learned from the post-round chat they were being whittled down and had no room to breathe. It was not like the secborg marched in on someone who'd never played the game before, they were overwhelmed and were weakened from past encounters.
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1 hour ago, Happy Tim said:
I think that with current balance, removing secborgs completely would create a batch of brand new problems, connected to other antags, that we aren't discussing here ATM.
Thing is, other servers have tried it, and have found the change to be worth keeping. So it's not like there isn't any precedent.
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Obviously make them unable to get usable blood from humanized monkies.
Make blood-sucking a power, and make it more obvious. Perhaps make it resemble what it would look like if both the vampire and the victim initiated a grab on each other, as that would be rather distinct.
Make the blood-sucking automatically stop when the blood threshold is about to reach an unsafe level, requiring a re-activation of the power to continue draining, which will kill.
Institute the 'Vampire: The Masquerade' style mechanic where the victim has no memory of the attack. Big, big font while the draining is happening stating their in-character expectation while their voice is lowered to a whisper.
Alternatively, a way to easily mask their identity that can be toggled on and off.
An alternative to thralling that can be used on mindshielded targets that simply makes them unwilling to take hostile action against the vampire, perhaps due to supernatural fear.
Lower blood cost on thralling.
Choosing what powers you get!! Again, VtM would make for great inspiration.
Holy Water no longer does damage or suppresses powers, and instead drains usable blood. (Makes vampires more reasonable to imprison)
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Security Officers don't spawn with even half of all the gear they need, so that there can be more slots isn't really that valid. A lot of prepwork has to be done to support a larger force. Shipments, deliveries, an experienced HoP, and some coordination within command are all required.
Secborgs start with everything they need and are even spaceworthy.
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I feel like the power of these things is being significantly downplayed. Even with the weaknesses you describe they're much harder to take down than a standard sec officer, and they don't take up any Security slots, which means it's just a net gain to have them. Furthermore all of Security benefits from their ability to open doors, making stings that much more effective.
Very difficult to balance around that.
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4 minutes ago, Anticept said:
It's piss easy to stop a secborg. Just flash it.
A mob of them I can see being a problem, but so would a mob of lethal armed security.
That said, people need to practice running more often too. That includes flashing a secborg and just getting the hell out. People don't need to try and kill everything they run across... sometimes it's better to just disarm/disable and RUN.
One part I am in agreement with: greatly increasing the heating on the disabler. Even without rapid disabler cooldown, it's still pretty spammy.
Run where? Borgs have access to every major area by default and, more importantly, are spaceworthy.
Most of the strategies you folks are describing are for traitor rounds, but we have several gametypes. Borgs are quite exceedingly powerful in ling and vamp rounds as well.
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The fact they aren't 'real' Security is an issue, yes. As long as they're acting within their lawset they don't need to adhere to SoP. The most you can hope for is the AI to discipline them but the AI is generally so overworked that they have precious little time to try and play HoS to their Secborgs.
Maintenance Randomisation Project
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