Vivalas
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Posts posted by Vivalas
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On 6/12/2018 at 12:01 AM, Shadeykins said:
The greater good of the station should be considered when sentencing. If someone breaks into the AI Core to destroy a malfunctioning AI, there is no need to charge them. The intent of Space Law is to protect the station and the crew, not to hinder them.Prisoners are incapable of committing crimes while imprisoned if you process them correctly. There is legitimately no way out of a cell if they've been processed correctly. Self-harm is not a crime. Adding even more modifiers/clauses to Space Law is the opposite of what this revamp is trying to achieve.
These two statements are a bit wrong, I think. Unless it got changed, prisoners can get out of their cell by banging their shoes / PDA on a light, then using that to break out. When I made a PR to correct this, I was told it was knee-jerk hugbox, despite it being the ire of security players, and that having ways to break out even when correctly processed is intentional. This theme comes up on nearly all security remap PRs as well. So that's conflicting views from administration. Which is it, prisoners should be able to break out or not?
The quote, I think, will never be interpreted in that manner. Even while sentencing as a magistrate people lawyer the hell out of everything. Unless there is an explicit clause saying sentencing can be taken to the extreme in edge cases, it will probably never be seen as a legitimate thing. Something like the admin Rule 0 would be nice, security can dramatically alter sentencing but anyone can / security must appeal it to CC. Give the magistrate fax a little more meaning, especially since the fax for execution was removed.
Mechanically, there are some errors with the quick reference charts. Robbery is 207 on the charts but 209 on the main list, and 209 is blank on the charts. There might be more, so it should be looked at more closely.
I also thing there should be some clarification regarding robbery and theft. Since they now seem to share the same code (at least in the quick reference), does robbery apply to stealing a weapon from an officer and theft to stealing from say, the armory? There was a case once where an officer tried to charge someone with both robbery AND theft for stealing their tazer, and so some clarification there is perhaps needed.
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Bumping this, since absolutely nothing has changed in regards to shadowling balance so far, as much as I can tell, and I just had the displeasure of playing through another shadowling round.
Now, I enjoyed it more than usual because security went murderbone earlier, which made it more interesting and heightened the chances of actually beating the slings, given that dethralling people is still a huge pain (and I think still a major headache even with the current PR). I don't want to sound knee-jerky but according to the community poll there are significant concerns about shadowling balance and we haven't taken any steps yet.
I think from what I gathered in this thread the following would be acceptable:
1. Causing damage to shadowlings to be propagated among thralls. As mentioned earlier this allows attrition to help slow down the slings.
2. Making thralling permanent. Conversion gamemodes can be ass because of the fact that people get attached to their sides and get salty when they get converted. Now, this could mostly be chalked off as a player issue, and I'll admit sometimes when I'm thralled I'll just go sit in the bar and drink until the round ends, but I think the gamemode would be improved if deconversion was just removed completely. This accomplishes: 1) Giving security a fighting chance. Usually they only start murderboning when it is too late. 2) Prevents people from getting rethralled or people running into maint to begin with because they want to be thralled. If it turns out the slings are bad / incompetent, there is no going back, which adds a small amount of personal investment.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add? Can we reach any sort of consensus about what will make this gamemode better? I'm going to keep pushing for action here because, again, I love paradise and all other antags / gamemodes, but everytime a sling round comes up I just want to cryo, and I think there might be shared resentment. If consensus can't be reached I think a better course of action is to remove the gamemode from rotation entirely for a complete rework.
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I was going to just PR this but it probably could use formal discussion.
I think magistrate should start with announcement access. While he is not a member of command, he is nonetheless an important crew figure and probably could use it more than a few of the heads.
It's useful for issuing clarifications on laws and when the magistrate needs everyone to hear something important, like reminding security for the umpteenth time not to bring vampires to the chapel, or announcing trials.
Some other people might disagree and claim powercreep, though, so I am making this threat to hear all sides.
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I would prefer we handle shadowling rebalance in one singular PR with a mixture of tweaks most people can agree with, not a bunch of singular nerf PRs that give people the impression of trying to run shadowling completely into the ground.
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Sounds cool but I agree that this would have negative effects in terms of powergaming and less cooperation among departments.
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Liking this discussion, Norwest and Moxie have great points.
Are there any objections to removing the round-end trigger when all slings die? Unlike nuke and wizard which involve forcing or requiring complete disregard of regulations (e.g. giving guns to everyone) to beat the antags, sling generally only causes about as much chaos as a typical stealth antag.
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I mean, I think police patrol hotspots of crime more than they would calmer neighborhoods. It makes sense ICly for security to patrol maint. A secluded area where there are no cameras and where you are far from the public areas of the station is the perfect place to commit crimes and for criminals and murderers to lurk.
Added: The reason security exists in the first place is because somebody at Nanotrasen decided that their expensive research station needed protecting, which means they anticipated some sort of external threat to the station beyond just crew members acting up. Police exist to deter and prevent crime, as do security. They wouldn't exist at all if there wasn't some IC expectation of funny business happening on NT stations.
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Alright, I think this might not be so hard to balance, here is what I have pieced together from this thread:
1. Either make thralling permanent or create immunity afterwards. I actually feel the second one would make slings underpowered since now you have crew you have to fight who can only be killed and of are no use to you.
2. Leave ascension. If the gamemode is made difficult enough it is a worthy reward.
3. Don't cause killing all slings to end the round. I don't think it's enough of a "high intensity" gamemode to do this like nuke or wizard.
Really this is only one balance change though and I don't think it gets to the heart of why they shadowling is uninteresting currently. Are there any issues or comments on specific shadowling powers or mechanics that need looking at? I still think spreading damage out among thralls would also help balance it a bit. Slings themselves become more robust as the cost of the utility of the thralls, and in extreme cases even outright killing your thralls.
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That's not the main issue I have with it, other than the idea of having such a rewarding "gold star" given to a player who... really hasn't exerted that much effort to get where they have gotten. War ops with 100 players is a lot more difficult, and if they win, which they almost never do, they just get a little cutscene played.
Compared to all other endings it just lacks luster. The other issue I forgot was how the round just ends when all the lings die. I don't think slings causes enough chaos to justify that,.
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Cult is still interesting for other players though. It's not a singular entity that kills everyone because they can, it's an NPC that floats around and turns people into little minions that go and grab other people to turn into minions.
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Okay, shadowling is the worst thing about paradise currently. It has a bunch of major flaws and I literally just want to cryo whenever there is a shadowling round. Here are some of the issues with it:
1. Over 90% winrate. I mean, really. It has to be way up there. It's above 70% at least. Unless security and command are hot shit and botany gets shrooms growing right away, it almost ends in a shadowling victory. Are there actual stats pertaining to shadowling winrate?
2. Endings are boring. The easiest gamemode in rotation should not have the best reward for the antagonists. Getting to become a god and be a dick to literally everyone you don't like is kinda dumb, and this could be improved.
3. It is way too easy to convert people, and some people just go back to maintenance right after they are deconverted. Likewise, deconversion is a painstakingly lengthy process during which you are almost always going to be jumped by the shadowlings. In comparison to cult, where you must first be dragged back to the cult base, shadowling conversion is on the spot and very quick. Unlike cult where you can deconvert with holy water, you must also perform surgery.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss making shadowling a polished and interesting gamemode rather than the turd it is now. The premise is really cool: night creatures that thrive in the darkness and enslave people's minds. The execution is bad.
My suggestion is this:
1. Make thralls permanent. This would mean becoming a thrall (or being thralled) is a significant event in your round, only escapable through death. This would encourage people not to become a thrall unless they are really into it, and also stops people who want to become thrall from being thrall again right after being converted. This would also allow security to fight back against the thralls much more effectively, since they would be able to kill them on sight. In exchange, thralls no longer are visible from their facial features. They would have to be specifically tested if suspected of thralldom. Perhaps with an advanced medical scanner. Currently security is very handicapped in fighting back against lings. It is hard to find a competent surgeon, and if you are deep in maint, it is even harder to get out with the thrall and not get thralled yourself.
2. Make thralls actually act like the description suggests. When a shadowling takes damage, make it so that a certain portion of the damage is divided among thralls. This would scale with the number of thralls. For example: staring at 5%, maybe 5% more damage gets divided among each thrall, up to a maximum of 80%. This serves as a way to, again, discourage people seeking thrall unless they are deadset on it. Even though players shouldn't seek to be thrall at all, this would discourage the metagamers at least until they think the thralls are competent and they won't just be throwing their lives away.
4. Remove ascension. Becoming a literal ascended shitter is fun for nobody but the thrall. No other gamemode gives you the same amount of room to just be a dick to everyone. Sometimes shadowlings are even dicks to their own thralls after being ascended. While I don't want to seem like this one is out of salt (although it somewhat is, although I think others have similar sentiments), in a recent example I was a thralled roboticist helping rescue thralls in an odysseus. The ascended ling then proceeds to destroy my mech and then kill me when I call him an idiot for doing that.
5. Replace ascension with a series of related powers that unlock with more and more thralls. At high amounts of thralls, you might unlock a death ray or insta-thrall beam similar to what ascended lings have now (but you still have to actually hit with it), but they never become invincible. The idea is shadowlings become more and more powerful but never actually invincible. As lings get more thralls, not only is damage reduced tremendously as thralls take the brunt of it, but they unlock powers that make them more and more dangerous. I think this is more interesting for all involved than the current ending, but still rewards lings for good work.
6. Add objectives. Like other antagonists, instead of just ascending, lings get objectives. These would need to be very difficult objectives, that are generally only possible if the thralls are super-powered. Perhaps the current form of ascension could be an objective thralls get on occasion where they have to summon their god or merge all their thralls and lings together into one ascended shadowling, which performs as it currently does.
My idea is to generally to make thralls more of an eldritch beast type thing. As it prowls maint and collects more thralls, it gets more powerful and harder to kill. Instead of just becoming outright invincible at a certain point, it just gets more and more robust. Added on to this, they also get objectives which can then be worked towards as a team with all the thralls. I think this is better than what we currently have because it cuts down on some main issues thralls have, mainly boring endings and easy conversion / difficult deconversion.
Anyways this is just my idea. Any other suggestions are welcome. Anything is better than the current implementation of shadowlings, including removing them altogether.
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Just want to chime in that the notion of Hitler being literally the most evil person in existence while nobody cares at all about any form endearment for Stalin or Mao is perhaps one of the most glaring inconsistencies of modern society and one of my biggest peeves.
After reading Lenin's Tomb (a very good book about reform / collapse of the USSR), I think Stalin is a million times worse in all capacities than Hitler. Compared to Stalin, Hitler is nothing. The purges were way worse, way more evil, and so much more random than the Holocaust.
And before you call me a neo-Nazi, no, I don't think the Holocaust is okay in any regards. I just think the fact that people can openly express allegiance to Mao / Stalin and the "good" of their regimes and be only chuckled at, while people are imprisoned for making jokes about Hitler and Nazis.... is just so glaringly stupid, for lack of a better word.
The notion that it is okay to imprison people for "hate crimes" in the first place is absurd. The name of "hate crime" is already paradoxical in a legal context. How do you intend to prove that a suspect, say, hates a particular group of people due to an action they performed, while they could have done it for other reasons, say comedy. Conversely, how do you intend to prove without reasonable doubt that a suspect does not hate a group of people because of an action they performed. And further more even if you can bring forth circumstantial evidence that proves a suspect has "hatred" towards a group of people (say, for example, they possess a Mein Kampf and other Nazi paraphernalia), why is such a thing illegal to begin with? Why are you not allowed to have your own opinions and beliefs if you are not harming anyone? It's right up there in stupidity with the ideas of prohibiting substances such as drugs and alcohol. "Hate crimes" are just an extension of the State's natural desire to suppress free thought. Totalitarian tendencies are ever-present in even the most gleaming and happy of democratic utopias. If you allow the state to define what is okay and not okay to hate, you are allowing them to define, by extension, what it is okay and not okay to think, which is very frightening.
And people wonder why a significant percentage of Americans are adverse to the idea of gun control.... (don't want to open that bag of worms, mind you, although I feel like this thread would have gone that path anyways eventually.)
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Yeah there is no player input for diagonal movement, things can move diagonally fine though. It could be made so holding a certain direction while cablewalking figures out diagonals automatically, or we could just port diagonal movement. (or just allow diagonal input when in cables)
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Want to point out that lorewise I think the NAD is needed in nukeops because the nuke is stolen from NT, so that could be similar here, where it is a stolen blob specimen... but then the name nuclear authentication disk doesn't make much sense... ah well whatever, just a minor detail.
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Would kinda be cool if they "ventcrawled" through power cables rather than "bloodcrawling". Maybe with its own little crackling sound too, like pipe sounds. APCs would act as exit "vents".
This could even be expanded a little where they naturally get pulled towards power generation sources in the grid, which instantly kills them or something, so they're always fighting upstream and reaching areas away from engineering is hard.
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On 9/11/2017 at 9:33 AM, Saul Argon said:
Currently, nobody can access SoP or Space Law without permission of @TullyBBurnalot.
Your first example is valid as far as I can see, thank you for reporting it. The second one I believe is fine, SoP and Space Law is written in such a way that we assume that the person reading it understands the spirit of the rule, in this scenario wherever possible IAA's should perform both prosecution and defence, but if for example only one IAA is present a security member is to perform prosecution.
As far as the second example, I still think there should not be a conflict, even though I'm just gonna do what I interpret as the correct interpretation every time.
And yeah Tully is in charge of this but I've pinged him a few times on Discord and he's always sleep deprived so I figure someone else could handle it.
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Alright, upon close examination of space law and Legal Standard Operating Procedure, there are two inconsistencies within them, that is, multiple conflicting statements about what to do in certain situations.
I will list them both here.
1. Repeat Offender example vs. definition
The definition for repeat offender states:
QuoteFor each successive Repeated Incidence, an extra five minutes is added to the sentence. If the added time exceeds the original sentence, the crime should be considered one Level above (ie, Medium Crimes become Major Crimes), and the sentence adjusted. Major Crimes with 15 extra minutes added via this modifier should be considered Capital Crimes, but not punishable by Execution or forced Cyborgization.
The example, however, states:
QuoteExample: Person A is brigged for Assault, for 10 minutes. Person A then gets brigged for Vandalism, for 5 minutes. Person A then gets brigged for Assault and Possession of a Weapon, for 30 minutes (10 for Assault, 10 for Possession of a Weapon, 10 due to Repeat Offender). Person A then gets brigged for Assault on an Officer, for 35 minutes (15+20). Person A then gets brigged for Possession of a Restricted Weapon and Assault on an Officer, for 60 minutes (15 for Possession of a Restricted Weapon, 15 for Assault on an Officer, 30 due to Repeat Offender), bringing the sentence to Permabrig Status.
In the example the second brigging for assault gives them 10 minutes from the Repeat Offender clause. However, this wasn't the third brigging for assault, and the definition states to only add 5 minutes per successive offense.
2. Trial SOP as defined by LSOP
This one is pretty minor, but could be called out by people who just want to cause issues.
The big inconsistency here is that one part of Trial SOP states that if both IAA are present, they should be used for Defense AND Prosecution, at least implicitly.
Quote2) Decide who Prosecution and Defense are. If there are two Internal Affairs Agents/Lawyers/Public Defenders aboard the station, this becomes simple
While further down, it says this:
Quote2) Internal Affairs Agents as the Defense. If no Internal Affairs Agents are available, the Defendant may choose to either represent themselves, or choose someone from the crew to represent them. Security personnel should be picked to form the Prosecution if possible.
The difference is highlighted. Basically, one line says to use IA for prosecution, while the other says to use security. The latter makes more sense and is what I would default to anyways in a trial, but it is still an inconsistency nonetheless.
Anyways, just some issue I found in our somewhat complex virtual criminal justice system. Mainly this thread is for admin input so I can fix the inconsistencies without being yelled at.
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Since I've gotten magistrate, I've enjoyed the job but also not understood the IA oversight. At best I think the relationship between the two exists because those two offices ended up near each other, and that most of the volume of their work is a byproduct of security's work.
Legal / IA even with the recent reforms and whatnot is still nebulous and a bit misleading, while we've tightened regulations and guidelines for things like chef, which really don't need any. A bit silly I think.
A good legal reform, in my opinion, is to add a proper lawyer-esque job, designed to be able to help magistrate deter shitcurity while not become a greytide enabler, and put that under the magistrate, then shift IA oversight to NT rep. At least then the two "minion" jobs have a boss who actually deals in the same field as their subordinated, even if their scope is vastly different (e.g. IA vs NT Rep)
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I've never understood why public defender / lawyer are a thing and why people want them to stay. It's just not necessary for those titles to exist if the actual job is still just IA. Would I like a lawyer job with perhaps some legal powers? Sure, would be cool. But there is no reason for IAA to be called lawyers, it just causes problems regardless of any player issues.
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Dragging people in circles while bashing their heads in with a fire extingusher was always cheesy but at the same time, while I appreciate the merit of nerfs to both security and antags, I feel like making it take longer to drag people to the brig would make it easier for the greytide to run off with their metabuddies and make security even more stressful.
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Little beeps and boops for pressing buttons on computers would be nice, huge atmospheric change from CM that I love.
Sounds for putting things on tables or dropping things on the floor.
If we're going for general immersion / atmospheric improvements I have to submit the idea of not being able to write on paper in your hand as well as items being knocked around when you drop them.
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It could probably work if they had no access, and at most maybe a flash and cuffs, and were forced to shadow full officers on patrol to learn the job.
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I must say that while meta knowledge being relied on by security is unfortunate, most of the time it is required to be able to deal with antags effectively before they just start steamrolling everything. I try to restrain my meta and let traitors go at round-start obviously, since it means more fun for myself and everyone else if they actually get a chance to start antagonizing, but for gamemodes such as shadowling, well, sometimes you're doomed from the start unless you don't start reacting from the start. Conversion modes in general are problematic since it results in people sometimes getting really salty at security and just getting converted again, making it almost impossible to fight.
As for reputations, well, if you don't want a reputation, just change your name. If you do want a reputation, such as Ares, who is known for being a robust badass, well, if I'm patrolling maint alone and see him walking up to me, I'm turning around, and if he keeps following me, my tazer boner is getting strong. Security is probably the most ruthless job on the station when it comes to balancing being nice and balancing being alive, sometimes you just have to do the unpopular thing to keep the station in one piece, restore order, and stay alive.
Note that in general, if anyone comes towards me in maint without talking, and I'm alone, I'm getting ready to taze them, especially in a world of stun prods and cable cuffs. You're as good as dead if they get your headset and sensors off. I generally take a ruthless approach with searches as well on certain gamemodes, especially cult, because of the prevalence of items such as the stun talisman. At worst I'll cuff them, tell them it's for the safety of both of us, search em, give em a hug and be on my way.
We all know shitcurity is a thing, and there are times when security is indeed shit. But people are far too harsh when security is meaning well but literally everyone is out to kill them, the crew, the greytide, and the antags, all at once. Sometimes things get desperate.
I think a mandatory "Security Cadet" title for the first one or two rounds someone plays security would be neat. Maybe for other jobs too, since, even when you unlock the job after 8 hours, you still don't know what you're doing. Then again it would amplify the cries of "SHITCURITY" as cadets would take so much shit even when doing legitimate arrests and it might make the whole problem worse.
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I currently planning a "legal network" system with associated terminals around the station, mostly security, for the purposes of helping IA track complaints and issues from crew and prisoners. The system I have envisioned is somewhat like the admin ticket system, where you can open tickets, have someone assigned, and resolve it etc, all with feedback to the end user (the complainee).
The way it would work is "legal kiosks" would be around the station in key places. One in each brig cell and perma, and one in lockers, dorms, and bar.
From the kiosk crew are able to submit formal complaints to the network, for a nominal 100cr legal fee (configurable by "network admins", which will be touched on). The idea of this is to deter repeated posts and spamming, as well as to generate a little money for the legal department, as well as just for fluff. (lawyers expensive yo). An additional spam safeguard will be a blacklist that troublesome crew can be added to (e.g. that one assistant in the brig who keeps spamming "HALP SHITCURITY IN THE BRIG") that automatically denies their tickets.
Once submitted, all legal terminals will beep and notify of the new ticket, from where qualified personnel can respond to the ticket. Qualified personnel are able to claim, resolve, and comment on tickets. The complainee will get PDA notifications of their ticket status to stay informed. Note that to not remove the face-to-face interview part of complaints and investigation, comments are only one way and the complainee is not able to comment or reply to comments on their ticket.
Qualified personnel are given a "legal rank" in regards to their access, and this influences the actions they are able to take. Personnel of lower legal rank, for example, wouldn't be able to claim tickets claimed by people of higher rank, or change settings if someone of higher rank locks them to their rank (by default settings would be locked to IA level, so IA can still manage the ticket system in the absense of a magistrate, but the magistrate would be able to lock settings to their level if they wish). Current ranks I have planned are "bystander" (for warden / HoS who would have terminals in their offices but only to spectate, not comment, claim, resolve or any of that or change settings). "legal representative", such as IA, who are able to do standard things. And "administrator" which is given to the captain. Magistrate has a special "magistrate" rank which goes above the captain due to the legal order.
Tickets would have a "category" that influences who can handle them and helps for sorting / distribution of labor. Categories can include things such as, SOP Infraction, General Complaint, Lost Property, Appeal, False Sentencing, Excessive Force, etc. The ticket system is designed to handle general complaints among crew and departments instead of just complaints against security. Appeals, for example, would be locked to magistrate or captain access, and notify both officials, while general complaints would probably be left to IA. Additionally, entire departments could be chosen as a target in the ticket, in which case, even for regular general complaints, the captain would be notified. PDA notifications would be togglable in settings for certain people as to their preferences, such as if the captain doesn't care for complaints or is tired of getting spammed by them.
After tickets are processed they have to be resolved, and their will be multiple close options. "Close" is the general option, but additional options can exist, such as "close and refund", or "close and blacklist", etc.
General feedback, suggestions, or criticism of this proposed system is appreciated, but in general I think it would help the flow of the legal team and help complaints be more obvious and concrete.
Space Law Feedback/Discussion
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This isn't the same as correct processing though. It's active deterrent required by security, which was the argument of the original conversation involving this. You *can* get out of a cell on your own if you aren't watched / security is busy even when correctly processed.