Saaesculus Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Admin Key: Kluys Complaint: The incident proceeds like this. Kluys is the HoP. I am the janitor. I proceed to screwdriver, then multitool a single wire on the door that leads to the crew transfer shuttle's cockpit. The door opens. Somehow. I have no idea how, and further investigation requires access to logs, which I lack, or to look into the code to see if pulsing a certain wire can make that sort of door open. Okay. I run up to the cockpit. And do nothing. I just sit there, in the comfy chair. Because it is a comfy chair. Cripty, played by Kluys, immediately begins shooting me with their taser. I just say "Rude", and get knocked out. I get shot four more times by the taser. Upon waking, I attempt to disarm Kluys, but am just tased again. I am then stripped of literally everything that is on me by Cripty, including shoes and headset. A mech enters the shuttle, squeezing the engineer, Cole. This isn't particularly important. Cripty yells loudly for the mech to drill me, which is a lethal act, the mech drill is a weapon, shouldn't fuckin' happen, etc etc. Up until then, none of this is particularly important. There's some faffing about with the mech, where the mech does some stuff. I have not requested the mech's assistance, it was entirely up to the mech, and honestly, the mech's actions were detrimental to my experience. But I am not in control of those. I am however blamed for it later on, and the mech's actions stated as a reason that my death was justified. I am a little enraged at this point. And Cripty has put their taser away, so I am no longer able to disarm them. To quote rule 4: "When provoked into extreme anger a punch or two may be realistic but Nanotrasen doesn't hire people who bludgeon someone to death with a crowbar when angry or bored." This is, for me, both IC and OOC, a situation where I'm pretty damn pissed, so I am forced to just go fire extinguisher to face, which I do upon waking up. Admittedly, this is not a great choice. I get two or three hits in before the following happens. Someone goes to the cockpit and shoots me with an energy gun, which I believe to be in violation of rule #4, avoiding excessive violence. It is still unclear to me exactly who that person is. The person shoots me to death with the lasers, and I am only able to get a single hit with the fire extinguisher in before I enter paincrit and die. Previously, I had believed that that person was an antagonist who was completing his objectives, so I had neglected to adminhelp it. I was unsure at the time. There proceeds to be a bit of shuttle chaos, involving an antag, and the mech ends up destroyed. The mech's pilot escapes unharmed, and turns out to be a changeling. I have a conversation with Kluys after the round, in the next round, in admin PMs. I will not disclose the contents of the conversation publicly, however I will state that the conversation is the reason for the complaint. I will however post the conversation in OOC that happened pre-round. OOC: Kluys: jesus christ i snapped there OOC: SAAesculus: I would like to thank the NT rec for stunlocking me and stripping me of literally everything in the shuttle bridge for the crime of Being There OOC: SAAesculus: Seriously go away forever. OOC: Kluys: saa that was the hop and that was me and i was looking for a damn screwdriver because you messed up the door OOC: Kluys: you then proceeded to beat me with a fire extinguisher OOC: Kluys: after which you THEN proceeded to be sort of dead OOC: Kluys: first three shots to get you down for breaking into a secure area, the second two shots were lost when you and the ripley started attacking OOC: SAAesculus: yes also stripping literally everything is the Best Way to obtain 1x Screwdriver, screw things like Just take pockets and backpack OOC: Kluys: you were dangerous and clearly capable of breaking in and out of shit very fast OOC: SAAesculus: No sir stripping everything is the best fucking thing and so is multiple taser shots to the point beyond unconciousness and screaming while being unconcious can you just go away forever? OOC: M3hillus: kluys, the reason I attacked you was returing an IC favor OOC: SAAesculus: er, no, I didn't do shit OOC: Kluys: i would have thrown you naked into the brig OOC: SAAesculus: the door opened by itself OOC: Kluys: yes you did you hacked through the door OOC: Kluys: it didnt OOC: SAAesculus: no OOC: SAAesculus: what the fuck OOC: SAAesculus: you're making blind accusations OOC: Kluys: it clearly didnt it had its panel screwed open OOC: SAAesculus: what the fuck it did OOC: SAAesculus: you're making shit up OOC: Mijhead: I think it would be a better idea to bring this to the fora now. OOC: Kluys: yea im also willing to do it over the ahelp thingy OOC: SAAesculus: okay let's do that OOC: Kluys: not here though, round started In the conversation, Kluys justifies his actions, I justify mine, and kluys states that the actions of the energy gun person whose identity I am unsure of, who I will now be referring to as the egun person, were justified. I dispute this, stating that the egun person flatout killed me with the laser function, when the energy gun does have a stun function, and the egun person was more than capable of stunning me nonlethally with the stun function. I will quote rule #4: If you think murder or extreme violence is justified in response to someone's actions, then admin help for permission. Even if it is justified in an RP context, without admin permission it is not allowable. Lethal force should always be a last resort, even for security. Remember as well that what the admins will permit and what security will arrest you for a two completely different things. Kluys states that this is not an issue that Kluys would bother to fix. In this issue I believe that Kluys may have a personal bias in this matter, as he was directly involved in the incident, and may be biased from his experiences and actions in this incident. The reason for this complaint is that I do not believe that the administration should be biased in such a manner, and refuse to fix issues because of personal stakes in the matter. I have posted this because I would like to escalate this matter to an unbiased second opinion, because frankly, I am not satisfied with the way it was handled prior by Kluys, and the admin PMs conversation left a sour taste, so to speak. There was one other administrator online at the time, Fox P McCloud. Fox was playing in the round where this happened as the bartender, and was doing admin testing of stuff in the round where me and Kluys had the conversation in admin PMs. i just want to be able to fix my sleep schedule this post took half an hour to write i'll probably wake up at like 11am tomorrow at least it'll be saturday so i won't have to care too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kluys Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Right first the logs [13:18:53]ATTACK: Cripty (kluys) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the stun beam ATTACK: Cripty (kluys) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the stun beam SAY: Thet Raytor/SAAesculus : Jerk. ATTACK: Cripty (kluys) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the stun beam ATTACK: Cripty (kluys) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the stun beam ATTACK: Cripty (kluys) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the stun beam ATTACK: Cripty (kluys) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the stun beam EMOTE: Thet Raytor/SAAesculus :Thet Raytor screams! ATTACK: Cripty (kluys) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the stun beam (i remember stopping when i got the message that you slumped and were unable to keep fighting so that probably happened here) I will skip a bit ahead here, things are that you got stripped but that doesnt show in the logs and that you tried disarming me after which you got shot two more times with the taser then the ripley came in and used its equipment on me harming me (this also doesnt show up in the logs sadly the scream does however which is where i will start again) EMOTE: Cripty/Kluys : Cripty screams! SAY: Cripty/Kluys : DUDE ATTACK: Thet Raytor(saaesculus) disarmed Cripty(kluys) ATTACK: Thet Raytor(saaesculus) disarmed Cripty(kluys) SAY: Cripty/Kluys : HE BROKE IN! SAY: Cripty/Kluys : HE BROKE IN! EMOTE: Thet Raytor/SAAesculus :is having trouble keeping their eyes open. ATTACK: Thet Raytor(saaesculus) disarmed Cripty(kluys) ATTACK: Thet Raytor(saaesculus) shaked Thet Raytor(saaesculus) ATTACK: Thet Raytor(saaesculus) shaked Thet Raytor(saaesculus) SAY: Cripty/Kluys : DRILL HIM SAY: Cripty/Kluys : You FUCKING IDIOT ATTACK: Primmy Moore (prinnian) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the laser ATTACK: Primmy Moore (prinnian) shot Thet Raytor (saaesculus) with a the laser EMOTE: Primmy Moore/Prinnian : screams! ATTACK: Unknown(saaesculus) attacked Cripty(kluys) with fire extinguisher ATTACK: Unknown(saaesculus) attacked Cripty(kluys) with fire extinguisher ATTACK: Unknown(saaesculus) attacked Cripty(kluys) with fire extinguisher ATTACK: Unknown(saaesculus) attacked Primmy Moore(prinnian) with fire extinguisher ATTACK: Cripty(kluys) punched Unknown(saaesculus) What follows after this is a bit of a clusterfuck consisting of other things happening as well as you getting shot with lasers and hit by me I know this could be seen as excessive but like I said you have to place yourself in the position of the other person. A head was being attacked by a guy wielding a fire extinguisher and a ripley and someone saw this and took action. It was an escalated situation and due too it being such a clusterfuck there really isn't much I or anyone else can do because noone is necessarily entirely wrong in their actions, they all have reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saaesculus Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 Now that the logs are available, I see now that I was initially being shot with the laser. Not after, but before I started hitting with fire extinguisher, whereas you claim that I was attacking before getting shot, which is clearly contradicted by the logs that you yourself posted. What? No, that's not right at all. The logs do state that Primmy was shooting me BEFORE I started hitting anyone with the fire extinguisher. This is also a situation that you were personally involved in, so, again, the complaint is that the fact that you had a personal stake in that situation may have clouded your judgement, IE stating that I was first in hitting you with the fire extinguisher, and that was before I got lasered to death. In what situation is "Random cargo technician with an energy gun walks up to the shuttle cockpit and shoots a janitor who has been stripped down and stunned by the HoP for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time." not excessive and within reason? Once again, I state that energy guns do have a stun function, and the cargo tech could have stunned me, but instead resorted to lethals before I had even done anything. Once again, the complaint here is not the incident, though I may make a player complaint about that later, but the fact that you had literally stated that this isn't an issue that you'd bother to fix. My thoughts are that this is because you were in the incident yourself, and, once again, I would like a second opinion from someone unrelated to the incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinny Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Yeah I fucked up then, the mech was attacking Cole and I fired on it with lethals in an attempt to stop it, which lead to me shooting random people because the mech started running around pushing people. I was annoyed at the time and I was only thinking about destroying the mech, hitting you with the lasers was accidental and extremely stupid on my part. I feel like a massive dick. Sorry man. Anywho, I did break the excessive force rule most likely and i'll accept a ban for that. Edit: I should add I have no idea what you two where doing, and this was all completely my fault. Not Kluys or yours. My lethals brought out your fire extinguisher. My stupid actions caused tons to get shot and i'm not gonna lie I was drunk at the time. You cannot justify my actions, it was just plainly stupid and griefy on my end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Unbiased opinion here, having as only data the posts on this topic, I can quickly say that this was a classical case of "shuttle clusterfuck". A phenomenon which usually happens as result of taking a high population of afraid, weaponized and very paranoid spessmen, who know that anybody and anything can be a deadly threat, and forcing them to enter a small room in a very limited time, where everybody has to be vigilant for his own life and have their own personal spaces constantly invaded. Some of them are even hunting then for the " bad guys", waiting for anybody to do anything suspicious to have an excuse to try out their brand new makeshift spear on some fleshy guts. I don't think I need to remind anybody the dire consequences of this explosive mix. If anybody tried to be a competent HoS or captain when this happens, then they would quickly find out how of an overwhelming task can bringing peace to the shuttle be. Now imagine this from an admin viewpoint, with the attack logs in the chat box, it literally turns into a waterfall of cyan logs, almost completely cluttering the chat and sometimes even making it hardly usable at all. We can't just enforce the rules there and ban everybody who dares to attack another guy aboard the shuttle, because there are traitors/changelings/vampires/whatever finishing their dirty job at the last moment. When I as admin have to overwatch a shuttle crowded with people, I usually watch only for obvious griefers and instantly ban them, as there is no time to ask the people involved and investigate the issue. And by obvious I mean like a bald civilian grabbing an extinguisher and bashing the nearest person unprovoked and while not being an antag. In this case, pretty much everybody seems guilty, you for trying to hack into a secure area and bashing a head of staff. The Ripley exosuit pilot for rampaging and drilling people (also, exosuits are NOT to be brought aboard the shuttle according to the Standard Operating Procedure). Cripty for tasering you before asking, stripping you and shouting at the Ripley to kill you. And the cargo tech Primmy Moore for shooting lasers on the shuttle. They all seem to be griefing, but if you ask them individually then they all had some reasons to do what were they doing, even if overreacted by the heat of the moment, as seen for example on Prinny's post above. That's why we admins can't worry too much about what happens aboard the shuttle while it's on transit and shuttle clustefuck happens. If we tried to understand all what is going on, ask everybody involved for his version, try to join the pieces together to figure out what really happened, EVERY ROUND, then we would quickly grow tired of it, or just go insane. And THERE ARE cases of admins almost going insane from stress trying to perfectly enforce the rules. So instead, I, at least, choose to watch only for very obvious griefers and ban them without question. Again, I need to do this only when the shuttle clusterfuck happens. Anyways, on your case I see the HoP tasering you when he thought you were breaking into a secure area of the shuttle, which is acceptable in code red and blue (I guess that was the alert level then). Then a rampaging Ripley who I guess thought you were being assaulted and wanted to defend you, and then the cargo tech trying to destroy the rampaging Ripley. Lot of accidents happen which cause, among others, your death. Maybe the Ripley pilot was indeed griefing, but his side of the story was the only we did not hear, so I can't really tell. To finish, about the door mysteriously opening. If you did not use a crowbar to pry it open, then two things could have happened: 1.An AI (carded), a Borg, or a drove opened the door remotely,and you didn't see it. 2.You disabled the ID scanner by cutting its cable, and then pulsed the access cable, opening the door. If you have any other questions or comments i will try to answer them as soon as its possible for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saaesculus Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 Thank you for the post, Adr. I believe that with that this can be moved to resolved, as I don't have anything to add or ask, and that post explains things well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 So shall it be, locking and moving to resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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