Feedback on proposal to extend Alien Embryo (xeno) gestation system

[rocket2guns]

What I am Proposing

The Alien Embryo is used in xeno development. As part of a small space ruin I have been working on, and after watching a lot of xeno rounds, I'd like to propose some minor extensions to alien embryo behavior. I have drafted changes to alien_embryo.dm that:

• introduce a incubation_scale value to be applied to the existing stage advancement process. The larger the incubation_scale, the longer it will take to advance
• dead hosts have a flat incubation_scale of 2, this would mean xeno's are penalized for letting hosts die before they give birth
• frozen unconscious hosts (below 0oC) will not advance (those in cryo_tubes)
• cold hosts (0oC - 32oC) will advance slower, based on how far below ideal temp their body temp is
• the bodyscanner now reports the size of the embryo (tiny, very small, small, large, very large)
• antibiotics ("spaceacillin") is mildly effective at slowing down progression in early stages
• neurotoxin is extremely effective at slowing down growth at all stages other than final
• high dose of neurotoxin will kill an alien embryo if given in the early to mid stages of gestation. the dosage increases for each gestation stage (10u to 50u).

Treatment Protocol Summary

Quote

1. Immediately administer 15-30u of spaceacillin to any casualty with obvious signs of xeno impregnation.
2. If scan indicates recent gestation and toxin medical treatment is available, administer 20-50u of neurotoxin and scan for confirmation of embryo death. Note that the neurotoxin will cause severe damage to the patient which will require significant management. When time permits, remove embryo corpse via surgery.
3. If infection time is unknown or surgery is not an immediate option, store patient in cyro tube in frozen state until surgery is available.
4. If cryo is not available or while patient is in transit/during surgery, IV administration of spaceacillin or neurotoxin to maintain blood levels is prefered. If using neurotoxin, recommend include toxin healing treatment in IV mix.

Why it is good for the game

Xeno rounds are fun, but there is little "agency" for those within the round. As an example, existing changes to spiders to introduce a toxin effect over time, gives medical staff actions to do - making the round more interesting. It is rare to see someone try to cut out an embryo, as there is no way to slow down the infection.

The proposed changes give a tangible chance for the medical staff, and others, to delay progression while they can conduct surgery. Conducting surgery in a xeno round, to remove an embryo, is really incredible. Additionally, once crew are aware of it being a xeno round this gives the opportunity for the medical staff to begin preparing. Neurotoxin is a narcotic, not normally allowed. In the same way engineers in an emergency are authorized to tear the station to pieces for necessary goals, this could involve the CMO authorizing the production of neurotoxin (and spaceacillin). The neurotoxin is also somewhat like chemo is in real life - it will require treating in its own right as it will kill the host as well. The use of spaceacillin fits with its description and existing use case (slowing the progression of disease), as well as existing use to slow parasites.

My proposed approach

So far I have all of the above working. My plan is to check for broad agreement first, and then submit these changes for review if there is broad interest in it. 

The following caveats exist:

• The current lethal doses of neurotoxin for the embryo just outright delete the embryo. I plan to change this so that they will damage the embryo over time, until the embryo "organ" is dead. Then leave the dead embryo inside. This requires some testing, but would bring the organ in line with other organs.
• I have not wanted to touch many files. Currently the way the bodyscanner works, is that the "desc" for the embryo only shows in the printed version, not the screen version. I don't plan on changing this as I want the PR to be as simple as possible. Little steps!
• These changes are wrapped up with the addition of an AI only variant of larva and facehugger, as I want to use these for a proposed space ruin. However, I will likely comment these out for the PR to keep things simple.

If the PR is submitted and then approved I will update the Wiki and prepare a in-universe book detailing proposed treatment protocol from an in-universe document perspective

Edited December 12, 2022 by rocket2guns

[Samman166]

While I'm not a design team member I do have a few concerns,

1

5 hours ago, rocket2guns said:

 

• dead hosts have a flat incubation_scale of 2, this would mean xeno's are penalized for letting hosts die before they give birth

Xenos already are penalized for letting hosts die they should already take longer to incubate if dead

2

5 hours ago, rocket2guns said:

high dose of neurotoxin will kill an alien embryo if given in the early to mid stages of gestation. the dosage increases for each gestation stage (10u to 50u).

Neurotoxin is (despite the name) actually kinda harmless especially if you only need 10 units you would be able to pop some neurotoxin right after being hugged and barely suffer any I'll effects especially If you mix it with mannitol and charcoal, even without you'd get a total of 10 toxin damage and 10 brain damage for the lowest dose and it wouldn't even knock you out. I would do two things, use a different chem than neurotoxin not only is it easy to make but its relatively weak like I said, I think using amantin could be interesting because it would involve botany as well as medical to aquire it and you can't get around it's affects by mixing it with charcoal or other things, other chems would work too some I'd recommend would be conine or carpotoxin as they similarly involve botany too. I would also increase dosage needed 10 units is way to low in my opinion especially for neurotoxin ideally I think you want a dosage that will force the user to back off instead of just push on best way to do that would be making the dosage inflict enough damage to cause a damage slowdown If they use it at a stage 1 embryo or put them at or near crit if they try and use it at stage 2 you'd want to plan accordingly for what chem you use in the final version be that neurotoxin, one I suggested or something different all together.

3

You mentioned being able to cure embryos up to stage 3 with chems on discord I think thats a bit much and should be for stages 1-2 assuming there will be 5 stages.

4

Making cold and dead hosts kinda nerds xenos ability to have their nest open to space for an escape route because it means hosts will usually die before bursting due to exposure and almost certainly get cold, two ways you could solve that, you could remove making it cold slow progression making it only work if they are also unconscious or the preferable albeit hard approach would be to make it so xeno nests(the ones they buckle people too) have some sort of life support that would prevent freezing, suffocating and slowly heal them too a certain point (this way xenos can still rough up targets a bit if they must and not sit helplessly as they die of crit and stunt the larva).

5

Stacking things that slowdown progression would probably become an issue especially if like I said above the xeno nest is exposed to space and all their victims are therefore likely to both starve and freeze but could also be a problem if people use cooled spacecillin to slow growth even further likely to the point it'd become able to be neglected for long periods removing any urgency.

 

To be clear I don't want to come off as super negative and feel like I'm shitting all over your idea, it's a great idea and I love it myself being able to actually do something about infected people other than have them sit there waiting their turn in the OR while an alien burrows out their chest and being able to actually tell the stage of an embryo is something that we honestly should have considered long ago, being able to put high risk people in tubes is also absolutely fantastic. My main concerns with it all are not the application of the mechanics in medbay rather them being used in the field to remove the need for medbay other than as a drug dispenser or how the mechanics might hamper xenos ability to incubate embryos in even ideal conditions. It's great you are stepping up to such a big task and actually put together a well thought out design document. Final thoughts great idea/PR few even if I have some concerns. And again to be clear I'm not part of the design team or balance team and this is just me giving my opinion as anyone else on the server would me being an admin does not mean you have to take my suggestions.

Great stuff all in all

[S34N]

I like these ideas a lot.

The only foggy point that jumps out at me is how we would handle people who "freeze" before then dying, as dead people don't process temps (so they can't warm up again) nor does the embryo advance. Would this system just mean they would be a dormant body until revived?

 

Edit: Samman has a point regarding neurotoxin. It perhaps should do greater harm to you if there is an embryo present. That would mitigate people using them in combat, while medical staff would be able to handle this somewhat easily.

Edited December 12, 2022 by S34N

[Qwertytoforty]

I like the premise, however I do have some concerns over it.

I like the idea of spacicilian slowing it down in the early stages, A simple treatment method that buys medbay more time.

I am fine with dead hosts slowing down incubation slightly (say 20%), so xenos do benefit a bit from keeping hosts alive, but not penalised when their nests are spaced / people suicide or succumb in nests, or when they have to use their claws on someone stun immune / on drugs, or punished for larva biting hosts to grow faster.

Resin nests should probably purge these (or all) chemicals so people can't run into the nest full of them and delay xeno time greatly, by getting autohuged, killing the embryo with neurotoxin, and getting huggered again, consuming multiple huggers at once.

My concern with cold people not processing, is A: Spacing nests will freeze everyone, stopping growth for xenos completely, and B: Cryotubes should probably not be used as a one and done method to put someone in them after injecting neurotoxin to cure them.

Also, leaving a dead embryo inside of them will probably block them from getting another embryo until the one inside them is removed, which is not great.