Ian>>>>>Player Apparently

[LennethV]

 

Admin Key: Infant Punter, Kluys

 

Complaint: These two blatantly disregarded the rules and allowed a griefing player to get away with murdering someone. Now, before they say anything, I did commit a crime: Animal Cruelty. Killing a Corgi in no way violates the rules, nor does it justify player murder.

 

[Regen]

Some more context for this complaint would be great, as we take Admin Complaints quite seriously

[LennethV]

Very well, I was playing the Bartender and was gathering up some shells for my gun from cargo. I spotted Ian on my way back, given Henderson's character (Ian ruined one of his gnomes) he hacked Ian up and threw him in a washing machine. A civilian chased after me with a fire extinguisher. I just kept disarming her and throwing the extinguisher away. Once it became clear she wouldn't stop until I was dead, I pulled out the butcher's cleaver which she took and cut my head off with. I complained to the admins, and these two said it was completely justified since I was "Self Antagging", even though Animal Cruelty is a minor crime, and Ian was out in the halls so it wasn't like I broke into the HoP's office to do it. Nonetheless, this was a violation of rule 4, which is kind of a big deal last I checked.

[LennethV]

 

I would first like to make it clear that Henderson's hatred of Ian is fairly well known on this server, as well as his utter insanity. Now, this is not to say that I use his mental instability as a shield against grief or motivation, far from it. But he does have his motivations and traits, he's obsessed with finding the cult of space mormons who stole his antique garden gnome collection, and holds nothing but sheer hatred for those that do harm to his gnomes (Even though he's the one who got really high and sold them off to a charity auction.) In any case, he holds hatred for Ian for "killing" one of his gnomes by burying it and defecating all over it, and will do his best to take revenge on the homocidal corgi.

 

As for Roleplaying your character, I'm sure this was exactly what they would have done in that situation. But the reason this server remains the current best, is because we adhere to the rules, and I would like to clarify how rule 4 is carefully worded:

Avoid Excessive Violence:

When provoked into extreme anger a punch or two may be realistic but Nanotrasen doesn't hire people who bludgeon someone to death with a crowbar when angry or bored.

 

Punching Henderson would have been justified. But you went straight for the lethal force instead of trying to call security or go for a non lethal method of subduing him. This is not an appropriate reaction.

Self-defense only justifies a proportional use of force and only what’s required to save your life.

 

Only towards the end was your life in any danger, when Henderson was forced to pull out a cleaver to defend himself. Note how I could have pulled that out at any time to fight back, but instead opted to disarm you and throw away the fire extinguisher. Even then you kept coming at me, so what was I to do?

Chasing a person down is not self defense, neither is crushing their skull with an oxy tank while they're down.

 

Need I remind you that you were the one who chased me down first when your life wasn't in danger.

 

If you think murder or extreme violence is justified in response to someone's actions, then admin help for permission. Even if it is justified in an RP context, without admin permission it is not allowable.

 

I can't say you didn't do this, but even if you did this is a violation of the rules, which is why I'm posting here.

 

Lethal force should always be a last resort, even for security. Remember as well that what the admins will permit and what security will arrest you for a two completely different things.

 

Another point in my favor, as Ian is classified as an NPC even when player controlled. True, you could have had Henderson arrested for animal cruelty, which while I hate being caught I do understand that it is completely justified. But you went straight for murder. That is not acceptable.

Saying your character is CRAZY LOL is not an excuse for this - that's just bad roleplay.

It's bad roleplay to state that your character flipped out and tried to beat someone to death with a fire extinguisher rather than call for law enforcement.

 

Finally, as to address the notion of me "Self Antagging":

While petty crimes and theft are acceptable if it fits your character, if you are not an antagonist, actions such as subverting the AI, stealing high value items such as the Captain's ID, mutiny, and other actions that could lead others to believe you are antagonists are not to be done.

Note the emphasis on "Petty Crimes". Animal cruelty is classified as a petty crime under space law, and is not normally lumped together with actions such as subverting the AI or stealing the Captain's ID. Not to mention, this fits Henderson's character to the letter, as he only targets Ian, or the goat if he's a Chef.

 

In the end, nothing you did justified murdering a fellow human being, nor should it render you immune to grief rules. This is why I am voicing a complaint.

 

[Xperia15]

 

Let me clear some things for you up.

I was the assistant, Seda Demirel

I have played, heavy Roleplay with Ian since the start of the round. We hugged and talked and played with eachother a lot.

Than, when I was walking together with him under the showers, You random came up, took your butcher knife and KILLED him without any valid reason at all, or any warning. Just total random as I did not even notice you.

I Roleplay with my character a lot, and my character who NEVER harmed anyone before, freaked the living out of her. Before I could say anything, you grabbed Ian and started to drag him to the vendors up holodeck. On my way I grabbed a fire extinguisher because I knew you had a cleaver. Following you, you went to the vendors and walked to the washing machine, where you placed Ian in a washing machine. My character was now beginning to become crazy and started to attack you. You first disarmed me and threw my fire extinguisher away, where I than proceeded to hit you with my fist. During the fight, you closed the doors and gibbed Ian infront of her. Now she was breaking down from the disgust of your deed.

After I cracked your skull, you took our your knife and missed me. I proceeded to disarm you immediately. You dropped the knife, I picked it up and in my surprise I insta decapitated you.

My character than rped like you would do in real life. Killing someone is no fun and I did not enjoy doing it. Seda began to break down, crying, screaming and looking in disgust at her hands. I even told the HoS what I did, even told the AI. I tried to turn myself in at security.

 

Anyhow, I Roleplay according to my character feeling and response to your unlawful and just trouble searching deed. There was no clear reason to ruin my Roleplay and that of the player who played Ian. As I said before, I hate killing, I hate to ruin other people game. I avoid that at all cost. But this was just so unlawful.

Excessive self defense is acceptable if there is excessive Roleplay behind it.

Applaus to the admins, they have observed the whole act from the beginning and dealt with it according to the rules.

 

Also the rules examples are NOT the rules, their examples of what they mean.

 

Edited September 9, 2014 by Guest

[Xperia15]

 

I would first like to make it clear that Henderson's hatred of Ian is fairly well known on this server, as well as his utter insanity. Now, this is not to say that I use his mental instability as a shield against grief or motivation, far from it. But he does have his motivations and traits, he's obsessed with finding the cult of space mormons who stole his antique garden gnome collection, and holds nothing but sheer hatred for those that do harm to his gnomes (Even though he's the one who got really high and sold them off to a charity auction.) In any case, he holds hatred for Ian for "killing" one of his gnomes by burying it and defecating all over it, and will do his best to take revenge on the homocidal corgi.

 

That's basically self Antagging as you are flagging your character as animal homicidal because of non fictional and off station make ups just to justify yourself to kill Ian with no reason whatsoever.

 

As for Roleplaying your character, I'm sure this was exactly what they would have done in that situation. But the reason this server remains the current best, is because we adhere to the rules, and I would like to clarify how rule 4 is carefully worded:

 

 

Punching Henderson would have been justified. But you went straight for the lethal force instead of trying to call security or go for a non lethal method of subduing him. This is not an appropriate reaction.

 

Not entirely true as you were the one trying to decapitated me first with a butcher knife. You went to lethal at once because I hitted you. I disarmed you and hitted you 1 time with the same butcher knife you were gonna use on me.

 

Self-defense only justifies a proportional use of force and only what’s required to save your life.

 

Yup I did what I had to do to safe my life. I had a extinguisher only to knock you down, you had a butcher knife with the intent to serious harm me. You missed me, your fault, I disarmed you and used your weapon against you, thus saving my own life. If you did not wanted to die, then don't begin to take out a freaking lethal knife and than try to hit me, only to be killed by your own weapon.

 

[Only towards the end was your life in any danger, when Henderson was forced to pull out a cleaver to defend himself. Note how I could have pulled that out at any time to fight back, but instead opted to disarm you and throw away the fire extinguisher. Even then you kept coming at me, so what was I to do? ]

 

You should not self antag at first. Making your character look insane because he ruined a gnome, like the fuck? That's just searching for a reason to get problem with players and than complain because you got killed. At first, why did you even have a cleaver? You prepare this, this was not out random

 

 

Chasing a person down is not self defense, neither is crushing their skull with an oxy tank while they're down.

 

Need I remind you that you were the one who chased me down first when your life wasn't in danger.

 

I clased you down because you

1. Killed Ian, my friend without any reason.

2. Instead of leaving Ian alone you grabbed him and gibbed him. That's a clear reason for getting trouble on your side.

 

If you think murder or extreme violence is justified in response to someone's actions, then admin help for permission. Even if it is justified in an RP context, without admin permission it is not allowable.

 

I can't say you didn't do this, but even if you did this is a violation of the rules, which is why I'm posting here.

 

If I did not do it, I would have been banned. Your problem it seems is that you have no understanding about roleplay or excessive Roleplay on my account. Making a character who us crazy and kills Ian on sight because he ruined a non fictional gnome is just plain stupid and clear self Antagging. You killed Ian for your own cause, with the intent to harm someone's day. I was happy playing the round, you clearly joined to create trouble.

 

Funny is how you quote me as a crazy character player while your character is homocidal because if some stupid gnome that was ravaged by Ian in one of your dreams. that's self Antagging. My character is complete made from playing the game, get personality, appearance, friendship and reactions. I never even heard of your character as you stated that it was well known, that's also self Antagging as you flag your character as well known that he hates Ian.

Ian is a NPC yes, but a NPC is still player controlled and Ian was at that time player controlled since the start of the shift.

If you know what Roleplaying is, than you would know what I did was justified. Roleplay is important on this server and if wel played, it can be very rewarding.

 

[LennethV]

 

That's basically self Antagging as you are flagging your character as animal homicidal because of non fictional and off station make ups just to justify yourself to kill Ian with no reason whatsoever.

 

No, that's what's known as "Backstory". Henderson does have a reason to kill Ian, role playing goes far beyond just replying to events on the station, it means thoroughly playing through every aspect of a character who is not yourself.

 

 

Not entirely true as you were the one trying to decapitated me first with a butcher knife. You went to lethal at once because I hitted you. I disarmed you and hitted you 1 time with the same butcher knife you were gonna use on me.

A fire extinguisher is a lethal weapon on this server since combat is much more deadly now. You had fractured Henderson's skull and nearly put him into crit, and when the fire extinguisher was gone you resorted to using your hands. This was obvious intent to kill from my perspective.

 

Yup I did what I had to do to safe my life. I had a extinguisher only to knock you down, you had a butcher knife with the intent to serious harm me. You missed me, your fault, I disarmed you and used your weapon against you, thus saving my own life. If you did not wanted to die, then don't begin to take out a freaking lethal knife and than try to hit me, only to be killed by your own weapon.

 

If your intent was to simply knock me down, then you really need a crash course on the lethality of this server because you weren't just knocking me down, you cracked my skull despite my attempts to simply disarm you. Drawing out the Butcher's cleaver is the natural response when inches away from critical condition, but bashing someone with a fire extinguisher even after you broke someone's skull is serious homicidal behavior.

 

You should not self antag at first. Making your character look insane because he ruined a gnome, like the fuck? That's just searching for a reason to get problem with players and than complain because you got killed. At first, why did you even have a cleaver? You prepare this, this was not out random

 

I just explained why killing Ian is not Self Antagging in that sense: It is classified under "Animal Cruelty", which is a minor offense. You however committed murder, which under the right circumstances can be grounds for perma. In terms of severity of the crime, the two could not be further apart.

 

I clased you down because you

1. Killed Ian, my friend without any reason.

2. Instead of leaving Ian alone you grabbed him and gibbed him. That's a clear reason for getting trouble on your side.

 

Which is justification for taking the law in your hands and executing someone on the spot? Sorry, but no. You instigated the fight and made it lethal from the very beginning.

If I did not do it, I would have been banned. Your problem it seems is that you have no understanding about roleplay or excessive Roleplay on my account. Making a character who us crazy and kills Ian on sight because he ruined a non fictional gnome is just plain stupid and clear self Antagging. You killed Ian for your own cause, with the intent to harm someone's day. I was happy playing the round, you clearly joined to create trouble.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. I did not join to create trouble, while I do play a crazy and psychotic character, I do so because Henderson amuses me and because his habits are the only way to survive when people deem it okay to violate the law and kill without reason (IE: You). But even still, Henderson doesn't abuse his bouts of insanity, this is why he doesn't accuse everybody of stealing his gnomes, or burst into random fits of murder. Yes, he kills Ian, but this is not out of intent to ruin someone's day in of itself, he targets Ian regardless of whether or not he's player controlled. In fact, it is much more of a break of roleplaying to suddenly decide that a civilian with no previous inclination towards violence would suddenly try to beat someone to death with a fire extinguisher.

 

 

Funny is how you quote me as a crazy character player while your character is homocidal because if some stupid gnome that was ravaged by Ian in one of your dreams. that's self Antagging. My character is complete made from playing the game, get personality, appearance, friendship and reactions. I never even heard of your character as you stated that it was well known, that's also self Antagging as you flag your character as well known that he hates Ian.

Ian is a NPC yes, but a NPC is still player controlled and Ian was at that time player controlled since the start of the shift.

If you know what Roleplaying is, than you would know what I did was justified. Roleplay is important on this server and if wel played, it can be very rewarding.

 

We probably play at different times usually, but here's a layout of the thing: Henderson does have his reputation, both on and off the server. His behavior, though unusual has also been a huge bonus, what with his previous instances of saving the station thanks to his in depth knowledge of weaponry. At all times, I play as Henderson when in character unless I have good reason not to. But above all else, I keep Henderson's insanity grounded at all times so that he doesn't do things that would constitute grief, I try my best to avoid breaking server rules and using roleplaying as a shield. Because here's something you need to understand: The rules exist for a reason, and nothing you did justifies murder. I would be willing to cut you some slack if you admitted to over reacting, or if you truly seemed to regret having killed a player. But so far all I'm seeing is constant excuses for why you chose to go all murderbone, which would be breaking character as I understand it.

 

[monkeysfist101]

 

In my state, if you run up to someone in the street and kill their dog, you should fully accept the fact that they will more than likely start to shoot at you. If I recall, your "backstory" is that Ian shat on a lawn gnome? Honestly, that doesn't seem like a good reason to kill something. Considering the role-play aspect of it, no two people play Ian the same. Some play him as your average, fun-loving corgi, some play him as a kingpin who runs the animal mob on the station, Hell, I've seen him played as Nar-Sie possessing a canine. If I put in Grugg's backstory that Henderson was a syndicate agent that only Grugg knew about and set out to kill him on sight every round, I'd probably get banned. It's bad, if not a lack of RP, and we're sick of it.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, and telling people looc that if they beat you for it, they'll get banned is pretty low.

 

[Infant Punter]

 

And here is my input.

 

I have also only read the first Post to keep my story as I know it.

 

I received a player complaint from you, stating that Seda chopped your head off after you were done mutilating the dog. After further investigation, me and Kluys discovered from Seda that you took the dog out of the blue and killed it, brought it to the nearest washing machine, and made a bunch of Ian Meat. We also found out that Ian was being controlled by a player, and that the Ian player and Seda were both having a fun time together until you decided to come and ruin their fun because of something with a back story. So then Seda took it IC and became enraged, killing you in vengeance for her friend, who was a player. Now that is the story, and you wanted us to help you and I assume, punish Seda.

 

But in my eyes, Seda was completely justified in her actions. Here is how I see it: A quite choppy backstory led you to take someones Dog, who was controlled by a player, and kill it with a cleaver, and then turn it into meat giblets with a washing machine. After Seda was having fun with her Friend, you came by and just ruined it for the sake of your own fun. Then Seda took revenge for Ian, who I emphasize was a player, which you killed, ruining the fun they were having. So you ruined their fun, aswell as their round. So Seda took revenge on you on equal levels, and you felt her revenge was unjust, even enough to bring it to our attention.

 

Now I read through a little more to your complaint. And about this.

When provoked into extreme anger a punch or two may be realistic but Nanotrasen doesn't hire people who bludgeon someone to death with a crowbar when angry or bored.

I don't think they would hire someone who takes dogs from their loving owners, cleaves them to death, and then shoves their corpse in a washing machine to tumble them around until they are in meat chunks.

 

Let me also mention that I also saw you complaining about us not taking action in OOC too, before I knew about this complaint, which was completely uncalled for.

 

[LennethV]

Honestly though, at this point I'm starting to see this as a lost cause. Infant's claim that the admins are "Sick of my shit" was more than a little shocking to me, since I thought I was improving after the whole mech rampage thing, for crying out loud I've been asking permission for every single kill I've had to make as an antag since then. Plus what with the recent in game events, I've been feeling a little singled out, if making Ian slaughtering part of Henderson's character is really that much of an issue then I will stop it (Unless I draw up an antag where my goal is to steal corgi meat.) I'm going to drop this whole issue and take a break from the game for a little while to cool off. Go ahead and delete this thread if you wish.

[DeletedUser]

 

Well, let's try to describe this situation in another way, with a metaphorical story, if you like:

 

Is a sunny day at the beach and there are some people enjoying the good weather, one guy is windsurfing, another is sunbathing till his skin boils, other guy is hunting crabs with a spear, other guys came with a mini-fidge full of beer and are getting drunk, and two kids are building a sandcastle while their mom sleeps few meters away.

Some of those activities are dangerous, windsurfing uses very tense metal strings and hunting crabs with a spear is a risky idea, but everybody is at a safe distance of each other so it doesnt matter.

Then another guy comes, who has a childhood trauma after losing a sandcastle contest, so he can't suffer them. He goes to the kids and stomps the sandcastle to the ground, the kids of course start crying, and to hit the guy with the plastic toy shovels. He tries to push the kids off, and the mom wakes up and starts yelling at the guy, then one of the kids picks up a sharp shell and stabs the guy in the foot, making a deep cut. That guy will need to have his foot bandaged, and probably even crutches for the next weeks, forcing him to stay at home and to miss the good weather. You might see it as excessive, but the guy kinda deserves it, and nobody will feel bad for him.

The guy then calls the police and denounces the mom, accusing her of assault (she is responsible of the kids and blah blah blah). The cop then could blindly follow the law and sue the mother, but he would feel bad for that, because is obvious that the guy deserves it, even if it's not against the law to crush sandcastles.

 

 

I know this it's a silly example, and probably not even necessary, but i hope it helps seeing the situation, even if it doesnt exactly match yours.

I know most admins would like to see more roleplay on the server, rather than just robusting and powergaming. Then you say "but i was roleplaying my character", oh yeah, we have lots of characters who "hate tajara and would make their life miserable", or "likes to torture mouses", or "hates Poly because she steals my stuff and I will stuff her in disposals everytime i see her". So well... for once some players are just enjoying a good RP, and someone ruins it to satisfy his lust for murder..... well... nobody is really having fun there....

We used to have a rule: "DON'T BE A DICK", but it was changed because it was too subjective, and we had to make clearer rules everybody would understand (even if people still has trouble understanding them).

I could ban the assistant, because killing an animal is not against the rules, but killing a human (or tajara or whatever) player is.

The ruleset is indeed a compilation of guidelines you have to follow and breaking them are grounds for a ban, but they does not qualify as a replacement for the admin's ability to independently act when making a ban (read: the ruleset does not replace the admin's brain and common sense).

 

Call me a badmin if you like, but i'm not going to ban people who wanted to roleplay properly, but it was violently denied to them.

 

[Kluys]

 

Sorry for the late reaction I have been busy with school,

We know its not propperly defined in the rules but in this case we made the exception for a few reasons.

 

1. The biggest one being that although it wasnt within the boundaries of the rules it was completly within the boundaries as far as IC reactions go.

I ask you in this case what would you do if someone murdered your dog and threw it in a washing machine to turn it into pieces of meat infront of you, what would you do?

 

2. As for the rules, The introductory part clearly states that the rules themselves are to clear up the basic ruleset. This whole issue is in a grey zone of the rules since you got murdered for a reason that fits IC wise.

And in this same category "if you are not an antagonist, actions such as subverting the AI, stealing high value items such as the Captain's ID, mutiny, and other actions that could lead others to believe you are antagonists are not to be done."

although it wasn't the case here, Ian's meat is an antagonist objective sometimes and thus this rule can apply to both parties in this case.

 

3. And as a final thing, the decapitation can be considered accidental. You had a cracked skull but you were still fighting and in any other case you would be down on the ground long before you died. The reason you died in this case is because the damage to your skull with the aditional cut of the meat cleaver (that the person got from disarming you) added up to a decapitation.

 

Because of this we chose not to ban or punish xperia.

 

[LennethV]

Look, the issue is over and it's obvious I will be unable to change anything. I've given in some thought and I've decided that killing Ian is no longer a viable character trait, since it will result my murder going unpunished. Her reaction was still over the top but... yeah, in a way I had it coming. I don't want to deal with this kind of drama again so I'm dropping Henderson's backstory sections relating to Ian. He's still utterly psychotic because, well, he's Henderson. But from now on it's going to be limited to wacky dialogue and the delusion that a cult of space mormons stole his Garden Gnomes.

[DeletedUser]

Resolved, locking and moving the thread.