Kidan Damage Adjustments

[TrainTN]

Much like non-sentient insects, Kida possess a vascular circulatory system. This means that while internal organ damage may be more forgiving for them, bleeding out becomes a much bigger threat.

This is the first sentence about kidan physiology on the wiki, but I thought it strange that this detail doesn't seem to be coded into them, according to the rest of the wiki article? In my opinion, kida are poorly balanced. Minor brute resistance and glowing in the dark are barely advantages compared to not being able to use eyewear in a game where 5 out of 6 departments (excluding Command) rely on eyewear equipment. It's an inconvenience in medical, science, and engineering; dangerous in security when you lack flash immunity AND eye protection, making you vulnerable to your own equipment; and outright disabling in mining. Being locked behind a hefty 30 karma doesn't help either. So I was wondering if something like the quoted above selection could be incorporated into kida to at least give them a little something more. I'm not versed in the specifics of the health system, but I'm suggesting something like either a resistance to internal organ damage, natural organ healing, or increased thresholds of organ damage effects; possibly balanced by taking extra suffocation damage from blood loss, such as incurring it at a faster tickrate.

Alternatively there could be something done about their bones. Being bugs, they have exoskeletons, so they lack internal bones. Maybe they should be immune to broken bones or lack bones altogether since I'd assume fixing the surface damage is the same thing as fixing their bones. Either idea would mean kida could take more damage without having to worry about seeking surgical aid as much compared to other races. It could be like slime people being able to regrow severed limbs, in that kida can regenerate damaged organs or aren't impeded by broken bones, which could let them walk off injuries that would keep other species stuck in medbay, provided they did not lose too much blood before being patched up.

Overall, I just want to see these guys get something more, since few other races are as impeded by their downsides as kida are in normal mundane gameplay. Even this idea may not be enough, I'm afraid, since not everyone is going to get into dangerous situations where damage resistances would matter, whereas the lack of glasses impacts the player at all times in most roles. I don't know how difficult it would be to code something like this either, as far as I know it could be anywhere from effortless to impossible, but I want to hope for the best.

[Jountax]

As far as I know kidans can still receive eye implants, and those should solve most of the issues with lack of the glasses slot. It's still a hoop to jump through though.

[TrainTN]

44 minutes ago, Jountax said:

As far as I know kidans can still receive eye implants, and those should solve most of the issues with lack of the glasses slot. It's still a hoop to jump through though.

It's a significant hoop because it relies on RnD doing its job effectively every round just to bring you up to the same level as everyone else. It relies on Robotics printing the implants out and them or Medbay putting the implants in you, which not every player is knowledgeable in doing. To get the same benefits as anyone wearing HUDglasses, you need both the welding shield and the SecHUD implants, and you still lack actual eye protection afterwards. To mine--something which kida are known for in their lore despite being incapable of it in gameplay, ironically--you need the X-ray implant, which is costly and unlikely to be given to anyone except Security. By the point most of these implants are unlocked, the round will probably be half over at best.

So being able to receive implants doesn't solve anything. All it does it bring you back up to semi-normal, for a fraction of any round, even in a best-case scenario, which every round definitely is not. 20% brute resistance is not worth that amount of inconvenience every single round played.

[Jountax]

Science tends to have welding shield implants by 12:30, and the hud implants aren't much harder than that to get. I wasn't offering this as a reason for not buffing them in the first place, just trying to offer any kidans out there some advice, really.

I'm not sure why the lack of mesons would render someone incapable of mining, however, rather than (possibly greatly) inconvenienced. They still get mining scanners that work just like everyone else's, and mesons don't let you see a monster coming from outside the range you'd be able to see it anyway.

As far as your proposed nerfed and buffs, based on my understanding of the code all it would take would be to change a couple of variables, not at all hard to implement.

[davidchan]

16 minutes ago, Jountax said:

Science tends to have welding shield implants by 12:30, and the hud implants aren't much harder than that to get. I wasn't offering this as a reason for not buffing them in the first place, just trying to offer any kidans out there some advice, really

Should and often do are two entirely different situations here. And all of this assumes who ever is working RnD is in a helpful mood and willing to pass out toys and not working on some nerd cave you aren't allowed in.

16 minutes ago, Jountax said:

I'm not sure why the lack of mesons would render someone incapable of mining, however, rather than (possibly greatly) inconvenienced. They still get mining scanners that work just like everyone else's, and mesons don't let you see a monster coming from outside the range you'd be able to see it anyway

 

Without mesons you literally can't mine. You can't see ores past the exposed rock, meaning the Kidan either has to strip mine or rely on someone else to point out deposits not on the outer lying edge. Scanners only expose tiles you can see, so if you don't have mesons removing the 'fog of war' for tiles then you can't effectively mine. It'd be like trying to treat a person's injuries in medical without a body scanner or health analyzer, only using the default examine.

 

[Jountax]

Fair point, then.

Maybe another buff they could get would be a kind of ore sense. Similar code already exists for thermal vision seeing living things through walls, and it makes sense that the species renowned for being miners has something to make them better miners. And I doubt anyone would claim something like that to be overpowered.

Might even try to PR that myself if you had no objections to it.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Jountax

[TrainTN]

44 minutes ago, Jountax said:

Fair point, then.

Maybe another buff they could get would be a kind of ore sense. Similar code already exists for thermal vision seeing living things through walls, and it makes sense that the species renowned for being miners has something to make them better miners. And I doubt anyone would claim something like that to be overpowered.

Might even try to PR that myself if you had no objections to it.

it would solve the problem of the department they're most hindered in. Combine that with my original post's proposals, and kidan would be pretty good miners. Then the only department they'd be seriously hampered in would be Security, but that was the point of the eyeglasses weakness in the first place.

[Jountax]

Now that I'm actually looking at the code, bleed vulnerability and organ damage resistance are both slightly more difficult to achieve than I thought.

Anyway, had a thought. What if you could treat a kidan's broken bones by just slapping the affected body part with bone gel topically, since their skin is, well, their bones?

[Shadeykins]

On a side note, thanks for quoting that - I just realized it uses the wrong biological terms and is a little off-kilter.

And by that I mean the biology is completely and absolutely wrong and contradictory.

It now reads thus.

Quote

Much like non-sentient insects, Kida possess an open circulatory system filled with hemolymph - a form of plasma analogous to blood in other species. The nature of their open-circulatory system has lead to them having a robust immune system, with additional internal adaptations to protect their tissues and organs from shock. However, despite the advantages Kida enjoy in the efficacy of their immune response, their open circulatory system means bleeding out becomes a much bigger threat. Apart from their circulatory system, the biological pathways involving Kidan physiology are quite similar to that of other known sapient humanoids. Chemists and Doctors will be happy to know that medication works just as well for them as for most other crewmembers!

But yes, Kidan balance needs to be revised. Almost nobody is willing to play them.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Shadeykins

[TrainTN]

1 hour ago, Shadeykins said:

On a side note, thanks for quoting that - I just realized it uses the wrong biological terms and is a little off-kilter.

And by that I mean the biology is completely and absolutely wrong and contradictory.

It now reads thus.

But yes, Kidan balance needs to be revised. Almost nobody is willing to play them.

I don't understand bug biology well enough to understand how backwards it was, but that snippet is definitely a more interesting read than the original selection.

And yes, no one really wants to play them. I do want to play them, which is why I made this thread, but I don't want to buy into a 30KP race only to realize it's so held back by mechanics that I can't really enjoy being one, as is sometimes argued for other races like diona and IPCs. I don't want to choose race based on what is "strongest," I just want to choose whatever looks fun, but I don't want to play as something that has burdensome downsides with little apparent upsides. Some disadvantages for a unique advantage is fine; Greys are squishy but have telepathy, vox and plasmamen are spaceproof but need special internals constantly, slimes have unique biology, IPCs have no biology, and drask eat soap. Kidan don't really have anything like that, other than burning nutrition to glow in the dark, which is something anyone can replicate with a flashlight and at less personal cost.

[Jountax]

So far I've managed to put a new organ in their heads, but I'm still working out the actually sensing ores through walls bit. I plan to do this in chunks, but I would like to get a better list on what the community actually thinks might make kidans more interesting, less frustrating, or otherwise just more enjoyable to play so I know what to work on next.

 

... If me taking on this project isn't too presumptuous, that is.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Jountax

[TrainTN]

23 minutes ago, Jountax said:

So far I've managed to put a new organ in their heads, but I'm still working out the actually sensing ores through walls bit. I plan to do this in chunks, but I would like to get a better list on what the community actually thinks might make kidans more interesting, less frustrating, or otherwise just more enjoyable to play so I know what to work on next.

 

... If me taking on this project isn't too presumptuous, that is.

If it's doable, I approve of the ore-sensing. It's logical and puts them on the same level as other players in a specific niche so I see nothing wrong with it. Combine it with another adjustment or two and kidan would be much better off than they are now. And I appreciate anyone doing it, much better than no one doing it as most suggestions tend to be. But more input from other people would be great, I would like to hear others' thoughts and opinions myself.

[TrainTN]

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/8580

This PR was posted recently. I'm not sure how I feel about it, personally. Since it was relevant to the topic, I figured I could give it a bump.

[TrainTN]

The PR has been up for a number of days now and there's been a lot of back-and-forth discussion over it. I am growing concerned that no one will be able to agree on what they want from kidan, and nothing will ever actually get changed. I must admit that even I am stuck on my own idea and can't agree with other people's suggestions on what to do with them.

Overall, what I wanted from kida was for them to be the hardy species. With the lore update up above, I liked the idea of them being immune to infections (even if infections are broken right now, it's the thought that counts) as well as being tougher than most, but still having their own unique weakness, i.e. being more vulnerable to blood loss, maybe even suffocation in general. Specifically, they would merely incur more damage at the same tick-rate as every other species when reaching the low-blood thresholds; if they bled faster it would nullify the brute resist too much. If having tougher bones and/or organs was possible, I think you'd have an interesting race where after being hurt, a kidan's biggest concern wouldn't be broken bones or damaged lungs, but instead finding gauze or a trauma kit to patch up the bleeding so they could find fuller medical treatment without fear, or even just walk it off after bugging the chemists for iron pills. I liked imagining kidan players tending to carry around their own bandages "just in case." I would sum it up as "tough body, sensitive blood." Especially if you threw in the toxin weakness, though I feel that one is unnecessary since kida are already weak to pest spray, something easily found in maintenance. I hoped that kind of balance would increase their survival rate in dangerous terrain and make them overall better at staying alive in bad situations, but not make them too robust to fight against, especially when they're just as vulnerable to laser beams as any other crewmembers so hopefully kidan antags could just get e-gunned.

The no-eyewear weakness, while a very strong weakness, was also pretty unique, and made sense in regards to their biology, their compound eyes. My only complaint about it was that kidan's strengths didn't come close to reasonably balancing out this weakness, which is why I made this thread in the first place. The most serious problem of this weakness was how it almost totally disabled kida from the mining role, ironically. Jountax working on an "ore sense" is a welcome effort, though there's other possible ideas like creating meson eye implants, or maybe giving kidan a natural meson vision, possibly balanced out by having it only work when they stand still and toggle it on to "sense" the area around them; they are a subterranean species since their homeworld's surface is so inhospitable, so I think it would make sense for the species. There's a number of things you could try to do to work around the problem, and if implemented, I'd call the no-eyewear restriction fair so long as it was combined with a more impressive strength than minor brute resist, which is why I wanted to propose making their health hardier in general.

I think that covers all my thoughts on kidan now that it's been discussed here and on the GitHub for a while now. I hope that a consensus of some kind is reached. I hope that any change will lead to a better state for kidan than the one they're in now, so I'm looking forward to what happens, and playing as them if I like what I see.

Edited January 24, 2018 by TrainTN

[Jountax]

The thing I envision for kida is actually making their exoskeleton an exoskeleton. The bones are easier to break, but easier to fix because it would only take a topical treatment. Taking more oxyloss from bloodloss is probably pretty doable, and organ resistance already exists for the brain with brain_mod so it should be possible to extend to the other organs with a general organ_mod variable. I always intended to go on to rebalancing them more once I finally got the ore sense working since that was the most glaring flaw in my eyes. My main concern with that PR is that it was just lazy. It is my hope that we can give kida something unique and fun enough to balance out the unique downside of eyewear problems.

I'm just having a hell of a time actually learning how byond code works, all I've done so far is minor edits that I could infer from existing code, and this seems like it requires something novel.

I do think if paradise ever gets that directional vision thing some servers are experimenting with, kida should definitely keep the 360 degree vision we have now because that's what compound eyes actually do in real life.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Jountax

[TrainTN]

I do feel the same way, that kida need a unique upside to balance out their unique downside. I am totally willing to play a character who can't benefit from glasses so long as they have something interesting to compensate for it. Even if it was something simple like being harder to kill, like a cockroach, though obviously not too tough. The exoskeleton idea does sound good, I do like the idea of them being "easy to break but easy to fix" as others say of IPCs, like an organic equivalent. I agree the original PR was unsatisfying and came off as a slapdash bandage just to give kida glasses again, which I don't think would actually encourage people to play as them, since they still wouldn't have much to offer in terms of benefits. So I had hoped to take the general idea of "resilience" and expand it to give them some unique biology to set them apart. Course, I don't know the slightest thing about coding, let alone BYOND's code, so for now I'm trying to keep my suggestions grounded and relatively simple.

[pazneria12]

One thing I read for Kidan a long time ago was something to do with smells, like knowing stuff about other Kidan who have walked through the station, or other people, finding some stuff about blood and stuff like that.

[TrainTN]

57 minutes ago, pazneria12 said:

One thing I read for Kidan a long time ago was something to do with smells, like knowing stuff about other Kidan who have walked through the station, or other people, finding some stuff about blood and stuff like that.

Yes, I read suggestions of similar things, of kida leaving hidden pheromone messages for each other, or being able to read a location via scents. There's a lot of things you could do with an insect-like race, which might be making it difficult to decide what should be done, at least as a start.

I would gladly swap out the glow-in-the-dark power for something like that, though. I don't really understand why kida are bioluminescent in that way.

[Dinarzad]

18 hours ago, TrainTN said:

Yes, I read suggestions of similar things, of kida leaving hidden pheromone messages for each other, or being able to read a location via scents. There's a lot of things you could do with an insect-like race, which might be making it difficult to decide what should be done, at least as a start.

I would gladly swap out the glow-in-the-dark power for something like that, though. I don't really understand why kida are bioluminescent in that way.

I could see how they might be glowy, if they were a race of tunnel-dwellers. Like if they're so ant-like that they prefer underground environments to surface ones. Not so sure if that's legit their lore though.

[TrainTN]

5 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

I could see how they might be glowy, if they were a race of tunnel-dwellers. Like if they're so ant-like that they prefer underground environments to surface ones. Not so sure if that's legit their lore though.

The wiki says their home planet is essentially a wasteland of harsh climate as well as environmental damage from strip-mining, so the vast majority of kida live in underground hives. So that would make some sense, for a civilization more advanced than an ant farm.