Devil Mode

[flimflamm]

Devil agents were recently tested and feedback was requested, so I have compiled a list of priority fixes and changes required to make the game mode more playable, and also to suggest some in-depth modifications, and to open a discussion and suggestion thread for others to contribute to.

First let me explain and describe just what Devil Agents are for those who don't know: Several crew are secretly devil agents who have the power to offer infernal contracts to crew which grants them certain powers or abilities in exchange for their soul (not having a soul means you cannot be revived which is the only downside). The devil agents seek to acquire many souls in order to become more powerful (with objectives like outdoing fellow devil agents or to acquire certain minimum numbers of souls). Killing a Devil agent is made easy through IC knowledge of various RNG decided facts about each devil agent (such as their secret true name, a specific chemical or materiel weakness, or something they are obligated to always do) that require a lot of IC work to acquire. As devil agents get more souls, they change form and gain more abilities, eventually becoming an ascended shadowling-like god that murders everything while a 3 minute shuttle is called. The main thrust of the round centers around devils offering deals to crew via actual interesting role-play, which is why many of us would love to see the game mode enter the rotation.

Here is a list of basic fixes:

1) Solve general ressurection bugs (especially involving IPCs).

2) Replace hellfire with something more useful (non inherently violent escape mechanic preferably).

3) Replace the fireball spell (given in the magic deal) for something less accident prone.

4) Port the "friendship" deal.

5) Alter final ascension from a 3 minute shuttle + murder boning to something non-round ending (make them the ruler of the station, for instance)

6) Modify self-ressurection to force the devil agent automatically into infernal jaunt mode (if they have it) so they may escape repeated killings in the chapel (also makes the RP-IC ways of stopping them more essential).

7) apply a 1-3 minute cooldown to  the infernal contract spell to prevent devils spamming contracts to groups (especially where another devil could share in the deals) and to give time for more verbal interaction between devil and the would be contracted.

8) modify the "lust" sin-touch objective to be non-sexual (make it lust for power or something)

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The main problem with the devil agent round type as a whole is that it lacks formal structure from the perspective of security and those who have sold their soul; security won't need to valid the agents if they no longer ascend into murder-boners, but they still need a clear cut procedure for dealing with devil agents and those who have sold their soul. In general, the round devolves into chaos as people run around selling and re-selling their souls while a dumbstruck security is overwhelmed by confusion. In order to address this issue, I propose the following:

 

1) Heads of staff are the natural opposition to devil agents (in addition to the IAA and librarian). They should be able to somehow detect people who lacks a soul (if it's not obvious), not be able to sell their own soul (let's say that NT already extracted it for safe keeping!), and essentially have motivation (green-text maybe?) to prevent too many souls from being accumulated by devil agents. Because NT does own all the souls, the heads of staff should have the right to forcefully remind them where their immortal soul truly belongs (force their soul back into their body by hitting them with their employment contract). Not only does this create a core group of people interested in tracking and cataloguing devil agents, their weaknesses, and preventing ascension (which will enable significant interaction and organic RP), but it also makes clear whose job it is to take action against devil activity. Security should be able to sell their souls (save for the HoS), making them inherently neutral toward peaceful devil agents.

2) When being re-soul'd (being struck with your record of employment) you must wait 15 minutes before your soul will be actually pried away from the devil agent who bought it. During this time the devil agent will be notified of what is happening, and so may choose to try and kill you before they lose your soul. This creates a risk for those who choose to sell their soul and a bigger risk for those who want to try and exploit the devils by selling their soul multiple times. It also creates a delay timer for those who wish attempt so sell their soul multiple times, allows devils to retain individual souls longer (giving devils more of a shot to reach new forms), and slows crew power-gaming of the devil-deals overall. Because of this 15 minute delay, if the heads of staff and IAA/Librarian put effort into re-souling everyone they can find, then they can effectively prevent losing the round due to devil ascension by keeping the numbers low. When people do get hit with their RoE, and the devil decides to kill them to retain possession of it, it also provides a natural escalation for the round and legitimate reason for security to hunt and kill them if they become violent.

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Assuming the mass murderbone ending is altered, there's no legitimate reason to kill or incarcerate devil agents unless they are committing crimes or doing harm (same goes for those who have sold their soul, although NT reserves the right to cancel contracts). In the eyes of NT, devils, their magic, and their deals could be silly nonsense that the foolish crew is pretending at (again, assuming a non-violent ending), but if they do become violent may be declared EoC like anyone else. So to restate the above additional suggestions:

 

1) Give Heads of staff, IAA, Magistrate, the ability and right to force souls back into people and to tell whether or not someone has no soul.

2) have a 15 minute delay timer between being struck with your employment contract and actually regaining your soul (with a notification of what is happening)

3) provide a notification of re-souling to the devil agent who owns the soul, giving them 15 minutes to find and kill the contract breaker in order to retain the soul (should they choose to do so).

4) Give green-text status to heads of staff, IAA, and librarians who successfully prevent devil ascension by keeping soul numbers low enough

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The first set of suggestions would make the round more or less playable but the chaos problem might persist. There is an alternative mode where a single devil exists alongside other antagonists, which is obviously easier to implement into the RNG rotation, but would still require the first set of suggested fixes to be workable. The second set of suggestions adds a new layer to the game mode which I think would make it more coherent, but I would love to hear any opinions and suggestions you might have on how to address that problem!

Thoughts?

Edited November 2, 2017 by flimflamm

[ID404NotFound]

I would like there to be more clear regulations regarding tons of dipshits showing up on bridge with the captain's ID from the prestige deal, and stupid people going along with it, as well as some kind of safety for AI, as being jammed full of laws that say "<this guy> is the captain, there is no other captain than <this guy>" it's a mess.

[bryanayalalugo]

Here are my thoughts:

* Limit the amount of times a prestige contract can be given in a round. 5 + more random crew as "Captain" is a huge headache for Command and Security to deal with. For the AI law, I would say have the captain ion law be replaced with a new Captain ion law, so the AI doesn't have like 10 different Captain laws.

* Limit the amount of times a crew member can return their soul to Nanotrasen. It's annoying and crappy when a crew member just go return their soul just to re-sell it for more power. Maybe make the limit be a random number between 1 to a higher random number. That way, there is a bigger risk on selling your soul.

* Limit on who can use the Nanotrasen contracts. Crew members shouldn't just take their contract and use it whenever they sell their soul. I would say only the IAA, HoP, Magistrate and NT Rep. can use it.

* Make it so the only way devils can fully die through their bane. As of the moment, you just have to kill a devil multiple times to render it fully dead, allowing to just simply ignore the librarian and their book research. It's also not good if a devil at round start, being a even more weaker round start antag than a vampire, can end up completely dead if they are deemed to much of a threat by Security/the crew or were unlucky.

* Adjust Space Law to accommodate devils and those who sold their soul. As of the moment, there is no clear action to be done with devils (besides being assumed to be an EoC) or the people who sold their soul (especially if said people cannot be contained due to the door opener spell).

* Add/change contracts to have more of a RP use. Almost half of the contracts, when given to the regular crew, feels to encourage greytide behavior (e.g. power, prestige, magic).

* Have the contracts have a chance to have a dark/ironic twist. Besides potentially being arrested and losing all means of reviving when dying, there is nothing negative or a bad outcome after selling one soul (which one traditionally sees in fiction/myths that involves making a deal with a demon). Examples being: Wealth actually takes money from all station accounts/a important and vengeful corporation, knowledge giving you a even more dark/twisted version of the crew, prestige making you a assassination target of the Syndicate, etc.

* Have the devil have more easier means to escape, especially at round start. Devils, while the can defend themselves, are rather discouraged from attacking/killing the crew, and has less means to knock out the crew to escape. The infernal jaunt itself also takes a while to work, and uses a cool down when you activate it, not after jaunting.

* Disallow the devil themselves to take/touch a NT contract and the Gigax Codex. Both are rare, and if the devil hides it/disposes of it, there would not be any effective means to fight them.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by bryanayalalugo
Adding one more point.

[flimflamm]

5 hours ago, ID404NotFound said:

I would like there to be more clear regulations regarding tons of dipshits showing up on bridge with the captain's ID from the prestige deal, and stupid people going along with it, as well as some kind of safety for AI, as being jammed full of laws that say "<this guy> is the captain, there is no other captain than <this guy>" it's a mess.

This is a lingering concern of mine as well. I really like the idea of offering all access but we may need to change this deal to prevent the inevitable chaos of 20 captains running around.

[flimflamm]

1 hour ago, bryanayalalugo said:

Limit on who can use the Nanotrasen contracts. Crew members shouldn't just take their contract and use it whenever they sell their soul. I would say only the IAA, HoP, Magistrate and NT Rep. can use it.

I think all heads of staff in addition to the IAA/librarian should be able to do it. They need a pretty big core group to work well as an anti-devil tem. The IAA and librarian being given command headsets and the 7-8 of them all collaborating on stopping demons would be great content and RP potential.

 

1 hour ago, bryanayalalugo said:

Make it so the only way devils can fully die through their bane. As of the moment, you just have to kill a devil multiple times to render it fully dead, allowing to just simply ignore the librarian and their book research. It's also not good if a devil at round start, being a even more weaker round start antag than a vampire, can end up completely dead if they are deemed to much of a threat by Security/the crew or were unlucky.

I suggested giving them something useful other than hellfire for early round escapes, and also that when a devil agent dies and ressurects, they automatically infernal jaunt so they can escape repeated murders while making the IC librarian research much more useful.

 

1 hour ago, bryanayalalugo said:

Adjust Space Law to accommodate devils and those who sold their soul. As of the moment, there is no clear action to be done with devils (besides being assumed to be an EoC) or the people who sold their soul (especially if said people cannot be contained due to the door opener spell).

My suggestion here is that devils and soul-sellers be considered crew. The moment a devil agent or soul seller becomes violent or engages in crime, that's when security is given the nod to go to work. Legally command is permitted to force your soul back onto you, but beyond that they should require a valid IC reason to straight up valid hunt the devil agents or soul-sellers.

If we get the 15 minute soul-return timer, and the devil gets a notification that someone is attempting to regain their soul, then the devil attack on the cheating soul-seller will naturally escalate to violence and provide a cause for the librarian, IAA, and (and security too) to valid the devils.

1 hour ago, bryanayalalugo said:

* Add/change contracts to have more of a RP use. Almost half of the contracts, when given to the regular crew, feels to encourage greytide behavior (e.g. power, prestige, magic)

Some aspects of grey-tide are permitted on Paradise and since soul-touch provides the RP gimmicks, it might be better to let security deal with such people as appropriate. There are many ways to utterly restrain people (even hulks), and so sec will just have to learn!

1 hour ago, bryanayalalugo said:

* Have the contracts have a chance to have a dark/ironic twist. Besides potentially being arrested and losing all means of reviving when dying, there is nothing negative or a bad outcome after selling one soul (which one traditionally sees in fiction/myths that involves making a deal with a demon). Examples being: Wealth actually takes money from all station accounts/a important and vengeful corporation, knowledge giving you a even more dark/twisted version of the crew, prestige making you a assassination target of the Syndicate, etc.

A dark twist is an interesting idea, but might be difficult to implement. For now, selling your soul should with the risk of having it be forced back upon you by command, and then that 15 minute timer period where you know the devil may come for you. Maybe even a "Hell Hound" (where maybe a ghost is spawned into a 15 minute life-span creature whose sole purpose is to hunt a single target) could be used as a mechanic to go after soul-sellers who renege on their contract.

 

1 hour ago, bryanayalalugo said:

* Disallow the devil themselves to take/touch a NT contract and the Gigax Codex. Both are rare, and if the devil hides it/disposes of it, there would not be any effective means to fight them.

 

This is agreeable.

[flimflamm]

REGARDING STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE FOR DEVILS:

Let's consider what it is that makes valid antags valid: Wizards are murder boners, killing them means victory. Blobs same thing. Nukies same thing. We kill valid antags because their main purpose is to kill us all, generally.

Devil agents are not such an antag, and therefore should not be considered inherently valid (not even vampires and changelings are considered inherently valid as far as I know, and they are more murderous than devil agents).

Until a devil agent engages in violence or actual crime, nothing they have done is even vaguely criminal: It's not illegal to be a magic user; it's not illegal to grant magic powers to others; it's not illegal to attempt to buy and sell souls, per se. Basically devil agents should be considered crew until it is determined that they are criminal or violent, at which point the command staff + IAA and librarian can prioritize bringing down that specific devil agent.

So basically SoP should bethat devil agents are fancy crew members who when engaged in violence or crime will be subject to the law like everyone else. If a devil agent committed a crime and was sentenced to the perma-brig, and agreed to not escape (and simply offer devil deals from perma), then there would be no IC need to kill them, whatsoever. A peaceful devil (assuming the ascension murder-bone is changed) poses no serious threat to the station.

Devil agents are crew with rights seems like the best way to keep the RP elements of the game mode and preventing the valid salad while not limiting the different strategies the devil agents can employ. (If vampires can live peacefully and openly with rights as crew, why not devil agents?)

This gives options to the devil agents (do they want to live peacefully and merely achieve their objectives, or do they wish to become all powerful through ascension?) and also leaves them appropriate as a "supporting antag" where a single devil operates among traditional antags...

[bryanayalalugo]

2 hours ago, flimflamm said:

Until a devil agent engages in violence or actual crime, nothing they have done is even vaguely criminal: It's not illegal to be a magic user; it's not illegal to grant magic powers to others; it's not illegal to attempt to buy and sell souls, per se.

Crew souls are technically Nanotrasen property, so they are the least committing petty theft and at the most theft.

 

2 hours ago, flimflamm said:

If a devil agent committed a crime and was sentenced to the perma-brig, and agreed to not escape (and simply offer devil deals from perma)

The wording is confusing here, are you saying any crime would lead the to permabrig?

Security wouldn't leave a devil with regular permabrig prisoners when the devil themselves have three different contracts that would help permabrig prisoners escape.

2 hours ago, flimflamm said:

Devil agents are crew with rights seems like the best way to keep the RP elements of the game mode and preventing the valid salad while not limiting the different strategies the devil agents can employ

I would agree on this, as devils poses no problem themselves. The problem is when the crew becomes crappy/greytidy (All access, breaking down walls, constant trespassing/theft) because of the devil.

2 hours ago, flimflamm said:

(If vampires can live peacefully and openly with rights as crew, why not devil agents?)

A bit off topic on this, but I rarely see this. Either the vampire/antag in question ends up murderbony, completely abuse and break parole, or Security is just plain out following space law. The times I seen this, either Security has been merciful (which is rare) or only a select few know of the antag status. Most end up killed and forgotten or permabrigged then forgotten.

I agree that the ascension thing should be changed to be less muderboning, but with how the contracts are like themselves, devils will end up being the origin of the issues the crew bring on from the contracts.

Edited November 2, 2017 by bryanayalalugo

[Tayswift]

The problem with the captain law is that it only works with lawsets like NT Default that respect the chain of command. Otherwise, there isn't much use to it. Also, only the first person who added the law gets to be captain in the eyes of the AI.

[flimflamm]

4 hours ago, bryanayalalugo said:

Crew souls are technically Nanotrasen property, so they are the least committing petty theft and at the most theft.

I agree, and maybe incarceration for a period of time is a better penalty than having 15 minutes of fear while a devil hunts you, but since it is genuinely hard to contain a soul seller, the danger period seems like enough justice.

4 hours ago, bryanayalalugo said:

The wording is confusing here, are you saying any crime would lead the to permabrig?

No, I just meant in the instance that a devil commits a perma-worthy crime (like trying to get away with murder) and either agrees to be contained or is made to be containable (someone suggested holy handcuffs, but they might be too potent)

 

4 hours ago, bryanayalalugo said:

Security wouldn't leave a devil with regular permabrig prisoners when the devil themselves have three different contracts that would help permabrig prisoners escape.

Being uncontainable doesnt make you valid in and of itself, you need to actually try to escape, and then you're valid. On the one hand there are risks, but on the other hand when things go wrong security gets an excuse to get violent on devils and soul-sellers who use their powers for crime/escape.

 

4 hours ago, bryanayalalugo said:

I would agree on this, as devils poses no problem themselves. The problem is when the crew becomes crappy/greytidy (All access, breaking down walls, constant trespassing/theft) because of the devil.

I'm skeptical that we can keep the captaincy deal as it causes too much confusion and problems for the AI. Any suggestions for a replacement?

 

 

[flimflamm]

4 hours ago, Tayswift said:

The problem with the captain law is that it only works with lawsets like NT Default that respect the chain of command. Otherwise, there isn't much use to it. Also, only the first person who added the law gets to be captain in the eyes of the AI.

This deal should probably be modified indeed

 

 

[trexter555]

Wouldn't mind seeing more contracts, one that gives you an actual guardian (tarot deck guardian, holopara, or brood swarm), or a different version of wealth that gives you endless food. If we have more varied contracts we'll have less all-access hulk wizards.

[flimflamm]

24 minutes ago, trexter555 said:

Wouldn't mind seeing more contracts, one that gives you an actual guardian (tarot deck guardian, holopara, or brood swarm), or a different version of wealth that gives you endless food. If we have more varied contracts we'll have less all-access hulk wizards.

Aye, more contracts is a good idea. I could probably come up with a bunch of Crazylemon was interested. A katana + instant summons spell, shit like that!

 

[bryanayalalugo]

Another interesting idea is to have the devil themselves return the soul, for when the devil loses a challenge against a soulless crew member (like with the dancing/music thing some devil have) or if the devil is offered something better in exchange of a soul.

[Malphystoh]

Like..... two souls?!?!? :D

 

[bryanayalalugo]

"I will give you my soul and that of the mime's, who cannot speak for themselves, for the soul you have of the clown's"

Thinking about it, besides from a RP perspective (Such as bringing shame to someone, giving the devil more free reign, etc.), the only thing a devil would want are souls.

[flimflamm]

On 11/3/2017 at 6:27 PM, bryanayalalugo said:

"I will give you my soul and that of the mime's, who cannot speak for themselves, for the soul you have of the clown's"

Thinking about it, besides from a RP perspective (Such as bringing shame to someone, giving the devil more free reign, etc.), the only thing a devil would want are souls.

The ability to trade specific souls would be really damn epic actually, and would give some great inter devil RP opportunity!