Lets port Goon mining

[shazbot194]

So I know a lot of people are hyped up for lavaland, but I have to say, I don't think it fits in with out server. It is very combat focused with a lot of combat focused loot. It also is nearly impossible to get materials back from lavaland due to miners constantly ending up dead. But more importantly, no one is actively working on it. I think the mining system Goon has would be a much better fit to the server. It is both more focused on trying to provide materials for the station, but also encourages the miners to mine more due to them needing materials to improve/make their equipment, not just points, but a need to get a little of everything. We do have the ORM right now and it would present miners with a delema on if they should use the ore they gather to upgrade their own gear or bring it to the ORM to have science make them gear and get points from the OMR. Not to mention Goon mining is overall more interesting then our current mining. You have different materials having different properties, rock densities, hidden gems, and much more that, at least to me, making mining itself fun. Overall, I think having Goon mining would be a better mining for our server. And if you are really missing lavaland and want something like it paradise, we already have a lot of lavaland remade into our own version,  but cannot not easily port the rest, so what if we instead made a second, more hostile asteroid/belt of asteroids made to be its own and unique challenge in much the same way as lavaland does, but still have it be unique to paradise.

[Driker]

I personally would like to see this, especially if we could also get the Arc Smelter. 

[Purpose2]

Goon code isn't freely available.

We can't 'just port it'.

But it does sound good, we'd end up having to write all of it from scratch, which is a big undertaking.

[shazbot194]

1 hour ago, Purpose2 said:

Goon code isn't freely available.

We can't 'just port it'.

But it does sound good, we'd end up having to write all of it from scratch, which is a big undertaking.

While the most modern goon code isn't available, we do have the release from 2016 which could help cut back on some the the complete re-writes. And once my latest PR is done, I would be more then happy to start to work on it.

[Purpose2]

I remember there being something about people agreeing not to use the leaked code, no?

[shazbot194]

Just now, Purpose2 said:

I remember there being something about people agreeing not to use the leaked code, no?

Oh, I had completely forgot about that, my bad, I came in after this all happened so I only know second/third hand, but just because I don't fully know what happened, wasn't the code also released after the leak.

[Purpose2]

Entirely possible, I didn't pay much attention to it myself at the time.

[Fox McCloud]

Goon mining is about as mind numbing as it comes.

It's a small preset area that cycles various settings in and out and also scans them.

 

There's no combat, and hardly any of the treasures are particularly interesting or helpful. The main "hook" for miners doing their job is set of insanely powerful industrial armor that makes you immune to explosions and reduces melee damage dramatically...that and a pair of boots that lets you run around as if you were on meth, constantly. Aside from that, you typically played miner in the hopes you got antag so you could make hundreds of satchel charges and hack them..then go on a bombing spree.

 

Miners would rarely deliver materials to other departments and typically hoard all of them for themselves or ship it off to cargo for cash; sometimes mechanics (similar to R&D) would see some of them, but other departments? Fat chance.

 

Miners were directly encouraged to do their job for themselves and it ended there; our mining system encourages miners to do their job for a mutual benefit, which means all around less frustrations, a more co-operative environment, and more productivity or "wealth" for the station.

 

 The "complexity" you talk about here is really just a gating system; there's no measuring of depths or anything of that nature; there's just hardness of material, which functions the same as it does in minecraft; it prevents you from mining certain materials out the gate.

 

Furthermore, a system whereby you constantly incessantly have to adjust for depth isn't really fun; it doesn't generate any new gameplay or behaviors except introduce tedium; this was the basis of old Xenoarch; it's a prime example of complexity for complexity's sake; that's not beneficial to game design as you're essentially having the player go through steps for no other reason than the game developer wanted you to go through the steps (Bay's old and new detective systems are guilty of this as well).

 

TL;DR

Goon's mining system is dull and boring; the only interesting thing about it was giving miners blatantly overpowered gear and a powerful traitor-only kit; it furthermore is a step backwards in terms of encouraging players to co-operate with each other and for department to build on each other; the lack of risk and monotony of the job (not to mention lack of combat) also doesn't allow those who are more skilled to express that skill, in-game, versus those who are just clicking on tiles mindlessly.

 

Lavaland is the future, as it builds upon and improves on the existing systems laid forth in our current mining and improves them, allowing for a better designed experience than what we currently have (or what anyone else offers).

 

 

[Purpose2]

@Fox McCloud Mmm an interesting summary of Goon mining - something I had no experience with.

 

As for Lavaland is there anyone actively working on this? My understanding was 'no'... It is an enormous undertaking - perhaps we could work this out logically, run it as a proper project with multiple contributors working in tandem?

Edited June 17, 2017 by Purpose2

[shazbot194]

I do agree, that is an interesting summery of goon mining, but I have to say, I think /TG/ mining is even more mind numbing. The only real fun factor on /TG/ mining is combat. If we were to strip that away, we are left with asteroid clicker, which is even more dull then goon mining. Even if a lot of goon's depth is a gating system, it is something, more then what can be said about /TG/. Not to mention different tools and machines you can get with goon is interesting in of itself. Blowing up asteroids is fun, as is having large machines mine out the ultra dense ore. Yes, there are loot spawns in /TG/, but mining feels like a chore to get to loot spots or to get to combat, not the fun activity itself. Not to mention lavaland which was designed around combat.

I do regret using the word port now because it does imply replacing our mining with goon and not doing anything to upgrade it, but this isn't what I meant or what should do. Keeping a lot of what we already have and adding in content from goon could lead to some very interesting scenarios, such as having to choose between using ore in a mining autolathe for equipment upgrades, or the ORM for R&D upgrades and consumables and gear from the vendor. Maybe have a combo system, where miners only use "gems" and points in the autolathe, thus encouraging them to both mine for themselves and for the crew. Using explosive charges with a density system can lead to chooses like to try and break through though small areas of dense rock and ore or use it to break down large areas of weak ore and rock. Even in my original post, I said its more then possible to have multiple mining asteroids, so one could be as hostile as lavaland, and another as safe as east mining is now, with several others between so no-one has to be left out.

I really just want to make the mining part of mining fun, not just layer combat onto something boring and say look at that instead of your real job. I don't think porting lavaland would really help much of anything since it is meant to be combat focused, with both the loot table and mining system reflecting that. I again have to ask why is combat such an integral part of mining, instead of mining itself.

And like Purpose said, is anyone even working on Lavaland? Because I do think I will start to work on my hybrid system tonight.

[necaladun]

Fox gives some good experience with goon mining there, and porting it really isn't that easy.

Lavaland is a huge work, and slowly being chipped away at, but many changes need to be done before it's anywhere near ready.

Sadly that's left us with an in between of people not touching mining in case of lavaland,

 

Honestly, mining is currently more detailed and exciting than it's ever been, and I don't think needs to be that much better. (Back in myyyy dayyy there weren't even hostile mobs or rewards!).

 

However, new cool ideas are always welcome. But a full thing like porting goonmining doesn't seem the best approach.