[Adjusting rev conditions]

RE: https://nanotrasen.se/forum/topic/9467-carp-spawned-on-me-to-force-the-round-to-end/

If a head is off z-level (already implemented), OR they are in an area that is "space" (in code), then they should count towards revs winning until they get back on the station.

Tzo said that a blown out floor is not an area called space, so this shouldn't cause a problem if they walk over such an open tile.

That should solve these issues.

EDIT: I now support this suggestion: https://nanotrasen.se/forum/topic/9765-adjusting-rev-conditions/#

[PAI interaction]

As a suggestion, allow pais to have data cables plugged into consoles by their master, limited to a certain range, so they can interact with consoles. Being a warden's or NT rep's pai for example, would help them keep records. Or perhaps, the PAI could interact with laptops. Walking outside of that range causes them to lose connection, but walking back within range reestablishes. Plugging it into a different console causes them to lose the first connection.

Plugging in the cable would require the PAI's master to have access, as well.

I'd really like to see PAI functionality expanded elsewhere as well (limited by masters access), but let's start with this.

Eventually, I'll address the whole "budget death alarm" bit in a future suggestion, once i figure out exactly how that should be approached. The biggest complaint seems to be that PAIs can't be seen, and secondly, they can't be EMPed in bags and pockets.

[Bridge XO]

 

Here's my thoughts on it.

 

The XO WOULD be a command position, HAVE the authority of the captain, EXCEPT where the captain has judged. Full access, full comms, full authority; except where executions or certain things require the captain himself (or acting captain).

 

The XO will likely be a boring job most of the time. But, when it rains, it pours. I accept that Paradise is NOT Colonial Marines, but I have played captain a few times where I really REALLY wished I had a second in command to handle some of the chaos.

 

Here's what I believe the benefits of that position will be:

 

- There's now clearly two commanding officers. Para is often chaos. This might help stabilize some of it.

- They share the load, and the responsibilities.

- Captain can attend executions more freely like he is supposed to.

- Can make an SoP that requires one of the two commanding officers to remain on the bridge at all times, with nuke disk under guard. If you have a really coked out captain that likes to walk everywhere, then the disk is always in a predictable place.

- Frees up the captain a bit to move about the station without carrying the disk on him at all times.

 

An XO would also make it reasonable to possibly consider whitelisting the captain, and requiring him to follow SoP. His presence will carry a lot more weight as a result. His word and orders would mean much more than it does now. To make a point, on CM (again, I accept that this is not CM, it's para, but hear me out), I walked into a room where there was trouble going on. The MPs had called me there. My presence alone carried a TON of weight, and immediately the issues quieted down. When I spoke, people intently listened, and the issue was de-escalated.

 

As for the HoP: they need to stay at their post, or be checking if cargo and service are operating properly. I wish we could expand this position a little bit more with background checks and such too so that there would be a bit more of a 'game' to people trying to transfer to other departments or claim they are someone else.

 

I really think this warrants some playtesting at least, to see what it would do in rounds. I intend to playtest an XO a few times, asking admins if I may promote someone, or they can be sent in an official manner from CC, to test the dynamics.

 

[Change ALL vents to internal pressure checks]

 

After testing and codediving, shadey is correct. MinOverpressurizing though, I have linked to temperature. While a room is slowly filling, the vents will never push out pressure higher than their setting under any circumstance, but there are cases where a room is still astoundingly cold. The air alarms will heat the tile they are on, which raises the pressure, and cascades throughout the room while the vents are pumping in. It's not severe however.

 

That said, it may be useful that scrubbers would also have a pressure check, and would slowly drain overpressures until they hit their target setting if at atmospheric alert is triggered (not a caution, an ALERT). In this manner, an area can be kept in a safe zone, but not cause a huge amount of fluctuation.

 

[A 'busy' icon]

Boxing gloves. Can beat them senseless but it's non lethal, so no rule break.

["Rage Cage" rules suggestion]

Personally, I don't mind rage cages. I think instead however, that it be handled with guidelines. I'm not entirely sure how a "rage cage" SoP writeup would fit with space law though... but it IS consensual combat to the death and I don't think it's up to space law to deny it. Participants must have their name signed on any mutual combat agreements, ensuring security and command knows of its existence, and medbay being allowed to refuse service would be the key points in such a procedure before it can be put to use.

[Change ALL vents to internal pressure checks]

 

If internal setting works like the way I said above, then ZAS would also benefit from it.

I can't even think of a reason not to use the internal setting.

 

[Change ALL vents to internal pressure checks]

 

This assumes "internal" means they check the pressure of their tile, and stop pumping when it's close to one atmosphere.

 

Changing all vents to internal by default, in all settings, and on the map, means a few things:

 

- We don't need an air alarm in every single little room or on both sides of every single divider. At present, a vent in a room without an air alarm will keep pumping air when the local zone's air alarm triggers. The pressures will reach obscene levels.

- Stops the oscillating pressure fluctuations that are caused by the slow equalization of LINDA.

- Plays better with LINDA, period.

 

[A 'busy' icon]

Followed by an "lol I beat the shit out of you" magnet.

[A 'busy' icon]

 

I really don't think it's an issue. A minor annoyance maybe but just something that has to be dealt with, usually in the form of moving away from busier areas.

 

It's actually quite an annoying thing, and sometimes an important issue because we're busy trying to seal walls up as engineers, and people walk right into us. It happens regularly.

 

I'd prefer my later idea of anchoring and preventing people from walking through unless they force it.

 

[A 'busy' icon]

 

Alright, good points, so a new approach then: performing an action prevents you from being shoved (anchoring). If you REALLY need to get past someone who is in the middle of something, disarm to interrupt, trigger a momentary cool down before that person can continue working. The other person gets a message "They are working, go around or shove through them!"

 

Certain actions like breaking cuffs won't anchor.

 

[A 'busy' icon]

 

Problem: People bump you.

 

Solution: A simple icon, maybe an hourglass, that shows to everyone else when you're working on a timed task so they know NOT TO BUMP INTO YOU.

 

[Gateway Explorer as Karma Role]

 

/signed

 

But if this happens, give eva suit lockers in the gateway room instead of EVA access.

 

[Cloning memory disorder should be a requirement]

 

Okay so to avoid a wall of text and playing a 12 hour game of buzzword, going try to keep this short.

 

If you die, you're dead. You aren't coming back unless some one else brings you back and it's not a straw man argument to suggest the person won't be cloned, as it happens often. If an Antag can kill without having to worry about the person remembering them, they will be more apt to kill which is ironically creating more dead people. Those dead people need to DEPEND on a medbay to get brought into the round. Cremated or not, they could literally still rot the entire round and this does happen, quite often on 100+ rounds.

 

Alright, NOW I see how you are trying to connect the two together. You didn't mention increasing the body count and overwhelming the cloner; you had only spoke about whether or not a body is recovered and cloning is even being done, which is why I called it a strawman. That said though: I still think you're blowing it out of proportion though, and a person running around indiscriminately killing is still going to dramatically increase their risk of being caught. Personally, I find such wildly violent antags get caught in the act rather than someone launching out of a cloner pointing the finger at them.

 

Time was mentioned because you say you forget your killer but what happens when sec asks you "Who was the last person you saw?" Now how much of your memory is erased, at which point are you safe to recall? This great lack of detail will lead to unintentional rule breaking and unneeded confusion.

 

It certainly wouldn't be the killer as an answer. It's fair enough to say you were last heading to SW solars to work on wiring them... then it's a blur. Or, in another example, lets say your boss asks you to come along and help, to which they brutally murder you after a few minutes when the opportunity finally presents itself. Perfectly fine to state you were working on a project with them... then nothing.

 

That said, yes, asking who you last saw could result in shitlisting a co-worker in the above case... but this won't work in all cases either, the wrong person can inadvertently get shitlisted and waste time quite often too as different people will answer the question differently, so it has its own built in anti-valid.

 

The idea is that when the stress levels increase, that's around the time that CMD would kick in. The whole point would be pretty obvious though with the right message in the cloner, such as "You've forgotten the details of your killer and events leading up to it. Details are a blur. You're not even sure if you can remember what you were doing before your death."

 

Finally, probably the most important point of this whole argument.

A majority of players do not want this for the perfectly valid reasons we provided against it, and the fact that this is more of a heavy RP mechanic. We are against for making people play stupid and only enforce medium RP, not bay level of memory forgetting.

 

I wish to know the method that you are using to count "the majority". :-). But, should this be true, that's all that needs to be said!

 

What do you consider "heavy RP" vs "medium RP"?

 

Your cause is noble, to keep more people alive during a round, but this will ironically only further promote murder and more sloppy antag behavior.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with this. I'd love to see it played out in practice to see what happens before coming to that conclusion.

 

[Cloning memory disorder should be a requirement]

 

I think you completely missed the point of this thread. Enforcing CMD removes a huge chunk of the incentive for antags to permanently remove a player from the round; but it is not for the purpose of making an antag's job easier, but rather allowing a player a far greater chance of returning to the game in the role they wanted to play. That's pretty much the reason why I hide or space bodies; because I don't know if they are going to launch out of the cloner ready to scream my name. That's my reason for wanting CMD.

 

 

Enforcing CMD REMOVES incentive to murder? As soon as people realize they can kill and not have to worry about that person remembering their killer, people will indiscriminately murder, as long as it's within the rules, and won't have to worry about being ratted out. And just because the person's body isn't spaced/cremated, doesn't mean they will come back. They are still dead. You are assuming medbay will be competent and on point for cloning which is not always the case during a round.

 

I did not say it removes the incentive to murder. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said permanent removal from the round. That means cremation, spacing, etc. In addition, the server rule already states that unnecessary murder will get you banned, so this part of your argument is nonsense.

 

On the note of medbay being competent: This is a strawman argument, and whether or not medbay is competent does nothing to affect CMD or its incentives. Yes it affects whether or not someone is cloned, but I'm not arguing medbays competency or cloning capability.

 

In addition, someone mentioned walking into the antag only to get killed again: that's an interesting point, and perhaps CMD would allow a character to still feel extraordinary dread, though they don't know why, when they are near that character. Depending on your interpretation of CMD, you could say the final moments are such a traumatic event that a character's mind hasn't resolved the events, so it's just a blur, but they still feel dread.

 

 

How would we enforce this? What would this 'extraordinary dread' entail for the person? Would this person be so scared of that person that they would tase them on sight or attack them on sight, and if we say that isn't allowed, what is the person allowed to do? Avoid them like the plaque and start pointing at them and screaming obscenities at them? That will just make it obvious they are the killer and then security, if it's code red, can search on the basis of 'random search.'

And how much before the point of death do you actually remember, ten minutes, fifteen minutes? What happens if you were conversing with the person for 20 before they killed you and you said 'I saw them before everything went black.' Doesn't that negate the whole flawed concept of enforcing CMD?

 

In my mind, it would mean being cautious of them. An uneasyness. If they walk into the room, you can roleplay your character feeling the need to leave or be on guard around them. It doesn't have to make sense to the character, the character just knows they are not comfortable.

 

The only reason I care about CMD, is removing that incentive of destroying any chance of a player returning to the role they wanted to play. I don't really care for the whole existential crisis thing that some servers push, I only care about giving people a chance to resume their role.

 

As mentioned earlier, this game has death in it and that's that really. You are going to die some rounds and that is how the game works, at least one person is going to die every round. There is no avoiding this concept because this game is based around chaos and death. And to reiterate the point again, just because you aren't space or cremated, you are still dead meaning you are out of the round until some one drags you to medbay. And this doesn't always happen.

 

What does death, chaos, and competence have to do with this debate for CMD? You've drifted from the topic at hand and are attacking positions I have not made, but I'll bite to make a point: While I would love to have competent people recover the body quickly, it certainly is a lot easier if the body isn't lost in space.

 

We already do for thralls, deculted, un-reved, etc, rendering your argument arbitrary. It already works except for the occasional turd. People can also come back as borgs, ERT, maintenance drones, pAIs, NPCs, etc, and it's not a huge issue there either.

 

A cloner message in BIG FUCKING LETTERS telling the cloning person how CMD works would go a long way towards reducing the amount of problems and getting people accustomed to such a rule change, and a cloner message is already there; it merely need be modified with this new information. It is next to 0 effort to implement.

 

It's not the same situation because instead of being removed from a cult and simply forgetting all the cult things you saw and learned, you need to remember exactly ten minutes before your death and forget it. But then people may incorrectly remember nine minutes as twelve minutes and believe their statements of who killed them is legit and doesn't break any rules. Now we are bwoinking people over minutes worth of information that can be genuinely incorrectly remembered.

 

Why are you packaging all of this as though it must be a specific number of minutes? What I said was flat out simple: you can't remember your killer or the method of death. I didn't say anything about time, you're inventing positions to attack that I have not taken.

 

And again, what will this dread thing entail? The Antag may complain the victim is remembering to much by acting odd towards them and then the victim will try to justify they should feel jittery next to this person all the while tipping sec off who will perform some random searches. Now you got an antag complaining about being metagamed and then you need to decide which is legit, the victim acting as he did or the antag stating the victim shouldn't have had acted that way. It opens up a new plethora of problems we will have to deal with and quite honestly, not a ton of people want to see implemented anyway.

 

Now you've said something that is a good point; and I argue it's something that the antags will factor in anyways. For example: if I'm a changeling, I'm going to space people anyways because it's certainly going to raise eyebrows when there are two of you walking around! Or if it's a coworker, I'm probably not going to keep them around anyways as there's probably a damn good reason they got knocked off in the first place (maybe they were too nosy!). These are merely provided as examples however, and neither of these things have anything to do with CMD.

 

Anyways, you're right, there's a line that would have to be drawn on what is reasonable and what isn't when avoiding your murderer. But it shouldn't be too terribly hard: a scientist clearly crying out on comms that they are scared of the RD (their murderer) is beating around the bush and is obvious meta. Someone from medbay who is having problems going near their patient and always has their guard up around them however, is subtle and adds a lot of RP value. Yes security could metagame and realize that guy is probably the killer, but it's on the antag to account for this.

 

Just as well, what stops someone from becoming a borg and metagaming them? It's the same problem that doesn't seem to be as severe as you are playing it up to be.

 

This isn't about changing the rules and stating that antags aren't allowed to space people, this is a subtle but far reaching proposal that can and does change a lot of the antag dynamics. People get spaced either because of an objective, or because the victim could point out their killer the moment the pop out of the cloner. Leaving evidence behind is definitely a factor but I've never heard anyone state that as their primary motivation for sending someone into the cold black void.

 

It's also part of most games, and there's no contention there. But, we also have the ability to come back, which is also part of the game. CMD is in the interest of players to continue enjoying the game in the role they wish to play without removing death altogether, which I argue is an enhancement to gameplay.

 

 

The person is still dead. The antag will most likely still hide the body to keep alert levels down. This literally just gives antags a getaway card for when sec finds the body, they have nothing to go off when the person is cloned besides any DNA the killer /might/ have left behind.

 

As opposed to spacing them and making them irrecoverable anyways (thus leaving nothing for sec regardless)? This isn't about making rules against spacing, and getting rid of any evidence is a perfectly acceptable reason. This is strictly to focus on removing the motivation of making bodies irrecoverable due to CMD.

 

Hell, when I play antag, I would LOVE to leave bodies find-able so a person can play again as their character. However, I don't because I can't be sure they won't come out of the cloner screaming curses at me.

 

Finally, security shouldn't be brigging people based on word alone anyways! I know it happens, but it's also something clever antags take advantage of too (and DO!).

 

[Cloning memory disorder should be a requirement]

 

Your target needs to be dead when the shuttle docks for you to greentext.

 

Agreed completely on objective assassinations (to which there is no change of incentive with CMD), but if you just happen to "be in the way"? Or they need to steal your access (to which murder is pretty convenient in a lot of cases)?

 

I like the idea of clone testimony not being valid, but we all know that won't really work.

Forcing people to play stupid is something I do not want to see on this server.

 

We already do for thralls, deculted, un-reved, etc, rendering your argument arbitrary. It already works except for the occasional turd. People can also come back as borgs, ERT, maintenance drones, pAIs, NPCs, etc, and it's not a huge issue there either.

 

A cloner message in BIG FUCKING LETTERS telling the cloning person how CMD works would go a long way towards reducing the amount of problems and getting people accustomed to such a rule change, and a cloner message is already there; it merely need be modified with this new information. It is next to 0 effort to implement.

 

I'm not too keen on the idea of enforcing any cloner specific RP behavior, sounds stupid and like a massive pain in the ass.

 

As above, we already do similarly for thralls, deculted, un-reved, etc. It's not even a stone's throw away to adopt.

 

Also, dying is a part of the game.

 

It's also part of most games, and there's no contention there. But, we also have the ability to come back, which is also part of the game. CMD is in the interest of players to continue enjoying the game in the role they wish to play without removing death altogether, which I argue is an enhancement to gameplay.

 

[Cloning memory disorder should be a requirement]

 

It's perfectly fine as it is now.

Antags just need to do a better job at making sure bodies aren't revived if they don't want to be ratted out.

 

I think you completely missed the point of this thread. Enforcing CMD removes a huge chunk of the incentive for antags to permanently remove a player from the round; but it is not for the purpose of making an antag's job easier, but rather allowing a player a far greater chance of returning to the game in the role they wanted to play. That's pretty much the reason why I hide or space bodies; because I don't know if they are going to launch out of the cloner ready to scream my name. That's my reason for wanting CMD.

 

On other notes:

 

I do like the idea of simply requiring sec to have evidence instead of just word of mouth, but that still leaves the incentive to destroy or space the body as it's just plain easier. I'd still prefer CMD in full strength though, and if someone comes out of the cloner screaming their killer's name, then they are ignored, chalking it up to a cloning malfunction.

 

In addition, someone mentioned walking into the antag only to get killed again: that's an interesting point, and perhaps CMD would allow a character to still feel extraordinary dread, though they don't know why, when they are near that character. Depending on your interpretation of CMD, you could say the final moments are such a traumatic event that a character's mind hasn't resolved the events, so it's just a blur, but they still feel dread.

 

The only reason I care about CMD, is removing that incentive of destroying any chance of a player returning to the role they wanted to play. I don't really care for the whole existential crisis thing that some servers push, I only care about giving people a chance to resume their role.

 

[Cloning memory disorder should be a requirement]

 

Hello all!

 

I had been making this discussion on discord, and finally got around to throwing it up on here.

 

Per the title, cloning memory disorder should be a requirement. It removes the incentive to permanently dispose of bodies (except where it is an objective to do so), and Baystation puts it very succinctly why:

 

This is to keep things a little more sane in-round should antagonists aim for murdering crew members and to help keep things interesting and more fun for all involved. Otherwise this means antagonists would have to permanently remove people from rounds by disposing their corpses to avoid being found out.

 

I also believe using Strange Reagent, or a brain transplant where death has been longer than the defib limit, would induce the disorder. Only successful defibrillation would allow a person to retain their memories. It would also make CPR much more important!

 

From a coding standpoint, nothing really NEEDS to be done, but I would highly suggest a text blob that informs a newly cloning person the rules of CMD. Same with being SR'd, it would display the text blob.