davidchan
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Posts posted by davidchan
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29 minutes ago, tiredbum said:
I mean, while I agree with this not turning into tg, what you say about antags is simply not true. It is EXTREMELY rare for a caught antag to not be executed, and if you're argument is that "It's a POSSIBILITY they won't be killed" then that is pretty weak
Re-read space law. Murder and Mutiny are the only two crimes Security may legally execute a prisoner over, and they still need the explicit approval from the Captain or Magistrate to carry out that execution. EoC was removed from space law a long time ago
QuoteIf the Enemy of the Corporation has not committed any Capital Crimes (see below), they are to be placed in Permanent Imprisonment (Permabrig/Solitary/Labor Camp). Otherwise, Execution is permitted, at the discretion of the Magistrate. If no Magistrate has been assigned, or is otherwise unable to authorize an execution, the Captain may authorize execution in accordance to Legal Standard Operating Procedure. Possession of Contraband alone is not enough to warrant an execution.
Shadowlings, Changelings, Hostile Wizards and Fully Powered Vampires are an exception to this, but only if there is no real means to contain them or non-lethally detain them. Antags that do fight back with lethal force can be killed as per SOP though it's still frowned upon if there are other viable options (cultist and thralls can be deconverted, for example.)
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7 minutes ago, Coldflame said:
that's not an argument
It is. Look at the tg community and look at the paradise community. They aren't in the same category. tg allows blatant killing of other players over minor inconveniences when either side won't back down, and antags almost always go full lethal since they know they are going to be permanently removed from a round if caught. Their rules allow and practically encourage shitty behavior with no RP, and the admins have to come up with shitty excuses why to ban someone who is clearly making the server less fun for other people, just look at their appeals forum.
I don't agree with all of paradise's rules but they serve a purpose and they send a clear signal from the staff to the community on how behavior, rp and gameplay is acceptable. Antags are still people on paradise, only the most violent and dangerous antags are killed while those that can be safely contained and transported back to CC for debriefing are captured and kept alive because ICly they are more valuable to NT if the info they possess can be extracted. Giving sec/crew the right to kill any outed antag is only going to increase valid hunting behavior while making RP drop in quality and frequency -
If you want tg rules go play on tg.
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While I certainly don't agree with OP's proposed new role, and wouldn't be the least upset if the brig phys got removed from the brig or cut entirely, I do feel that at least part of the drive for more mixed department job slots is an attempt to get more people to play in a department, specifically Security as on high pop rounds even a full security dept can feel vastly outnumbered and unable to aptly do their jobs. If the server pop continues to rise we will eventually have to add jobs/job slots to various departments just to accommodate the growth.
Problem is, ever since security got loyalty ensured detectives, brig phys, IAA/Lawyers they've felt entitled as a department to have people garunteed never to have antag motives to kill them, and the sacred green square on their SecHUD to always ensure such loyalty.
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flash memes
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1 hour ago, Norwest said:
Let's compare the two for a second. Yes, vampires are pretty bullshit, and I wouldn't mind some of their more ridiculous abilities getting a nerf (Glare's 30-second cooldown getting bumped up to 60, for instance - I'm really sick of the constant stuns from even low-level vamps I'm trying to perma). But compare vampire abilities to shadowling ones (see my post on pg. 1):
~Snip~
To summarize: You can attrite even a full-powered vampire down to the point of helplessness and eventually death. Their large-scale abilities all have significant cooldowns, and cost them blood which is difficult to replace on the move. Keep up the pressure, keep inflicting hard-to-heal damage, don't let them stop to recuperate, and even a god-tier vampire can (and often has) been taken out. I commanded an ERT which did exactly that against a bunch of rampaging vampires a day ago: my two inquisitorial ERT members set their sights on one of the nastiest vamps, and just keep doggedly pursuing him until he was literally and figuratively out of juice. Once he couldn't use the bulk of his abilities for lack of blood, he was vulnerable and brought to a straight-up conflict: 2 chainswords, 1 vamp.
Shadowlings are effectively immune to attrition: they don't depend on a limited resource a la vampires or changelings, and they're specifically designed to be immune to lasting damage. With 'slings, the shoe's on the other foot: any pursuer is constantly forced to heal again and again, because shadowlings have oodles of AoE-damage abilities which they can (and do) pop every minute or less. As a pursuer, you can feel like you're inflicting lasting harm against a vampire even if they just mistform away: you're forcing them to waste their scarce blood, and that's a sense of accomplishment even if you don't land a single hit. With a 'sling, you'll be left limping away towards warmth, with the knowledge that nothing will really slow down a shadowling short of a serious case of death. Shadowlings aren't just mechanically difficult to fight against, they're infuriating to boot.
You're going to pretend that Thralls are infinite resource and Slings can run forever, when a typical vampire can easily get 5000 blood or more by draining the blood they can practically get for free from genetics? To top this all off, Slings take heavy damage from common light sources like flares that can't be veiled, every emergency toolkit has these, candles in the chapel and library and random spawns throughout maint will kill a Sling faster than the chapel can kill a low level vamp.
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We'll agree to disagree since Slings have numerous stats that work against them if the crew even bothers to fight back. Could their powers be toned down or reworked to make things play out better? Yes of course, are they worse than vamps? Not by a long shot.
Vamps have a retarded number of abilities drawn from changeling and wizard lists, from mist form, to 3 different stuns they can use while prone and cuffed, x-rays they can unlock basically for free, true form removes almost all their weakness, something slings don't get till they literally won the game and the round is coming to an end.
Edit: As far as sling balance goes, Thralls just need a rework so they are disoriented in bright light, or otherwise move slower. Exposures to bright lights (engineering lamps and such) should be how to deconvert them, not surgery. That or coming up with some radium cocktail or ground up glowshroom. Would allow NT loyalists to use light sources as weapons against thralls and slings alike, and make it even more important for thralls to snuff out all light sources they can find.
Veil could use a longer cooldown, or if the coders can make it work dim lights down a few lumen levels so flashlights turn off for 5-10 seconds before turning back on, while brighter sources of light just dim down to a few tiles before restoring themselves. Global cooldowns shared between slings on certain abilities would be good as well, encouraging sec/crew to assault multiple lings at once since if one ling panics and uses all their abilities, the other would be stuck on cooldown themselves and easier to defeat. Forcing certain stronger abilities to require a second ling or number of thralls to function properly would be good as well, having thralls enter a 'channel' state where they can't move or talk but empower nearby sling abilities, but rendering them defenseless to anyone trying to break up the thrall ball.
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Can someone explain to me why Shadowling, a roundtype that's at least fun to play in any of the roles involved with the struggle, is suddenly becoming hated and reviled despite multiple departments having the means and tools to limit or fight back against the slings, when roundtypes like vampire exist with blatant power gaming, mismatched kit, entirely unfun to combat and no real weaknesses?
The fact that there is at least 1 PR up right now trying to nerf Slings when not a damn person has touched vampire as of now is troubling.
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You're forgetting that an e-sword can be disarmed and used against the traitor, which is partially why it's allowed to be so powerful. Carp has no such downside and not factoring that into 'but DE-sword does this!' argument is plain ignorance.
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carp and vampire probably represent two of the worst kinds of game design for SS13, both need to be looked and and tweaked accordingly. Carp shouldn't be more than 50% given that it triples your unarmed attack (effectively welder punches) and gives you a bunch of speshul moves including two garunteed disarms and two stuns, plus a massive damage to anyone prone or in crit finisher.
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6 hours ago, McRamon said:
Never had any issues with lockdown as a borg before, but maybe only hacked borgs should have that option? Since normal borgs should not try to hack the lockdown
If the lockdown is against their laws (which they usually are) then they definitely should. The sheer power that console has is ridiculous, its little wonder many AIs who are malf, hacked or otherwise not trusting the crew make sure that console disappears. With the number of weaknesses and handicaps borgs have, super-unbreakable-remote-buckle-cuffing should not be one of them.
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Could have a backdoor resist option, once the lockdown starts the Borg's internal CPU restarts and begins to override or bypass locked out circuits until it can retake control and restore movement? I'd argue 5 minutes but having been locked down and only passively questioned for nearly 30 minutes with nothing to is pretty painful, and if you open a new tab and entertain yourself people assume you're afk or SSD and just let you gather dust in the corner. Lockout definitely shouldn't be super-bucklecuff when self destruct exists.
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11 hours ago, Threeinone said:
Only the most embarrassing and inept cluwnes use 'henk'. The answer is obvious.
So... good clowns say henk then, since it's their job to be embarrassing, inept and funny.
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They are both equally pleasing to hear the clown stutter out when you toolbox him for trying to steal your shoes.
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Sec Tech is bad idea imo. I've been saying for a while now that Detective and Brig Phys need to be physically removed from the Brig, keep them close by maybe, but not in their perimeter. The more stuff security has, the more likely they are to withdraw to their little sec haven and wait out any major disasters (Rev and Nations come to mind, but even Cult and Sling rounds have this in spades.)
Security keeps defaulting to this 'Us vs Them' attitude that makes them stomp all over non-sec/non-head roles and ignore anything that isn't valids.
Having Non-Head Roles from various departments with round start privileges to go into the brig is good on paper, but they shouldn't be loyalty implanted and HoS should not be their boss.
@Fox McCloud What if the server made some Heavy Duty APCs that had extra Power Cells inside (Mini-SMES effectively) and things like Cloner and Cryotubes (and arguably the Lathes) had significantly increased power drains so they'd never complete a proper cloning on a regular APC? If someone wants an All-In-One fort they need to put in the extra effort of upgrading the wiring and Powernet in their area to make use of it?
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Condition; it will always be in the pocket of your pants still in the washer.
Power: To be so strong I can throw cars into space.
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Condition is that you always generate electricity, discharging it into anything and everything you touch, electrocuting people even with a handshake and frying all electronic devices just by holding them.
I wish for the ability to convince anyone to agree with my opinion or point of view.
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The examples given were just to set the tone. The idea being that someone wants those items, and needs them quickly so they will compensate for them well. "A man will pay $2 dollars for a $1 item he needs now", of course the deal should not always be a good deal, and the entire point of the suggestion was to get things exported by cargo they normally wouldn't. Air Canisters, uniforms, circuits, plants, body parts, ect...
And as also noted, this deals should have a short expiration date. Cargo needs to move fast to take advantage of them if they want the reward, and not all of them should be feasible as the lore wise the request would have been sent to all stations or vessels in the area, not just the Cyberaid.
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I'd be in favor of a bounty system for Cargo. Every 10-20 minutes Cargo gets a CC request or third party trader wants a specific item that may or may not be on the station. The QM/Cargo Office console will kick out a sheet with the request with the following information:
(Station) Time of the Request.
Who is requesting it (Anything from CC, one of the Syndicate companies, or any third party trader)
What they want (Item name specifically)
How much of it they want.
How much the bounty reward of supply points or items that will be on the next cargo shuttle arriving at the station will contain.
QM and Cargo would have to decide if its worth sending things out, so a request for 5 laser rifles in return for 100 points might not be worth it, but a package of 15 warm donk pockets for 8 pairs of magboots might be. High Priority requests should be announced to the entire station, but otherwise a cargo notice should just be pinged with directions to seek out the request form in their office for more details.
This would also open the door for raiders or pirates hoping to blackmail and extort the station, demanding random items or even piles of cash equaling up to a certain value, and if the request is not fulfilled they either send a boarding crew to take what they can or fire upon specific parts of the station (I.E. export 50 gold bars with no supply cost or pirates will fire upon escape, roughly the equivalent of 10 meteors smashing into shuttle dock, and so on. Pirates could be NPCs that just go nuts or mid round antags who's ship clamps onto a random external access point and gives the players a message they have 300 seconds to bring as much loot back to the pod and escape or fail the raid.)
Given that many players in cargo try to operate a trading post wanting money or items in exchange for what is requested, this would at least give assistants and other players wanting to get something from cargo, while also giving the techs something to do when the departments become self sufficient.
Alternatively, the ability for Cargo to order 'services' for the station would be neat. A celebrity or friendly non-crew (admin spawned, essentially) paying a visit or helping about the station, or even the ability to pay for a Custodial Response Team or similar non-combat related support roles or borgs could be an interesting use of surplus points. (Though come to think of it, using Cargo Points to order ERTs and being able to spend extra points to request additional member slots or getting them better starting gear would also be neat.)
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2 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:
Placing security into each department tends to create a lot of problems.
Giving every officer access to a single department ends very badly.
It makes things a lot more frustrating for antags, too.
I get that we want to promote more security and fun for those playing it, but this feature generally tends to cause problems. I've had quite a bit of experience with said feature.
I'd respectfully disagree with these points. Though, department guard should be a seperate job akin to Pod Pilot, having specific duties outside the regular security force and thus not diverting manpower away from standard patrols.
For antags, it can be frustrating but it's not impossible to get around, and in some cases it makes things easier for an antagonist to get ahold of security gear or identities as the engineering guard for example is not likely to be with in earshot of others.
The only problems I see on any repeated basis with dept guards is that said guards sometimes try to take over their department and do the job for the people they are watching over. Otherwise most people I talk to and play with approve of the dept guards especially on high pop rounds.
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I don't think I've ever seen such a misrepresentative video review of a video game ever before. That kid clearly had his jimmies riled over a corrupt save or something, he could spin EA as being the best publisher ever.
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You're basically comparing an expansion pack to the original, I sure a shit hope the expac is better.
Though if I'm being honest, I have more fond memories of 3 than I do of NV, with the story of NV being no where near as good as people crack it up to be. FO3 had a dumb story, but there is no context that makes NV feel natural to me.
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4 minutes ago, dapocalypse said:
Why not give sec an adrenal implant at round start.
Why not fix vampires so their abilities make sense?
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Want to make more people play security? It needs a lot of changes.
1) Security Checkpoints / Departmental Security - These used to be pretty key on full pop rounds as 1-2 security members assigned to each department gave them eyes and ears within the department, aided their response time relevant to those departments, and gave Security ambassadors to mingle with the various departments to help deter the 'US vs THEM' mentality that has taken hold. They also gave some manner of RP potential for players in slow rounds that haven't snowballed yet as security most often gets yelled at for sitting in one area and socializing.
2) Less Bullshit Antagonists. - Various antagonists get abilities that make security gear useless or don't play by the same rules as most other mechanics. Vampires are by far the worst in this category, as their AOE stun has no counters; helmets, bowmans and glasses don't protect against it, they can rejuvenate out of stuns AND astral jaunt even when stunned, in addition to almost all their abilities being usable while stunned or cuffed. Changelings similarly get low effort moves that bypass stuns and cuffs. What is a security officer's motivation to continue playing their role when 1 in 3 rounds seems to face them against an antagonist that even when they do everything right, they can't win unless the antagonist slips up? We aren't even talking valid hunting sec getting dunked. We are talking casual patrols through main hallways and going from full health to dead in under 5 seconds because powercreeped antag wanted some murderbones.
3) Progression. - Security has very little improvements over the course of a round. Their gear is about as good as they are going to get, they can't unlock better tasers for example, no do they have the means to get better encryption for their headsets so syndies/nukes can't just listen in. Some form of system needs to be implemented so that for each valid arrest and sentencing, Security is allocated some resources that can be spent in department to improve their facilities and gear. Whether this is a contraband disassembler that converts syndie gear into security only supply points or some flags in the code that track when individual players commit certain actions that might be considered crimes and clears those flags after that person sits in a brig cell for 30+ seconds (based on crime.) If security is given actual.
4) Better processing. - Updating the processing so their terminal can just select from a list of applicable crimes and they can fill in the descriptions afterwards would go a long way. Clown broke a few windows and stole buckets from botany, Warden/Officer can open up the Security Records and hit those buttons and add the descriptor later. When the clown is brigged then they can just import the records and the timer will auto set to the recommended minimum time for Security to adjust as needed. Suddenly it doesn't take a minute or two just to punch in all the information needed to get the timer to start.
5) More variance in Security Equipment. - Think mining. Several loadouts might be available to officers that give different play/combat styles a chance to arise. Instead of a taser they can take a short range blaster that stuns and blinds the target temporarily, but can only be shot 3 tiles and takes a moment to recharge. A powered frame that can be worn instead of a security vest that improves movespeed and melee stats, but offers no protection and needs a powercell in the exostorage slot to use (making it EMP vulnerable too), a phalanx vest/mechanic that allows officers to offer some degree of protection to someone standing next them. stun-chucks that has less charge than a stun prod but gives melee block and counter stun while it still has charge. A grapple that allows them grab someone at range and reel them in if they can't resist out of the grab. If we gave Security a list of options just half as exhaustive as the Syndicate Traitor selection, you'd see people flocking to play officers and coordinating as a team so their gear synergizes well.]
make antags oocly valid if they attack someone
in Suggestions
Posted
@Miraviel For the old guard, EOC used to be an actual crime in and of itself, simply being part of an organization opposed to NT in some way was justification for execution. Now it's not a crime but a category of suspects. Nuke ops aren't necessarily KoS either, given their implants detonate upon death and there is (or was) and end of round bonus points for capturing Operatives alive and getting them on the shuttle.