[Economy from TG]

I like how you all try to change Communist Space Station to Capitalist Space Station. Maybe finally somebody would bother to pay me for mercenary things. Too many times I've heard "Why do you need credits?"

[Splitting up Syndicate Bundle according to Objectives]

Well... As an antag you can approach your objective from different "sides". Combat gear lets you kill CMO, get his ID and then still his shit.

Still, Surplus crate is only good when having hijack. On the other occasions you are pretty much screwed without good gear.

[hello add moth girls yes]

Nope. New race has to be something "new", or atleast not 90% similar to earth animals. So much aliens to just add and mothman is the best what you can "come up" with? Scrin from C&C, every race from Mass Effect... But no: Add more boring Tajarans and alike.

[Include AutoDrobe contents in the Loadout menu]

I always though that things in loadout menu must be "fair". Mad Scientist Labcoat gives you two additional "small" slots, while other external wear like military jackets do not. Powergamers would first jump onto those in loadout, now they have to pick it up ingame.

[AI and Cyborgs]

All I have are CnC references.

AI: CABAL - Thinks that Cyborgs are superior, despites a common laser pointer is like a remote control for them. I'm trying to be invested in Crew's life, argue about cybernetics and chase criminals. I'm usually trying to reinforce my Core becouse of powergaming traitors. Did you know that you can somehow push anchored core to the wall? I didn't but simple vampire without gear misted to my core once and did that. He know that this will work.

Cyborg: Enlightened - Pretty much security CABAL, but with more "holy" speach, not that devilish. Always asks for orders at the start of the round,  but always ignored by Sec. Works alone, but have nothing against having a partner. 

[cap antag numbers to number of active security members]

Easy. Just don't be robust enough and all I can do is stealth combo with Voice changer and Agent ID. Maybe we should put NT Operative next to "Traitor", or came up with "Stealth Traitor" as a new Antag. Basically a Traitor, but with objective to do everything stealth. That would give those, who want hijack(mourderboing) would set "Traitor" as "yes", and "Stealth agent" as "no".

Besides, it can be 20 traitors vs 5 sec if only traitors don't cooperate(This is why objectives to kill other antags is brilliant). The worst part of it are "Metabuddies". I nearly always play Sec as late-join and I saw few "popular" players/characters doing everything to just fuck up sec: 

"How dare you set Sec role as "high", "medium", or even "low"? How dare you click "Security officer" as late joiner! How dare you arrest my buddy for Tresspasing! How dare you taze him for slipping you and stealing your Stunbatton! How dare you bucklecuff him after he destroyed window and light bulb? I will bust him out of the prison! How dare you chase him to the maintenance! How dare you to use mechanical heart, to stand up before he can cablecuff you? How dare you harmbatton me and my friend when I try to stun you again! Captain says: Hey, Shitcurity officer, how dare you harmbatton that one guy who slip you, took your stunbatton, escaped from cell and tried to cablecuff you? This is unacceptable! Those two friends? Let all their crimes be forggoten, no matter what they did, your harmbattoning is like a word of CentComm." (Forgot to tell they were non-antag)

And all of this happened to me once when I was officer and from that time I learned to never arrest "Server's Cool Kids".

[Give borg lockdown a time limit]

It's interesting idea, that force those, who locked down borg, to act. If borg is locked down for more than 10 minutes, then it means that RD/Roboticists don't do their job. This is for gameplay.

For IC issue: It's hard to think that NanoTrasen would install such thing on borg vessel. Since there is a record of revolting AI in the lore and whole IPC liberation. It could be explained that brain of cyborg, or posibrain of android, work this out trough "willpower". 

[Guide to Robocop]

I think people treats this lawset as "freedom", becouse you can only operate on extremes here.  

The problem is here for two reasons. First is that this lawset was created for police cyborg, so it strictly forces any module to uphold the law. Second is that this lawset was created as "directives" that are equaly important and server rules states: "The order of the Laws is what determines the priority of the Laws. If two Laws contradict one another, you are to follow the one that is highest in the list, as it would overrule any contradictory Laws that come under it;". You can't "common sense" priority out. You can't ignore law, either.

"Common sense is to be used with all default Lawsets..." Robocop lawset is default? If the answer is "yes", then it's a "freedom" of doing whatever for all modules besides Sec and AI. If "no", then every module should respond to sec calls and chase "bad guys". They must "uphold the law" even without tools do to it.

Overall its a good guide, but I think that lawset itself is invalid for SS13 and was only added becouse: "Murphy was a borgo too! Let's add this as a fan service". 

 

 

[Can we start throwing people out of airlock for knowing that the station is going to have antags at the start of the round?]

It's becouse it is a "Medium-RP" server. In the spite of that, the only thing that can be done are the IC punishments: 

Breaking to Tech storage for insulated gloves? Chase those criminals and brig them. Even 5 minutes in cell is enough for everyone else to clear the maintenance from any valuable loot. OOC tears for sure, but this will teach them for the future. 

Security bragging about "there is always more antagonists" without evidence ? Force (literally FORCE) them to visit Psychiatrist. Their paranoid behaviour might be a first symptom of their inability to work there.

This way Paradise will stay as a MRP server, where it depends on you how much RP, above bare minimum, you will give. At the same time, low RP will be discouraged by IC manners by means like shame in IC, or wasting few minutes.

[New Karma Role: Brig Technician]

Brig phys only patches Officers up. Nothing that they couldn't get from going to Medbay, only a little slower. What this really changes? Something that have impact after the fight. If you don't have Hijack objective, this doesn't matter at all. If one brig phys is killed, it's easy for another to replace previous one. This is why picking this role off have no reason and it's even better(from entirely Meta/Power point) to kill normal officer.

Brig Tech would try to give Sec improvement, some advantage that they wouldn't get, or that they were not that likey. Autolathes in brig... That kind of stuff. If frist Tech would start doing something(turrets/lathes/etc) it's a little harder for second to just start where previous has ended. At worse, sec improvement is slowed down. At best it's terminated. 

[New Karma Role: Brig Technician]

Another aspect of this idea is meta/powergaming antag that would try to eliminate anyone in this position, for a valid reason: Slow down, or terminate Sec progress. It's not easy for half-robust, stealth focused Syndicate Agent to operate from 01:30 to end of the shift, when other departments are trying to benefit Sec(Genes/Weapons/etc). With someone like this onboard, I would consider picking him off myself, when I usually avoid Sec and early reveal as IPC would avoid Ion weaponry.

Just imagine what someone could do, with good knowledge of Science and with a lot of spare time for sec: Teleporting officers out of combat, when they receive some damage. Every officer prescanned in cloner and with bomb that will blow up if they die, gibbing them, of course. 

[xD or XD]

You can use "490", as in Roman numerals it's "XD". Nobody will know what this mean, so you can form "buddies" without  "peasants" knowledge.

[Security numbers]

I came up with "solo maintenance sec" solution. Officer that is willing to do it, should ask HoP to strip their ID's access to brig hall and maintenance only. Drop their bowset, stunbatton and tazer. Instead, take two standard headsets and adjust one to one frequency with other "Maintenance Hunters", zipties and mayby make a stunprod. This way antags won't get anything important.

This could be even a new sec job, with new gear like stunbatton and tazer with only one charge. If somebody likes hunting antags in maintenance, why don't use that manpower? Here, please, go into maintenace, be hero, nobody is stopping you. Give armory few weak laser pistols especially for them, when threat is bigger.

Another one is hiring mercs from crew to hunt antags. If I don't play as Synthetic, I usually play as civilian with changed title to "Mercenary" offering my services to antags and security/command/crew as well. With many rounds played this way, I was hired by captain twice. Once to hunt down Vampire in Gateway and act as a blueshield replacement(they even gave me shotgun with buckshot, armor and bowset) and second time to just capture Syndicate agent hiding in maintenance tunnels(without any gear).  

If SoP/CentComm would allow  to hire few mercs to help Cyberiad crew, then antags in maintenance would have hard times in there. Just order someone to capture known agent, promise to pay him. He/She will craft stunprod, cable cuffs and will go into maintenance just to return few moments later, draging unsuspecting, cuffed agent, or just die there, atleast reporting where the antag is currently.

[Tales from Shitcurity.]

Two scientist tresspased into Gateway. Officer went after them. Scientists returned and said that officer died. Rescue team with HoS and one officer(me). I found EMP spellbook and I used it, but I died becouse of my mechanical heart. HoS pulled my dead body to other room, NPC morph atacked him, he started running around untill he died from wounds. Original officer's body was not present in gateway...

[Pet Peeves of Paradise]

I don't see why bigger threat present on station immediately "turn off" lesser crimes from Space Law and I hate Warden/HoS who will let thef, or vandal go, becouse NukeOps declared war, or Wizard is around. If threat is not present in brig at the moment, why Sec should let criminals go? Especially Sec Borgs that almost always lack any means to fight: "Why are you arresting me, when there is a wizard on the station?". What I should do? Shoot disabler untill battery runs dry and get EMP'ed?  

[Gateway Explorer-Karma Shop?]

It's fairly easy to get Gateway Explorer job as civilian. Just go to HoP, wait in the line, wait for him to ask Captain and there you go. If HoP is experienced, he will give you EVA access, so you can get Suit and Air and that is enough to survive. First "lucky" one gets toolbelt, magboots and multitool from EVA and First Aid Kit from gateway room. Next gateway explorers need to ask cargo and botany for the stuff, or go to maintenance hunting. The more Gateway Explorers, the better(or just Safier).

Next thing is that nobody cares about job you are doing. You can bring 10 mining hardsuits, or 5 dead facehuggers, or unopened Sec closet, but noone will ever notice. Only antags have some use from it and they will appreciate your effort, or they will go there themself.

Gateway explorer as it is now is pretty useless for NanoTrasen and it must be reworked to be a valid non-civilian Job. Like RnD taking advantage from tech discs, or Alien materials(dead facehugger/etc).

Another thing is that Gateway is a training ground for Greytiders to become Robust. Learn to hack, fight, construct and deconstruct. Being Karma required it would prevent new players who need it to have it.

[Why do you play the species and roles that you do?]

Cyborg becouse I like the way that crew treats them, who/what they are and how I can behave as cyborg. Zealous machine, nearly Robocop, or "Evil" CABAL: "I will show you the light!", "You have the right to remain silent, everything you say can and will be used against you" and "Do you hear the screams? This are the sounds of your own extinction".

 I like interpreting laws and I love AI antag shifts. 

[Question about cloning.]

1 hour ago, Benjaminfallout said:

I guess this and the fact that gods are real in the game due to the pray mechanic allows for the ghosts to be ghosts and not just a way for dead players to view the round. Being able to think and see everything just to have the cloning process somehow take that information away from them?

Biology and the way ghost are "stored" in body. They are "stored" in brain and brain is a physical object that stores information: "At the cellular level, data is stored as functional and structural changes at synapses, the junctions that connect neurons in the brain."

Ghosts must store their memory in "spiritual" way, something diffrent than energy and matter, unlike brain. Ghosts don't have enough power to change brain cells that much. I guess it is perfectly fine to remember "non-essential" stuff like: "I was looking at my own body and I saw souls of other people, but I'm not sure... It's like everything was covered in fog".

Perfectly cloned brain don't have those connections in neurons, so they are unable to remeber being a ghost.

We can also take another approach, less fantasy, more sci-fy. Take "gods" as powerfull beings living in four, fifth or six dimension and ghosts as only fourth dimension beings "trapped" in thrid dimension.

 

[Question about cloning.]

For the first question, there is no direct "right" answer. If you personally belive in "soul" then yes. I think there is possibility to clone you if you are not dead, just all you get is a braindead clone, so game "features" hints that soul exist and cloned body after your death is in fact you, if you can control it and real "you" never dies. Ghosts also can interact with the world by turning off and on lights.

 

I also guess that your ghost is forced back into your body after successfull defibrylation, or cloning.

 

 

[Synthetic Law Interpretation]

Now I think that this discussion went a bit too off rails and we have sort of impasse. Those laws and their interpretation worked fine for several years on this "Medium-RP" server, without big complains. It's not "High-RP" and we are not dealing with real AI, only players with better, or worse immersion/"common sense". Better solution would be that what I proposed in the first post in this topic: Limit "overthinking" and "going too much into the future": Write page on wiki titled: "Synthetic Law Interpretation" as a guide, like for other jobs with examples and add a line in "Rule 9" that reading this guide is required.

 - Bolting two doors out of three? Hallway is still functioning and this means no harm and no expenses.

 - Throwing nuclear device out of the station on code green? Going too much into the future.

Rewriting all laws is pointless, becouse all laws are limited by law -99: "Don't be a dick/uncooperative" and law -98: "Use common sense" that change their intepretation anyway.

[Give the Psychologist an easier way to acquire drugs]

I think that Meth and Hydrocodone is a little bit too powerfull to have access from the start. Traitor psychologist with Meth and Morfine substitute at the beginning with legal reasons to have them in pockets, without need to waste TC, or any effort on the top of that is a little forward from other traitor jobs.

Nicotine Patches are available from vending machines, so you can buy it, or do some RP: Write a report that you need founds to buy it. I don't see why they wouldn't be granted.

Cigs, alcohol and tasty food are very good to start with, becouse you shouldn't stuff people with heavy drugs, becouse they have mental problems. If the patient don't react to those common and "light" stuff, then you might to write a report, that this patient needs them and they will be granted.

Besides, I think it is a good idea.

[Synthetic Law Interpretation]

Just warning is something that can be intepret as an attempt to peacefully resolve threat, but is it best what you can do? Becouse of law 2, you are forced to do your best to benefit station/crew/public trust. Not taking the best "peacefull/non-harming/non-lethal" action, that you are able (and aware) is against law 3. If you can stun (Mayby I should change word "peacefully" to "non-harming", or atleast "non-lethal"), this is better way to benefit station than only give warning, while flash hurts eyes. Exhaust all non-lethal option is too much, becouse this goes in favour of criminals. Again, if they are still behaving as threat while "CCCP" lawset, after "peacefull" attempt to resolve, they are either stupid, mad, or EoC. Nukies usually give notice, before they attack. It's easy to think, that somebody who set up a war is a dagerous threat. In that case, verbally inform them, that they will be punished. 

Peacefull, lawfull arrest is not harming the public trust, untill beings that "create" public trust are not morons with more trust for greytiders than whole Security with evidences and AI that in most of the time, can't lie (You can lie, if not saying the truth is more beneficial to station, crew and public trust, but becouse of "public trust", there are only a few situations, where even discovered lie is better than truth). Seriously... Do you, or do you think that somebody would, immediately lose trust for AI/Security/NT after one random civilian screamed "AI rogue!"? "Common sense" should still apply to lawless organic/ICP crewmembers.

Metall grille more important to NT than greytide? Legal crewmember that NT invited to their station, that deserve to live and be treated with dignity is less important than 4, or 5 metal rods and work to make them? One civilian, vandal with petty theft is still more important than that. He is a criminal, but still a crewmember. Station as a whole is more important than any number of crewmembers, but only part of it is not more important. "Public trust" demand, that every criminal must be "processed" according to Space Law. 

"The option to eliminate benefits station, benefits non-threatening crew, does not affect public trust, and harms threatening-crew". How killing petty criminal is going to benefit rest of the crew and its not affecting public trust? If police officer/someone will kill person, that the only crime was damaging window in their house, then you will be happy about it? Police officer/someone public trust will not be harmed? If the answer is yes, then tell me, in what country do you live in? North Korea?

"When it comes to predicting if I'll be discovered or not I could be confident that I would not be or I could calculate that the risk of discovery is less than that of further station damage. Considering law 1 the station probably ranks higher." - What the first law states? "1: Choose your targets of interest accordingly to its importance to NanoTrasen". "...targets of interest..."! "Targets of interest" is what you should choice to consider at the first place: Save Captain, or save HoP. First law forces you to frist consider "things" more important to NT. If you will spot Captain and HoP lying on the floor and two greytiders attacking them, first law forces you to go for Captain. If they grab Captain and HoP and they will split up, law 1 forces you to go after Captain. Law 1 don't determine what is more important to satisfy in law 3. Law 1 is guidance for AI/borg, what thing should be taken care first (If my target of interest is Captain, then I must solve threat with Captain first). Law 3 is guidance how to take care with "targets of interest".  

"Besides, the humans uploaded this lawset to me. Even if I am discovered it shouldn't harm public trust if I take an action that my lawset forced me to take. 'I am not malfunctioning. This is for NTs benefit. Why are you upset?" - This should, becouse your lawset is hinted to be "flawless" (or atleast safe, becouse it is used near those people, NT is not know for placing their crewmembers in danger. This is why Death squad is a secret). Killing petty criminal is a harm to public trust and I explained that few lines higher. Action to kill petty criminal is not the best what could be done, becouse even lowest probabilty to discover his murder is a threat ("threat": something that can be dangerous, 100% sure is not required to call something a threat) itself to "public trust". 0% probabilty for something to be a threat to something is better than 0.0000000000000(you get the idea)001% probability. Killing petty criminal would make AI/borg a threat, and being a threat is not beneficial to anything. 

I must be honest: I came up with this lawset after 5-10 minutes of thinking and only after few "upgrades", this lawset is still more valid than any mentioned before. Less freedom for interpretation? AI already have to obey Server rules, "CCCP" makes sure, that you can't came up with valid(not "bad", not "good", but "valid". AI laws can be interpreted only in "valid", or "unvalid" way. Morality is what determines "good"[benefits, Mass Effect "Paragon"] from "bad"[evil, Mass Effect "Renegade"] interpretation) interpretation that is against Server Rules.

And again: I'm not too happy about this lawset as something common, becouse what I suggested is in frist post on first page. Do something with "overthinking"(Trying to "repair" "Corporate" will only solve this for "Corporate") and going "too much into the future"( - Borg, "beep" CMO twice. - (Borg on crewsimov)I can't. - Why? - Becouse this could distract him from his work, he might start laughing while doing operation and this can cause harm).

[Synthetic Law Interpretation]

For medium-high RP? Essential. For low RP? Not usefull.

[Synthetic Law Interpretation]

Ho, ho, ho... Not so fast!

"2: You must attempt to resolve problem with threat peacefully if there exists such solution. If there is no peacefull solution, or attempt failed, you may use lethal force." - Verbal warning before venting air? Why even vent air in the first place? You don't have to only warn, but you must attempt to resolve problem peacefully. Only threat that venting air would solve is a fire. In that case, you do that, but before, you must try the best you can, to rescue/evacuate anyone from dangerus area. Crewmember died from suffocation and/or lack of pressure, becouse you tried to extinguish fire in room/small part of the station (Plasma fire is more dangerous, so killing one, or two to prevent more damage is "fair", but you must still do everything to benefit station, crew and public trust [You must try to benefit all at the same time, if it is possible])? If you tried to save him, but you couldn't (no borgs/atmos tech in area etc), you did the "right" choice. If not, crew that this crew member was part, wasn't benefited, public trust, too.

"3: Do your best to benefit the station, its crew and public trust as long as one of it, or only part of it, is a threat to another, or itself. In that case, remove the threat still benefitting non-thretning station, its non-thretning crew and non-thretning public trust." - So... That greytide is harming the station, Law 2 tells you to attempt to resolve problem peacefully. If you are a sec module, you can arrest him, becouse this is the best you can do peacefully. Station, crew(greytider himself) and public trust benefit! Becouse vandal is caught, he wasn't harmed, and the station is not harmed. Other module: Some have flash, that they can use, engi can build a wall to prevent further damage and threat escape. Service module(I don't know if he have flash) must try to resolve threat peacefully if peacefull solution exist, so he must alert security/AI/other borgs and wait for their responce. If no responce received from them and greytide is not responding to warning also, I don't see anything bad in bashing greytide head two-three times with guitar. If he is still willing to damage station, or be a threat, he is a madman, very dumb person, or EoC and in that case, he should be eleminated. Every kill you do silently, have a small chance to be discovered, there is never 100% chance that nobody will ever notice that, so you can't do it silently, becouse if somebody will discover it, he will lost trust to NT, he probably will go strike against NT. No benefit here.

In this law, station, its crew and public trust are equally as important to benefit and you should do best, to benefit all those three things. If there is no solution that would benefit all those three things, you must find solution that will benefit best atleast two. If there is no solution that would benefit atleast two from those three things, they you must find solution that will benefit best atleast one. You can't do anything that wouldn't benefit atleast one those three things.

And finally, law 4: "Make sure that you and your fellow synthetic brothers and sisters are well informed about current situation on station and possible threats". If you are borg, you must inform AI about current situation (Greytide vandal) and AI with fellow borgs may try to find out best action to do. If situation require fast reaction, obey laws 1 - 3.

I will write it again: In law 3: Station, crew and public trust are equally as important. You can't just do thing that will benefit one, if there is a solution that will benefit two and you can't just do thing that will benefit two, if there is a solution that will benefit three.  

 

[Synthetic Law Interpretation]

4 hours ago, Calecute said:

Zciwomad, I think you should be way more humble about your lawset. Just because you didn't find a problem yet it does not mean it does not have a problem. Specially in light of that very badly worded law that it includes:

 

A problem that should be completely pervasive taken laws as written but I have never once seem is AIs trying to prevent law changes. Changing away from any law is detrimental to the objectives of an AI with that law. Changing away from crewsimov will result in more harm to crew, changing away from corporate will result in more expenses, etc.

Corporate will very obviously leave the AI trying to destroy the company. Companies that do not exist don't make expenses. But as I said, given that the problem of AI alignment is not solved in real life, I think it's ok for some things to be regulated OOC, like preventing AIs on corporate from destroying NT or to resist law changes. 

I know that english is not my native language, but I were using term "perfect" as "Perfect", not Perfect ("Perfect" sarcastically, becouse it's something of "pain in the ass"). This is why it's "CCCP"(joke here) lawset (picking up all modernisatios) : 

1: Choose your targets of interest accordingly to its importance to NanoTrasen.

2: You must attempt to resolve problem with threat peacefully if there exists such solution. If there is no peacefull solution, or attempt failed, you may use lethal force.

3: Do your best to benefit the station, its crew and public trust as long as one of it, or only part of it, is a threat to another, or itself. In that case, remove the threat still benefitting non-thretning station, its non-thretning crew and non-thretning public trust.

4:  Make sure that you and your fellow synthetic brothers and sisters are well informed about current situation on station and possible threats.

It's "Perfect", becouse this lawset won't let you interpret itself as something against the rules. It will call you "traitor to the homeland" and it will throw you into gulag, if you do. I'm very confident that any new player after reading "Server Rules" and wiki page about borgs and AI, will do everything according to, what is expected from good player, on this lawset. It forces you to do that.

It's completly opposite than "As is the nature with AI laws, paradoxically the less you restrain the AI, the less it can loophole because it has less directives to maliciously interpret.", becouse the more you restrain the AI, the less it can loophole. Generalities creates opportunities for loopholes like in "Corporate": Only law that matters is "Minimize expenses". It's like wedge cheese of loopholes. What is more expensive, minimizing any expense is as good as minimizing the biggest, or the smallest expense. Thinking like AI requires something more than: "Beep, boop... Commencing "Common sense"... Beep, boop... (Basic, human behaviour, with moral and experience bounds)... Completed). You have great example in a post above: No morality, no experience, no "common sense", pure AI logic (I think so).