[Useless Pro Tips]

Here's one more for cigarettes. They can actually be lit with a wand of fireball. There may be a failure chance for Non Wizards. HONK!

[Hackable cargo crates]

Aren't there enough ways to open a crate you don't have access to?

1. Acquire access
2. Shoot it a bunch
3. EMP it
4. Blow it up (Even an IED can do this 50% of the time)
5. Emag it
(6. Maybe chuck things at it, not 100% on that one)

So that's at least 4 ways to do it without an emag. Do they really need to be hackable with a multitool on top of that all. If all it requires is a multitool and screwdriver then it really becomes zero effort. Worst case scenario, you perma lock a crate. Not exactly a real downside considering how you're often swimming in points by midshift.

[Shadow person (not shadowLING) as selectable race/role]

We all do already know that shadowpeople are a thing right? They typically have full crew rights since 99% of the time they were crew, just injected with mutationtoxin.

This almost sounds like it should be a separate thing, like a variant shade that takes damage in light.

[Thoughts on an x-ray nerf?]

A suggestion I've seen is to make those with X-ray extremely flash vulnerable. I'm talking to the point where all welding protection is useless, because you're seeing right through it. Flashes go up a tier in effectiveness where the AoE makes you drop things and direct clicks stun you like Borg flashes. Flashbangs once again hit you just as hard as someone with no protection, even through walls. If you see that thing go off you're getting the maximum stun. It would put it more on the level of thermals. Of course if this happens then all Antags with the X-ray vision should have the same issues with the option to toggle off the ability.

I'm mostly for a full removal except for the Orb of Scrying but at least giving it some heavy downsides might ease things. It just feels like an edge that goes too far in stopping innovation.

[Simple mobs]

If my interpretation of the code is correct its anything UNDER 10. 10 itself should go through. Given enough time the humble iron rod or reliable toolbox should break through an airlock.

[BrandonSacawv - Admin Complaint/Feedback]

Thank you for the reply. My intention wasn't to get my note changed though that is a nice bonus. My intention was to provide feedback and kind of give my two cents on the standards security is held to.

Security is stressful. You got Antags ready to kill you the moment you turn the corner in maint with their abundance of powerful abilities just because you're a security officer. You're holding yourself to a high standard because the rules say you should. If you have admins breathing down your neck in tense clusterfuck situations it pushes it even higher. Past the point for enjoyment for a lot of them. BWOINKs are very stressful for the receiving player and a combination of everything is likely to push players away from the role. Especially when they come at a point when shit has already hit the fan. I don't want to see halfway decent players pushed away from the role. There isn't a whole lot of reason to play security. You get watched extra hard, the crew (Or mostly just the vocal and grafitiing part, as well as OoC at round end) tends to hate your guts, and you're free game for any antags. Unless you REALLY like redtext its often not worth the ordeal. Which is a shame because the server could use a few decent security officers each round. Point 2 is something the server as a whole needs to work on, and Point three sucks but it makes sense that Antags would be after your gear and access.

However point one is something that should be strives for easing on the admins side. I thought the people complaining about Security Bwoinks were just bad players that really messed up. But now that its happened to me I can see how it can adversely affect a player. I did a sub-optimal thing and felt as if the jobbanhammer was floating over my head from bwoink 2 onward. Security has a rough job and it would be nice if Admins were supportive in it instead of taking a stance that leads to them getting pushed away. Maybe its me. Maybe its just I'm not cut out for it but I get the impression that a lot of decent players avoid the role because not only the Antags push against them but Crew and Admins as well.

Other than that, the issue IS resolved as much as I feel its going to be. This was mostly feedback that I wanted to apply a bit more broadly than just a DM to admin in question in case it was a bit of an endemic issue.

[BrandonSacawv - Admin Complaint/Feedback]

Due to the holiday I'll be unavailable to answer questions on the forum from today to the 27th. If you need more information from me I may be reachable on discord but my availability will still be spotty. Have a good holiday.

[What would you trade for?]

Some things that are nice to have and do exist on station but typically don't get to the people who need them.

• Slime speed potions
• limberness SEs
• Nanopaste
• Incision Management Systems

Some other things that might just be nice to get

• Rolls of 9000 tickets so you only need 1000 more for the bike,
• autoimplanters (Unless they're syndicate tech)

And a silly item that probably isn't feasible but

• A Nanotrasen Indulgence/Pardon - Redeemable to get out of any non capital crime. (Possibly only any non-perma sentence.)

On 12/13/2018 at 4:40 PM, tiredbum said:

Just throw in strange seeds for botany.

Why not cut out the middle step and just have random plant trait and plant reagent disks. Otherwise I see either Botanists getting upset that their strange seed was a dud, or asking the trader to scan every seed, slowing the line down.

[BrandonSacawv - Admin Complaint/Feedback]

I would like another admin to weigh in on this. In my opinion you are placing a large expectation of absolute control over any situation as a security officer.

Under these circumstances: Shadowlings were close to ascending, the Self Destruct codes had been requested by command, a Queen of Terrors had released dozens of spiderlings into the station. It seemed imperative to act on what knowledge I had or more crew would die as a result of my inaction. As the vox was in the room as the Queen of Terrors, a creature not known for 'just talking' it was assumed to be in cahoots with the Queen. Just by not calling out the Queen of Terror laying Eggs the Vox was partially responsible for the deaths of crew most likely. I fail to see many alternatives I had. I could not act, which would likely result in the queen fleeing to a more secure location. Or I could enter immediately which I did.

I am regretfully unsure what my exact actions were. I remember primarily aiming for the Queen but BrandonSacawv insists I was aiming mostly for the Vox. I assume I stepped into the doorway only partway as to block exit for the queen and perhaps the Vox tried to run past me and caught more lasers. He was never the primary target but he may have been hit more.

Ultimately if another admin weighs in and says that Security is to be held to this standard then I'm going to have to back away from the role. My reactions aren't perfect and neither is my ability to process. The job is by far one of the most stressful on station already and requiring absolute perfection from them would be too much for me. Fearing bwoinks just for split second slip ups while on the job is not something I'm willing to put up with and if this kind of thing is the norm then I could see why some players stay away from the role.

[BrandonSacawv - Admin Complaint/Feedback]

Admin(s) Key: BrandonSacawv (Not fully sure this is the only admin involved as they logged out before I could request if there were any others)
Your ckey (Byond username): Pennwick
Your Discord name (if applicable): Pennwick

Date(s) of incident (GMT preferred): 12/14/2018 5ish AM

Nature of complaint:
Feedback, unrealistic expectations

Brief description:

Grilled and ultimately warned for lethaling a Vox harboring a Queen of Terrors

Full description of events:

Round was Shadowlings. I was a security officer. I received a mech about halfway through the shift for which I was extremely grateful even though it lacked non lethal options. I returned to robotics to get some but was called away to put pressure on Shadowlings. A pink event spider had shown up at the beginning of the round. At this point I believe the 2/3rds warning for Shadowling Ascension had gone out. The shuttle had been called. While walking past the janitors closet the door opened and dozens of spiderlings rushed out. I didn't get a good look at the time but I spotted a vox inside. I freaked out for a bit on radio and decided to focus on the shadowlings hoping it was isolated. The Queen of Terrors was called out via Central Command announcement so I returned to the Janitors office. A borg or the AI opened the door and inside was a vox (Chikai I believe but I'm not certain) and the Queen of Terrors. I opened fire on both. As the Vox was in front he took the worst of it and was possibly put into crit by my actions. The Queen escaped through a wall and I pursued to the best of my Durand's ability. At this point I was Bwoinked why I shot the vox.

I do not remember my exact response. If logs could be pulled I would not mind if they were shown. I defended myself with a combination of the Vox in question was harboring a Queen of Terrors and was therefore bad news and likely a threat, and the fact I was shooting mostly for the Queen. Which may have been not factual as the Vox was up in my face and I may have focused somewhat on him. I am sorry if I misrepresented myself but I was on the defense and may have mis-remembered facts. I was told that since the Vox was unarmed I should have detained and processed him.

Is this really a realistic expectation? Firstly, this Vox was harboring a Queen of Terrors and likely helping it to incubate its eggs by providing it a haven to do so as many more spiderlings than a single clutch escaped when the door was open. That goes so far beyond anything in space law, something along the lines of Mass Attempted Murder. Had the shuttle not been called early due to the Shadowlings then the majority of Spiderlings would have had a chance to grow up. In fact Admin BrandonSacawv was a Red Terror spider at one point. If thralls were given a kill order I see no reason why the Vox should be treated any differently. Secondly, I was supposed to determine that the Vox darting back and forth in front of my Durand was unarmed. Unlike the observing Admin I did not have the benefits of X-ray and full brightness. That door opened. I saw movement and I fired liberally at both targets.

I understand that Security is supposed to be held to a higher standard but that standard must be reasonable. Making calm and rational decisions with the benefit of a birds eye view and no consequences if you choose poorly is a nice luxury an observer has but not the officer breaching into a Terror nest. If an player can't feel secure in opening fire in a tense situation then it heaps undue stress on few players who are willing to play security. I try to be Goodsec, and its a lot easier when you're safe in the processing room. But once you're deep in a situation like that its likely kill or be killed. If this is the kind of scrutiny officers are constantly under then I want no part of the job and I can see why other players would feel the same.

[Useless Pro Tips]

GAR Mesons can't be mounted on your Ripley. Most people also overstate their combat power. They hit as hard as a floor tile or a fire extinguisher. However they do have a fair chance to embed while thown which makes them one of the few items able to do so without being launched out of a cannon.

[Dumb ideas and suggestions]

Holopad butt dials. Similar to an ass copying this calls a (possibly random) holopad with a hologram of your butt.

[Useless Pro Tips]

9 hours ago, Aletmagne said:

As in its an admin spawned thing?

I'm not sure what Triiodine said is part of Paracode. There is code for a suplex but its given from the wrestling style granted by a wrestling belt (Same sprite but diffrent from the champion's belt). From there its a disarm while grabbing someone with the style's special clinch grab to do a suplex. You'll both be stunned but your foe will be stunned longer and will take damage.

[Zipties are just worse Cable Cuffs]

On 11/30/2018 at 4:09 PM, maintman said:

Yeah, zipties are faster to put on than handcuffs. I'm not sure whether the zipties or cable cuffs should have the faster cuffing time, but for balance reasons the cable cuffs probably needs it.

This is false. Handcuffs, Zipties, and Cable cuffs all have the same cuff time of three seconds. Other than zipties breaking the differences are in breakout times. 60 seconds for handcuffs, 45 for zipties, and 30 for cable cuffs.

I think Zipties are in a pretty good place actually. If they needed any changes it would be to make more available for security, currently the warden starts with a box in their locker and there are 8 in the security vendor.

[Fixing War Rounds. Some suggestions.]

Really I think this choice can't be made with IC justification. It would make sense for sleeper agents to be on board. It would also make sense for agents to be on board during shadowling, blob, and cult rounds. However we don't have them for balance reasons. (Though I would love to see some agents who's goal it is to preserve the station integrity while commiting a more minor crime. Thats something else though.) The issue is with sleeper agents is that they add paranoia which while it can be fun it'll probably cut back on crew cohesiveness in a un-fun way. When the crew gets to stand as a ragtag team of sec, greyshirts, nerds, and cargonians vs a gang of heavily armed lunatics its lets the crew both work as a team and try out some of those crazy ideas. Plus for those who don't feel comfortable rolling antag yet it lets them have a chance at getting some gunplay or stunplay in without the pressure of playing security or traitor. I can see those oppritunites vanishing if Sleepers become a part of war ops. Which would be a shame.

Stealth ops can already stealth in with their teleporter or a clean entrance. War ops can order borgs to help them out or try to be a cohesive team and roll through the station. Maybe adding buyable reinforcements with your TC will help but I think putting them on station will do more harm than good.

[Fixing War Rounds. Some suggestions.]

22 minutes ago, tzo said:

Of all the ideas I've heard to make war ops a fairer fight, perhaps the one I like best is: upon declaration of war, turn 1-3 crew into traitors with objectives to assassinate different members of Command. This way, we're discouraging the HoP/Cap from giving everyone guns and all-access, without outright prohibiting it. We're also evening the balance in the number of players on each side, a little, and ensuring that the crew doesn't have 20 minutes' hassle-free prep time. Rather than outright prohibiting anything or making it impossible, we're introducing some disincentives that curb the most problematic behavior on the crew side, and even up the fight, without making anything totally impossible.

I'd almost like to see this. Maybe as a buyable option for the operatives. Activating a sleeper agent with 0-10TC or just a headset key, with an mission given by the operatives to either disrupt the crew in general or have a more complex plan. Ideally they're also given some opportunity to get off station as well. Either getting to the gateway or perhaps being given notice that one pod will launch right  before detonation. Making it an every time thing would discourage the security team from trusting anyone which might cut down on crew inclusion. Even having it be a buy in thing would likely cause some issues.

[So why exactly did IPCs have to be nerfed massively?]

3 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

A good way I've found to summarize it up is usually:

It's easy to get materials to repair IPCs, but a pain in the ass to do the repairs.
It's hard to get the materials to heal a human, but easy to do with those.

Everything needed to fix an IPC is pretty much available in public access rooms, things you get from cargo or are in toolboxes all over the station. Easy to find, but doing the repairs, like tzo said, is really a slow process that most people don't seem to know how to do. IPCs NEED surgery past a certain threshold cuz of internal structural damage once over a damage cap.  I know IPC repairs off the top of my head usually, but even I sometimes fuck 'em up or stumble over one I do rarely. An that was before the "IPCs bleed oil" thing Iunno how it is after that.

Conversely, the stuff to heal humans is hard to get hold of, mostly being limited to the Medical department itself or from Chemistry, and are not handed out willy-nilly.  But the process of healing them is easy as pie. Slap on a synthflesh patch, dump into cryo, clone, defib, etc. are all easy.  Even surgeries are mitigated by the fact you only really ever have to do surgery for things like broken bones or internal organ/bleeding, due to aforementioned Cryo an such, so you memorize those handfuls and you're really set unless something unusual pops in.  Again, I know most of those surgeries by heart, being someone that played a lot of medical and a lot of IPC, I screw up meat surgery far less then metal surgery

Really I find them pretty equal in complexity. Never have to worry about bones in the way. Fixing organs is done with a screwdriver, pulling them out is a multitool. Damage can only reach the 'too severe' cap on the torso, everything else will fall off before that cap. And Nanopaste can always be used regardless of the damage level. They can't use cryo but a recharger will fix all external damage IF its upgraded. Though the one public recharger gets skipped over pretty often and its not obvious to most when they've been upgraded. Unlike Cryo which is the first stop for 75% of the tide as they run past the doctors and hop into the tubes themselves.

[So why exactly did IPCs have to be nerfed massively?]

On 11/14/2018 at 3:20 PM, Pennwick said:

I wanted to put some hard numbers down here but I realized just going on code theory wasn't a sound way to make an argument since I could easily be wrong. I'll try to put together a test sever so I can test things more empirically.

I ended up doing those hard numbers tests and thought I'd share the results. Some of them surprised even me.

Comparisons will be between IPC, Humans, and Robotic Limbed Humans ('RLH's). All three are available from roundstart. Augmented limbs are seperate and can't be chosen at roundstart.

Firstly is damage differences, Humans take x1, Humans with robot limbs take .66x, and IPC take >1.5x. I'll also include damage values in toolboxings('TB's) to reach these thresholds. A toolbox hits for 10 damage on a standard human.

Human hands and feet break at 15(1.5 Toolboxes), Arms and legs at 30(3 TB), Groin chest and head at 35(3.5 TB).

Robotic limbs start to malfunction at 10 damage (.66 TBs for IPC, 1.5 TBs for RLH). This causes a drop of the item, scaling with damage.

Human limbs are only dismembered after their reach their damage cap and even then only with a chance when hit with a sharp object.

Robotic limbs are lost immediately when they hit their damage cap. For hands/feet its 30, (2 TBs for IPC, 5 TBs for RLH), and 50 for arm/leg/head (~3.5 for IPC, ~8 for RLH) At this point the limb is dropped and all damage that was on the limb is transfered up to the next limb.

EMP damage is actually the same between the two, minus the internal damage and having 3 more zones on the IPC. A Severity 2 EMP with wound both pretty significantly. And a Severity 1 will kill both. Though now that I think about it I only tested with a chemistry(50/50) EMP grenade. Other sources might function slightly differently. The numbers weren't at all what I expected nor were the results. I had suspected the IPC to Die from both and the human to be at most crit by the Severity 1. However it can at least be said with some certainty that EMP damage is not influenced by the racial damage penalty for IPC.

[Genetics rework ideas]

10 hours ago, Corocan said:

Second, I don't think xray is overused so much as thermals are underused. Thermals definitely get the shorter end of the stick. While it's easier to get to the research levels for thermals, their material costs are about the same and they also don't have the latent advantage of being discovered via genetics.

Just as a note here: Thermals cost more diamond but don't require Bluespace mesh or uranium. However I feel like their requirements are practically equal. You do need one higher level of materials, programming, and plasma but at the levels required you can do it completely from within science assuming mining is doing their job. The more significant roadblock is Bio 7 which requires Ambrosia gaia or a Sentience/Transferal potion from xenobio. As such they usually become available at the same time.

[Useless Pro Tips]

3 hours ago, GutTC said:

The only problem is that the time to pull the trigger takes really long and might merely reach before the slip cooldown.

And it also leave a notable notification for everyone surrounding that you are doing something with the clown on his mouth no matter if it's silenced or not.

Did a little check. A clown PDA slip is long enough to pull it off if you're reasonably quick. You have about 2 seconds of leeway. Considering you're a mime and pointing a cane up to the clowns head like a gun... You might get away with it by sheer audacity and the fact its not immediately clear you're not just miming. They might figure it out, but at least they can't say you aren't doing a good job as a mime.

[Useless Pro Tips]

Possibly combinable with recent execution shot tips.

As a traitor mime you can get a cane shotgun. Which fires all shotgun ammunition as if it were fired from a silenced sketchin. It can't fit in your backpack but if you can get a circular saw to shorten it. Giving you a sawn off cane. Loses a bit of its deniability aspect though as it gains a unique description.

Just grab a proper shotgun slug for cargo, slip the clown on his own PDA and one click later walk away as if nothing happened.

[Guide to securing DA FUKEN DISC]

On 11/9/2018 at 3:01 AM, Maniacal Pineapple said:

Just implant it into the clown...

Have a drink of your choice

And just watch nukies murder the clown horribly.

Perhaps arm the clown with a bomb that detonates on his death...

Congrats you are probably dead by now

Actually. You can't do this. There is a check on the surgery that forbids implanting the disk. There is also a check on the surgery that makes sure you didn't put the disk in a box and try to implant the box.

	if(istype(tool, /obj/item/disk/nuclear))
		to_chat(user, "<span class='warning'>Central command would kill you if you implanted the disk into someone.</span>")
		return 0//fail

	var/obj/item/disk/nuclear/datdisk = locate() in tool
	if(datdisk)
		to_chat(user, "<span class='warning'>Central command would kill you if you implanted the disk into someone. Even if in a box. Especially in a box.</span>")
		return 0//fail

 

[Useless Pro Tips]

12 minutes ago, Kryson said:

This works well, but i have stopped doing because it feels like powergaming and pretty much make the chef obsolete. One or two sips takes you from starving to well fed!

Being able to essentially opt out of the entire hunger system should not be so easy on a medium RP server in my opinion and it is something the coders should take a look at.

I think the issue is that hot chocolate is just a cup of straight chocolate. I think it was supposed to be a fluff thing from last Christmas that would spawn around the trees but at some point it got added to the vendors and its powergaming potential has stuck around. On the other hand its the only way I can find to get chocolate. Grinding up a homemade chocolate bar only gets you cocoa powder, and grinding up a candy bar only gets you sugar.

[So why exactly did IPCs have to be nerfed massively?]

A lot of this conversation seems to be veering away from discussing the update and more IPC balance as a whole. They're probably due for a wider discussion again but for now we can just focus on this single set of changes.

Slight buff via reduction to damage penalty: Their mysterious construction material has been upgraded from Wet Cardboard to Paper Mache. I'll put a bit more on exact numbers in a collapse at the end of the post but they're still super fragile. A lot of people aren't considering this a buff because its only being raised to the point we thought its been for ages. Which IS a raw deal, but in the context of this PR it was a buff.

Slight nerf via new bleed mechanic: This is kind of manageable, maybe needs a tweak or two with rates and possibly availability of oil (Oil including sodas for IPC when?) but at the same time it feels like the races are being made the same, which I thought we were trying to avoid. The idea was to make races radically diffrent, not just humans + attribute changes. I'd be more okay with this change if it also allowed IPC to be vampires and vampire targets. After all, now they have a fluid running through their veins tied to their life. It would be interesting as draining an IPC of all its oil won't directly kill it, so vampires would have a choice to leave their victims alive and barely able to walk or just finishing off their weak oilcan.

Slight ??? via damage in hard crit: This worse for the other races that don't breath but have ways of getting out of crit, either with revival implants, drugs, or helpful viruses. IPC have none of those so not so much an issue. I'm not sure if this is a possibility but could the damage cause limbs to pop off and thereby cause your HP to go up? I feel like such a coincidence would be rare, as you would need to have that tiny bit of damage hit the right threshold, but at the same time you're also taking damage everywhere else. I'm also not sure why they would take damage, doesn't feel like theres any particular reason for them to do so. And if its for convience so you're not in crit forever, succumbing was always an option. (Non backed up idea: Maybe succumbing is the better option since you'd stop taking damage? I haven't tested this but it makes sense in a stupid way.)

------------------------------------

I wanted to put some hard numbers down here but I realized just going on code theory wasn't a sound way to make an argument since I could easily be wrong. I'll try to put together a test sever so I can test things more empirically.

[Useless Pro Tips]

On 11/11/2018 at 12:38 PM, Alliostra said:

Xenobio Golems are immune to electrical shocks

Dionae can get random mutations from being shot with a floral somatoray.

To clarify on the last one mutation shots will harm Dionae and pod people. 15% chance of radiation, 35% chance of mutation, 50% chance of burn. Yield shots will make them fat. Ever wanted to make a Diona even slower?