EASY 'code' FIXES for CULT

[flimflamm]

 

EDIT: I wwanted to see how hard it would be to actually pull off the coms network bit, so I have attempted to rework the pray to nar'sie ability into a communicate with cult ability by adapting it along with a piece of code from the communicate rune. Here are the results (a coder who could look this over would be much appreciated (the red is the shit I added or changed, the light blue are my minimal annotations):

 

 

/obj/cult_viewpoint/verb/talk_to_cult()

set category = "Cult"

set desc = "Communicate with your cult"

set name = "Commune"

set src in usr

 

var/input = stripped_input(usr, "Please choose a message to tell to the other acolytes.", "Voice of Blood", "") ////user input box

if(!input) ///////// if no input

return ///////// ends process

 

var/F = investigate_subject2file("cult") ///// gets cult status

if(!F) /////// if not cult

return ////////// ends process

 

to_chat(F, "[time2text(world.timeofday,"hh:mm")] \ref[usr] ([usr.x],[usr.y],[usr.z]) || [usr] communicates: [input]

")[/color] ///// im not sure if this is related to a log or the function to send the message to cultists

 

for(var/datum/mind/H in ticker.mode.cult)

if(H.current)

to_chat(H.current, "[cultName]: [input]") /////// not sure if this is actually the thing that sends the message to cultists or not

 

cult_log("[key_name(usr,0)](Cultcomms):[input]") //// pretty sure this is for logs

to_chat(owner, "You Commune With the Cult: [input]") ///// pretty sure for logs

 

for(var/mob/spirit/spirit in spirits) ///// for ghosts

to_chat(spirit, "[get_display_name()] communes : [input]") //// for ghosts

 

 

I'm not positive, but I may or may not need to include this line which comes from the communicate rune (not sure if i grabbed the line that actually produces the message) :

for(var/datum/mind/H in ticker.mode.cult)

if(H.current)

to_chat(H.current, "[cultName]: [input]")

 

///// DOES THE ABOVE CHECK SEND MESSAGES TO THE CULTISTS IF THEY HAVE A 'CULT MIND' OR SOMETHING????

 

 

I'll try to keep this short and sweet. I heard tell that cult is being reworked by someone, but until then these two suggestions could drastically alter how cult rounds play out, possibly for the better.

 

Suggestion 1: Make "Commune with other cultists" (communicate rune) an inherent spell available to all cultists.

 

Reasoning and justification: other antags have dedicated communication and they still have trouble organizing. At the beginning of rounds when organization is most important, cultists have a laborious and costly mechanic to communicate, or else must go off hunting for other cultists on foot or do do cult research somewhere alone. This way strategy can be discussed, coordination achieved, early words will surely be shared (instead of a noob cultist not sharing their words cause of ignorance), and essentially this gives cult a really big leg up to help them act more quickly early on and achieve more complex stratagems. rather than just get 9 cult and summon nar nar.

 

I have little doubt that this change would be simple code wise.

 

Suggestion 2: Instead of only three cultists at the start, the number of starting cultists could be a formula based on population. 3 cult against 120 crew members is a very tall order.

 

Up to 80 players 3 cult would be enough, then for every additional 20 players, there could be one extra starting cult player, but without any additional unique words (so they still only get three words to start).

 

This change might not be so easy code wise, but i reckon it's far from impossible.

 

In summation these two minor changes could drastically impact how the cult plays out. Infinite communication would allow experienced cult players to directly tutor novice cult members as well, which in and of itself could tip the scales.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Guest

[Purpose2]

 

At the least, we should try them I think.

 

Last three or so cult rounds I've played, all my cult friends got caught before research was even completed... which is just... ugh.

 

[dadols]

 

Cult is the easiest antag, if you`ve the convert rune, you`re gonna rule the station with no effort at all...

Anyway I do agree just with the first suggestion.

 

[flimflamm]

 

Cult is the easiest antag, if you`ve the convert rune, you`re gonna rule the station with no effort at all...

 

 

When people see glowing runes, they tend to blabber. Once the cult is discovered it's not so easy to get away with conversions.

 

Mind shield implants are being used by valid-hunters. Just last night after a failed conversion attempt (due to mind shield), the dude stood up when the stun wore off, pulled out a signalling device, and blew up the toxins bomb in his bag, killing myself and two other cultists (which ended the cults chances of success due to widespread incompetence within the cult)

 

You say cult is the easiest to play but it's actually the hardest. 1/10 players at most seem to know how to do cult research, and most people cannot read the wiki fast enough to learn it in a single shift.

 

Don't get me wrong, cult is probably the most powerful antag group because of the ridiculous shit they are able to do with clever magic station tech combinations (see: infinite golem cult army, humanized monkey cult resurrection, rune teleport network, etc...), but they are pretty much the most complex, making the learning curve the biggest challenge facing any cultist.

 

The real reason why as cult you cannot 'rule the station' with only the convert rune is because everyone you convert is more likely than not going to not even want a tome, and if they take one they are likely to have no idea how to use it properly. Better communication is actually probably the very best solution for this, as even mentors and the mask can hardly be arsed to consistently tutor novice cultists up the curve. This would also enable group research (two cultists working on the same word discovery from opposite ends of the tome notes).

 

How many times have you seen the cult dominate the station without using nar'sie to do so?

 

Constructs remain ineffably underused, advanced tech and open cult warfare seldom appears, and when it does is lack luster. All because people are ignorant of the possibilities.

 

[flimflamm]

 

At the least, we should try them I think.

 

Last three or so cult rounds I've played, all my cult friends got caught before research was even completed... which is just... ugh.

 

Ive taken to grabbing a communication rune and sending out a single message early on with my identity my word and instructions not to blow cover until we have words, also to reply with their identity, their word, and to not use PDA messaging, which they always seem to fucking do . But I hate having to do so because it wastes one of the precious starting talisman points.

 

If my cover isn't blown by an anxious mask popping lights ontop of me or randomly dropping construct shells on me, then it's another cultists PDA'ing me. Cover is extremely important for cult until they get research and some numbers, and anxiety runs high in cult members because they always (at least me) feel so disconnected from everyone else even if you have a stack of coms talismans in your pocket. The mask is seldom on the ball enough to actually coordinate, and has a good chance of not knowing how even if they had the mental energy.

 

I wonder how hard this would be to pull off code wise.

 

[flimflamm]

 

I was thinking about the ramifications that this might have.

 

Summon cultist is a super powerful spell but seldom actually used. Since cultists cannot scream for help when captured to their fellow cultists there's a good chance they get deconverted before the cult can get around to freeing and summoning them. A really competent mask would order three cultists to always stay put in a remote base somewhere and give them the names of any cultists in need of rescue, but it's a lot of work for one ghost to manage.

 

Organizing covert conversion attacks becomes easier. People who are good at converting can be given information on vulnerable targets, etc... More early conversion would be enabled by an inherent coms network

 

Combating security in force becomes much easier, as now all cultists can be made aware of significant security movements, on the fly, and can therefore actually coordinate against them.

 

It's actually entirely possible that this change will make cult OP. Interesting to think though, that changing nothing to the mechanics of cult magic and instead just giving them communication could make them decidedly OP (only one way to find out). Perhaps this is due to some intrinsic existing broken-ness of cult as they are. Cultists can either be expert and OP or novice and complete failures. As it stands now most cultists tend to be complete failures, and so we do not perceive cult to be OP overall. Maybe giving coms will make cult magic too easy to use for noobs and therefore OP overall, but there's only one way to find out!

 

I really hope that this change would be easy enough code wise that one of the saint-like coders has the time to give it a shot.

 

P.S: If any coder has interest in this, I reckon the simplest way to do this would be to take the existing "pray to narsie" cult ability and change the effect to produce whatever the effect of the communication rune is. The coms rune can just stay as it is and be superfluous.

 

P.P.S: Imma probably scour the github and see how it looks

 

[Purpose2]

 

I honestly feel like who Masks is a very very important element to the success of a cult round.

 

And 9 times out of 10, the mask is a new cultist who saw the button and wondered what it did.

 

[flimflamm]

 

So I think that I've correctly modified the "pray to narsie" ability in order to create a "commune" cult ability that should function more or less like a communicate rune would, just without any actual runes.

 

Here is the original code of the "pray to nar'sie" cult ability:

 

 

/obj/cult_viewpoint/verb/pray_to_mask()

set category = "Cult"

set desc = "Pray to your god"

set name = "Pray to Nar'Sie"

set src in usr

 

var/input = stripped_input(usr, "Please choose a message to say to your god.", "Pray to Nar'Sie", "")

if(!input)

return

 

cult_log("[key_name(usr,0)](Pray):[input]")

to_chat(owner, "You pray to Nar'Sie: [input]")

 

for(var/mob/spirit/spirit in spirits)

to_chat(spirit, "[get_display_name()] prays : [input]")

 

 

As far as I can tell all this ability actually does is make a "cult_log" under "pray" (I'm guessing these are related to actual logs) and then delivers the pray message to all spirits, which I'm guessing includes the mask?

 

Regardless, I've left those parts intact, and simply added a slightly modified line stolen directly from the communicate rune proc which can be found here:

 

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradis ... es.dm#L525

 

Here is the modified code with the alterations highlighted in red:

 

 

/obj/cult_viewpoint/verb/talk_to_cult()

set category = "Cult"

set desc = "Communicate with your cult"

set name = "Commune"

set src in usr

 

var/input = stripped_input(usr, "Please choose a message to tell to the other acolytes.", "Voice of Blood", "")

if(!input)

return

 

var/F = investigate_subject2file("cult")

if(!F)

return

 

to_chat(F, "[time2text(world.timeofday,"hh:mm")] \ref[usr] ([usr.x],[usr.y],[usr.z]) || [usr] communicates: [input]

")

 

cult_log("[key_name(usr,0)](Cultcomms):[input]")

to_chat(owner, "You Commune With the Cult: [input]")

 

for(var/mob/spirit/spirit in spirits)

to_chat(spirit, "[get_display_name()] communes : [input]")

 

 

Basically I added the line that I believe checks to see if players are not cult in order determine whether or not they will recieve the message, along with renaming the ability itself along with the tag-lines that seem to go into the logs. Of course this is my first attempt at coding in SS13 so there's a hgh probability that I'm missing one or multiple things in order to have this work. I may try and figure out how to test it, but if any coders read this could you please point out my errors?

 

Thanks!

 

[flimflamm]

 

I honestly feel like who Masks is a very very important element to the success of a cult round.

 

And 9 times out of 10, the mask is a new cultist who saw the button and wondered what it did.

 

Yea. I was reading the code and it turns out the Mask has a lot of abilities I've never seen before, like giving special names to acolytes. I've always wanted to mask but I feel like unless I put in the hard work as a cultist then it will all be futile.

 

A high energy and knowledgeable mask really could make a big difference though

 

[Urlance Woolsbane]

 

Suggestion #1 seems far too easy. If the cultists can rattle off all their discoveries from the start, what's to stop them from getting all their runes within in the first twenty minutes?

 

As for Suggestion #2, I'm not necessarily against the number of cultists scaling to meet the player count, but I'm not sure it's that important, seeing as the cult can grow exponentially...

 

I think the main problem with cultists is that of every antag on Paradise. Someone invariably jumps the gun and bungles it, thus raising the Alert Level to Blue or higher. This allows Security Officers to search indiscriminately, which they will do if someone so much as looks at them funnily. On a less-populated station, this wouldn't be an issue. Security would be less-staffed, and it would be much more possible to catch someone alone, etc. The solution, I think, isn't to buff antags but to increase the amount of external dangers. I played janitor once, and the experience wasn't "Janitor... IN SPACE!" or "Janitor... WITH MAYHEM!" It was merely "Janitor-With a Pimpin' Ride." It was a soothing experience, certainly, but hardly escapist. If things are running THAT smoothly, I think something's wrong.

 

Of course, this opens up a whole other can of space worms, which no doubt merits its own topic.

 

[flimflamm]

 

Suggestion #1 seems far too easy. If the cultists can rattle off all their discoveries from the start, what's to stop them from getting all their runes within in the first twenty minutes?

 

Nothing is to stop them; I can already get all the runes within the first twenty minutes. If I have two words to start with then it takes me only about 15 minutes, with 3 words even less time. Then i just tell everyone. The trouble is not usually getting the words, but rather having people actually know how to use the words once they're gotten. Although, at the beginning of the round i like to spend time preparing for my future cult plans, which entails running around a fair bit, which means I can either prepare and then do research (putting all words at around 35 minutes) or I can instantly use coms runes or find a second cultist for their word and start doing research (putting words at around 15 minutes) if the other cultists reply quickly that is.

 

I would spend much more time giving explicit instructions and explanations of cult magic to fellow cultists than I would getting them to tell me their words and helping in research. P.S: the starting talisman can already produce communicate runes, which achieves this function.

 

And yet, cult still consistently under perform. I think the only thing that has caused cult to last this long in the rotation is that summoning nar'sie is actually achievable and acts like a station nuke to end the round. With cult communicate, summoning nar'sie could either be made more difficult as a balance, be made less impactful, or be exchanged for generally more ambitious objectives like station wide dominance or shuttle hijacking, or multiple sacrifices instead of just one.

 

 

As for Suggestion #2, I'm not necessarily against the number of cultists scaling to meet the player count, but I'm not sure it's that important, seeing as the cult can grow exponentially...

Cult CAN grow exponentially, but it can also grow in a linear fashion: when I'm the only one converting.

 

Unless I were to meta my way into converting really capable cultists, there's no guarantee at all of exponential growth.

 

I think the main problem with cultists is that of every antag on Paradise. Someone invariably jumps the gun and bungles it, thus raising the Alert Level to Blue or higher. This allows Security Officers to search indiscriminately, which they will do if someone so much as looks at them funnily. On a less-populated station, this wouldn't be an issue. Security would be less-staffed, and it would be much more possible to catch someone alone, etc.

 

Admittedly, 3 cultists vs 120 crew have their future balanced on the edge of a knife at the beginning of the round. Under normal circumstances I never see these cults be successful other than summoning nar'sie and ending the round ( I don't like the Narsie mechanic). Again here I think the real crux is competency. Given the increased difficulties 40 additional crew members brings with it, having a few extra starting cultists will increase the odds of a competent cultist, and having a coms network would enable them to organize such that no cultist bungles early on.

 

 

The solution, I think, isn't to buff antags but to increase the amount of external dangers. I played janitor once, and the experience wasn't "Janitor... IN SPACE!" or "Janitor... WITH MAYHEM!" It was merely "Janitor-With a Pimpin' Ride." It was a soothing experience, certainly, but hardly escapist. If things are running THAT smoothly, I think something's wrong.

 

Of course, this opens up a whole other can of space worms, which no doubt merits its own topic.

 

When you think about it enabling a coms network inherent to cultists is one of the smallest mechanical changes that we could possibly make to them. I don't disagree that it is a buff because of the ramifications to organization and success it will have, but I also feel it is a strong change because the communication will open up possibility and dynamism to the cult.

 

In the end all I want to see are interesting rounds. Right now everyone unanimously agrees cult is problematic because it consistently fails to produce interesting rounds. IT CAN produce interesting rounds, but it takes interesting cultists, and developing cult skill is one of the more tedious curves to climb.

 

I mean, I can make a giant stack of coms talismans no problem, I can even hand them out to every cultist and force them to use them. I could go out of my way to put stacks of coms talismans into folders and distribute those so that important cultists can actually communicate efficiently, but that eats up most of my round, and out of the pool of all players signed up to be selected as cultists, most of them have probably never even attempted to do cult research before, let alone use advanced rune magic.

 

The other antag groups which have coms are: syndicate, blob, changeling, S-ling, abductor, trader/raider, xeno, all strike teams, and probably more that I'm forgetting. Would it really be so powerful to give cult a coms network relative to the aforementioned antag groups?

 

[flimflamm]

 

UPDATE!!!!!

 

I don't know if my suggestion triggered someone or if this was already in the works, but I was incredibly lucky and was selected to play as !!NEW CULT!! https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/4392.

 

Aside from a slew of alterations made to cult magic, we were also given an innate communion ability which allows cult to communicate at will!

 

For most of the round the cultists were still getting a grasp of the new ritual names and the new magical effects, but even given that setback the communion ability allowed us to organize and mobilize with fairly effective teamwork. (we still lost though heh)

 

Rather than feeling like a lone magician (hard to communicate with other cultists, and also not want to because of widespread incompetence),you actually feel like a member of something; a real cultist!

 

We bungled all our attempts at getting constructs, but in addition to this wonderful change a whole new cultist end-game now exists in the form of new constructs, cultist machines like healing pylons, gear manufacturing forges, and item sharpening altars. Summoning nar'sie is now an unlockable or last resort objective rather than an RNG one. They are now given objectives like to acquire a certain number of followers or to massacre a certain number of crew (aka, make constructs), and finally to hijack the shuttle!

 

It was only one round and there were a few bugs, but it was really joyful and a lot of work and thought went into it. I really cannot wait to try it out again and I'm sure that cult is going to be everyone's favorite round once it's implemented.

 

[Vivalas]

 

Alright kinda confused here, are you proposing changes or something?

 

Cause if you already know what github is and how to use it, might as well make a PR so that coders can see your changes and comment on them, if that's what you're looking for.

 

[Vivalas]

 

And as a coder, in regards to your code, I suppose I can comment.

 

First off I'm assuming "cult viewpoint" is a verb container that is part of the cult gamemode already, and not something you added.

 

If you copied those snippets you have questions about from the communication verb, then they probably have a use. The one that iterates through the minds and checks to see if they have a cult role enabled is indeed the one that sends the message. The first log is probably an admin log so they can see that cult is saying and cult_log is most likely logs cult events in a separate file for easy reference.

 

Suggestion 1 seems easy to implement, making things available to certain people is generally trivial.

 

Suggestion 2 would also be easy, only slightly harder than the first suggestion. I don't know how I feel about scalable cult however, the point of cult is to grow your numbers with something. If cult is competent extra roundstart manpower could be a guaranteen win, although I also agree highpop / meta and validhunting can sometimes end cult rounds before they begin, especially if cult lacks competence.

 

[flimflamm]

 

Alright kinda confused here, are you proposing changes or something?

 

Cause if you already know what github is and how to use it, might as well make a PR so that coders can see your changes and comment on them, if that's what you're looking for.

 

To be honest since I've never done any coding in SS13 I was a bit weary of actually throwing novice code onto the github. will make a submission though since that seems the logical next step.

 

 

First off I'm assuming "cult viewpoint" is a verb container that is part of the cult gamemode already, and not something you added.

 

If you copied those snippets you have questions about from the communication verb, then they probably have a use. The one that iterates through the minds and checks to see if they have a cult role enabled is indeed the one that sends the message. The first log is probably an admin log so they can see that cult is saying and cult_log is most likely logs cult events in a separate file for easy reference.

 

.

 

I did not create the "Cult Viewpoint" no. In order to make this code I hobbled it together from the communication activation rune and the pray to nar'sie cult ability (I know how to code generally, just don't know the specifics of SS13 and it's language).

 

One thing that strikes me off about it (and could use your input), perhaps the cult-viewpoint is related to ensuring that a cultist is near a rune before it activates?

 

[flimflamm]

 

So I spent some time learning about repositories and branches and PR's and merges, but when the time finally came it turned out that Aurorablade already created a brand new cult communion ability which I think is now usable for all cult varieties (if indeed there is any variety yet).

 

It's really quite the good ability.