[IPC limb reattachment]

Ziiro's was kind enough to give me his code on IPC limb reattachment and I thought it would be a fitting thing for paradise as well.
https://github.com/OracleStation/OracleStation/blob/c0db9c2b382007afc35192e40a05e613405ffd09/code/modules/surgery/bodyparts/bodyparts.dm#L64-L81
Here's the run down he gave me explaining this

"To translate what this is doing:

If you attack a person with a bodypart, it runs through this. Is the target of the attack a human? -> Do they have EASYLIMBATTACHMENT in their DNA? -> Is the bodypart organic and the target organic OR is the bodypart robotic and the target robotic? -> Do they complete this progress bar OR does someone else do it for them instantly? -> Attach limb

If any one of these checks fail, drop the attempt

Or, rather, treat it as a normal attack and whack them with the limb, actually"

[IPC's should be able to have more self repair options.]

8 hours ago, Pennwick said:

Fixing massive internal damage seems like it might be a little difficult when you'd have trouble seeing inside your own chest cavity. Besides, if you're to that point your arms are probably messed up anyway.

Popping back hands and legs seems a bit more feasible with how easily they fall off. I've lost hands to a single stray laser and I less clearly remember being decapitated in one shot as well. Ideally you'd need some extra leverage (Such as self buckling to a chair) or something but I think just being able to pop them back in slowly would be fine too. As a plus that is easier to code than the other thing. You'd need to add some code that when you 'attack' something with a robolimb it first tries to attach it, and add a longer timer if its self repair. This would also mean you'd be able to stick limbs on an IPC with them standing which doesn't seem like it'd be a problem really.

The general idea, is that if you went into crit, and then someone else brought you back from the dead. To the point to where you're standing, but there is still internal damage. you should be able to repair that. I'm unaware of the exact names of these, I believe it has something to do with a crit threshold?

[IPC's should be able to have more self repair options.]

9 hours ago, MarsMond said:

Currently, a problem with the self repairing on a table is that the IPC needs to lay down, which unless you have nodrop items, makes you drop the items from your hands. Unless there is a way to let them still do that, without them getting a general nodrop and without much snowflaking, this can't really be added.

It could be treated the same as using the crafting UI, you need X amount of items in order to do the thing you want. So It could be a racial ability like the cable charger. First, you would need to place down a screwdriver, crowbar, cable coils, and a lit welding touch on a table. Then you need to put yourself on the same space as the items or stand next to the table and initiate the racial ability. Where you could go through a lengthy self repair. The down side is that it takes longer than if someone else was repairing you. 

[IPC's should be able to have more self repair options.]

2 minutes ago, yurivw said:

I'm not sure about the whole IPC repairing their own internals, but I totally dig the part about re-attaching limbs... I lose my arm way too often.

Personally I don't think it would be game breaking, and self repair on internals could be made a LOT slower than normal repair. I think it's 1/2 seconds for normal repair, it could be 10-20 seconds for self repair on internals. So you couldn't do it on the fly, plus you would need a table before hand.

Thank you for the reply though! I'd love to hear what you think.

[IPC's should be able to have more self repair options.]

Title. If they go into crit and get revived, they should be able to lay-down on a table, open themselves up and repair any internal damage, and reattach any limbs, given they have the proper tools and parts in order to do so. Also as an example. If an IPC is missing their left arm, they can still use their right hand to repair their right arm. So it isn't a case of not being able to reach.

this doesn't make IPC's be able to get up from crit on their own, it just allows them to repair themselves fully after being "revived" by someone else.

Now while this does seem a little OP, hear me out here. These are some things that IPCs deal with currently.

* IPCs take 50% more brute and burn damage than other races, and considering those damage types are the two most common in SS13.

* IPCs instantly die by EMPS.

* IPCs are also more prone to limb amputation than other races, which messes you up fair more than people think. Missing a foot for example, massively hinders your mobility.

[Remodeled females]

7 hours ago, FoS said:

My mistake. You altered the 'before' picture and slimmed that down a little bit as well for some reason. At which point yes, the part i highlighted /is/ the abdomen because you removed the hand entirely in the before sprite. Which .dmi are you editing anyways? is it the one located in icons > mobs > human_races> r_human.dmi ?

I understand the points you're trying to make. You're approaching it from an artistic point of view and you're right that ss13 sprites in general do not make sense when it comes to realism or perspective but that isn't the point I am trying to make.

While things may not be realistic and while ss13 might be a mishmash of weird perspective choices there are reasons those choices benefit the players as a whole. When nearly every player mob uses the same base-human shape it means that our player sprites are essentially compatible with any past and future content from any other server (since...most servers use the same human sprites.).

Not everyone is an artist and not everyone wants to devote the time to change literally thousands of sprites. Vox are currently the most dramatically different bodyshape and they've been here for as long as the server has and yet hardly any of the numerous worn sprites that other player mobs can wear even fit vox.

For a sprite to be altered so much from the standard base model you essentially have to edit and make new versions of everything located in  belt.dmi/ears.dmi/eyes.dmi/hands.dmi/human_face.dmi/mask/suit.dmi/underwear.dmi/uniform.dmi. There are 330 items in uniform.dmi alone and four directions for every sprite. Even if we assume that most outfits are symmetrical and that you merely flip the east/west sprite and use the north sprite as the base for the south sprite that's still 165 sprites to make to cover that one .dmi and we're not even touching on how long that would take. There's a lot of unique outfits that are not just recolors and some outfits are terribly complicated.

You have to stop and consider that currently when people add/port new clothing/hair/worn items it generally is for the standard human shape and those people are probably not going to make versions that fit an altered female model (this is what currently happens with vox). You're going to hit a point then where human females wont be able to wear new things. This isn't the same as a game adding new content to spice things up. This is a purely cosmetic change that essentially breaks existing content and increases the workload for anyone who wants to add in new worn sprites.

 

I agree with you, well said.

[Remodeled females]

On 11/03/2017 at 10:14 PM, FoS said:

I think a little bit of confusion stems from people not understanding that ss13 mob sprite have a really strange perspective in general. What you're seeing isn't part of the hip/side/abdomen/belly it's actually the opposite hand. It's the first three pixels of the hand that stick out and it absolutely does make sense if you consider the intent behind allowing players to see at a glance both of a players hands/legs/feet when facing East/West.

 

One thing that concerns me is it looks like the East/West sprites have been changed really drastically and that's going to cause plenty of problems everytime anyone wants to add or port new sprites from anywhere else that are meant to fit humans. It's an overwhelming amount of work to refit even existing outfits but it complicates anything added in the future and truthfully it seems unlikely that any one person is always going to be around to alter every sprite to fit a new bodyshape.

I did an overlay of your example images since it was hard to tell initially how much change was made. The thing i'm concerned with is that there is significant changes to the east/west sprites and even the head position there. That means every hair/mask accessory has to be repositioned for that as well. That is..quite honestly an absurd amount of work for something that really isn't even needed. At 32 x 32 pixels i don't really think we need this.

for the green fade out of the "left" hand was actually four pixels(2x2), and honestly if it were the case no-one holds their hands out like that. it's like how FPS' handle weapons, realistically you don't always have your weapon in front of you. And the same goes with the left hand thing.

Do I think it changes gameplay? Not really, most items that would extend out from the character are related with ill intent.(except for a few small cases) but at the same time you wouldn't be able to see what someone held in their hand anyway if they were standing to the side of you.

Also the head is moved one pixel back to line up with the spine correctly(even in the default version the head is misplaced.) which I'm sure not many of you have noticed, but as soon as I did, I couldn't stop looking at it.

I understand what you're all saying but the sprites are fundamentally broken somewhat when it comes to proper anatomy, and yes in my opinion  the boobs look slightly too big but again those "giant breasts" are sticking out by one pixel. if the game allowed higher resolution sprites I could have made them better but we're limited.

Is it a lot of work? Yes, do we need it? No. But do we need anything new added to the server? That would also be no. All of the alien races aren't needed either, but it's extra content. Just because it isn't needed doesn't mean it isn't welcomed. League of legends for example has an excellent framework, it's always evolving and it never changes core gameplay elements, the developers don't need to change anything in league at all. Yet they do it anyway, to refresh the game so it doesn't become dull and repetitive. I know comparing those two games isn't the best analogy, but think why you came to the server in the first place. Was it because it wasn't like the others? You can only set up the solars; make pills, or physically abuse the clown so many times before it becomes too repetitive to continue.

[Remodeled females]

1 hour ago, Shadeykins said:

I don't like the side overhang on the sprites. We have some feminine jumpsuits already and I think you should take inspiration from those instead which make use of shading on the jumpsuits rather than changes in the actual size.

The female sprites just look fat, which is the problem I'm trying to fix. for example the sprite I was working on had a bell of four pixels, I'm not even joking. it went past the jumpsuit. so I had to trim that down for the picture because even then it looked too weird to compare the two like that. But to answer your question- No one looks/cares about the shading for the most part. What actually stands out is the contrast between the character and floor. which is what people look at 80-90% of the time they encounter another player.(beside major details in the suit their wearing. yellow for engineering, white for medical etc) so with that in mind I opted to work on the silhouette instead.

[Remodeled females]

5 hours ago, Fruerlund said:

Agreeing with Fox here. This is one of those things I feel we should  just leave out and not worry about in general. 

to each their own I suppose, although you would be right in saying that one of the defining features of females would be breasts- which is normally accompanied by a slimmer figure compared to that of a male.

[Remodeled females]

2 hours ago, Rurik said:

Looks like a good improvement to me

Thank you very much!

[Remodeled females]

35 minutes ago, FlattestGuitar said:

Are you planning on respriting all clothes in the game to fit that sprite?

That's...a lot of work.

I probably will, if I get good feedback on these sprites.

[Remodeled females]

Long story short, I played an IPC character, got a little miffed that all IPC's are bulky. I wanted some to be not so bulky. Made a post, talked to a few people in the post. one thing lead to another now I made templates for the female body/jumpsuits. I have the right side and front complete, I just want some opinions on them before I go and make/change anymore.

Here you'll see the new model vs the old one.

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

As I started messing around with it more, I've started to remodel the (human)female body/suit design to look more feminine.

Also for whatever reason the default human body has a giant belly- It's weird.

But yeah! My thought process now is that it wont matter if I change the IPC body as long as the default suit looks the same.

So far I've remodeled the side angle of the human female body and jumpsuit.

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

3 minutes ago, AffectedArc07 said:

why do we need this? 

It's more of a quality of life kinda thing. Not needed, but wanted.

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

1 minute ago, Shadeykins said:

As said before, it's going to require you to look at every single jumpsuit/uniform in the game and make the slimmer alternatives. While it is good in principle, when standing east/west the bodies in SS13 are only about 5-6 pixels wide, and north/south it's like 7-9.

 

If you can find a way to make it not look terribly janky that would be fantastic. I just don't really see it being doable, since it's going to call for a reduction of a pixel on either side (you need to take from either side, or the sprite won't be centred on tiles) which equates to a 15-30% trimming of the sprite's size (very substantial).

 

It may be more conducive to look into using a percentile reduction (much the way dwarfism works) and code in a better filter for downsizing/upsizing. Right now things that are upsized/downsides utilize a "best quality" filter which blends nearby pixels (which is why you get that fuzzy appearance) rather than a bicubic or nearest neighbour approach (which would preserve pixel density/not blend things.

 

If you do go the route of male/female parts make sure you *absolutely* get a coder (if you're unfamiliar with BYOND) and lock the options to people who select female. The vast majority of "male" IPC's are already the ones picking the feminine hairstyles/body colours, so if you don't restrict it you're going to get male IPC players picking the female parts which negates the entire purpose of your suggestion/idea.

Yep! that's the goal, I can make the sprites, but anything code related- I will need help with. Also someone brought up the suggestion of my parts being in its own company. Which from what you're saying. would make it a lot easier code wise.

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

2 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

You can already tell IPC's apart based on hairstyles, because 90% of them now have hair.

 

I have yet to see a male with the floor-length braid on SS13 (which is a little surprising).

I think you're missing my point here. It's because of the lack of definition that the hair styles are NEEDED to tell genders apart from one another. Which is pretty limiting considering that most if not all of the IPC parts are very bulky and bleh looking to begin with. 

What I want from it, is to have definition between them. Nothing overly sexual or suggestive. Just a simple reshape.

Once again, if I could get the needed assets, I'll do it myself. Also have a look at the image link I posted before, I'm aiming to have it like that. It isn't overly obvious but if you keep looking you can tell them apart.

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

15 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

Not even humans have substantial differences between male/female on this game.

 

As someone who has played IPC *a lot* and had it as their first karma unlock (over two years ago) I really don't see the need for this. It honestly just sounds like something arbitrary (especially for a species of robots) that would add a huge amount of overhead for respriting jumpsuits (because let's face it, you're always going to be wearing one which will make this a moot point anyhow).

See, the reason for that is because of hair styles. That's more or less how you tell one from the other without looking at the names of course. honestly I could re-sprite all of them, it isn't that hard. It would just take time. And considering that most if not all suits are the same shape- all you would have to do is reshape one>apply it to all of them>then recolor accordingly. It's more tedious than anything else really.

I'm not talking about reshaping all clothing items, hard-suits for example would make no sense. Just the more form fitting ones would be a good candidate for this

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

3 minutes ago, Dumbdumn5 said:

Elite, eh? Me and @KasparoVv both. There are a bunch more to boot, but I'm just stating the one I know the best, keep in mind I may be slow due to school and being a nerd. (Also, holy crap, didn't know this pinged me on my desktop, thing's kinda cool.)

 

No need to rush with the replies, feel free to do it when you have time!

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

2 hours ago, scrubmcnoob said:

Poor word choice on my part. I used the word 'code' to just mean work.

But yes, if some one wants to sprite it in and upload it to the Git and make a PR to make male frames and female frames, I can't see much opposition.

How big are the sprite boxes exactly? and any other information you could offer would help me regarding this. I'll see if I can make a few. Also, I'm not sure if you know this but changing the body color on an IPC makes it stupidly bright.

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

Just now, scrubmcnoob said:

No complaint from me.

If some one wants to code that in, good stuff.

Does it actually need that much code for it to work? Couldn't it just be a simple sprite change? I would of thought it would be more work to reshape outfits than it would be for coding.

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

2 minutes ago, scrubmcnoob said:

Keyword 'Fairly Realistic Manner'

They wouldn't build private parts because they're going be in some type of clothing and is pointless as it will never be seen and serves zero purpose.

An arm built to resemble a human arm is different because you actually see the arm.

again this is why I said slimmer frame. Go have a look at the body parts for the IPC's. all of them are stupidly bulky

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

Also for whatever reason, I can't edit a post. But I wanted to add this in, I'm not talking about having obscene genitalia, just a slimmer frame compared to that of the parts we have right now. Titanfall 2 does it really well. http://conceptartworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Titanfall_2_Concept_Art_HS-07.jpg

I know you only have so many pixels to work with, while making the sprites but it can be done.

[feminine and masculine IPC body parts?]

"IPCs are generally made of metal and plasteel with glass circuit internals. Their build resembles that of a humanoid, simply made of hydraulic parts. Often incorporating synthetic muscles, IPCs are capable of using cybernetic limbs designated for other species. >>Often IPCs choose to model their chassis to resemble another species’ build in a fairly realistic manner."<<

Pulled straight from the wiki. and considering it's lore for the race, as well as this being a roleplay server. Lore plays a huge part into what happens/is happening right now. So why isn't there any feminine/masculine parts for them? It would make sense for them to have it.

Also, please no ERP-jokes/jokes or things along those lines. Let's actually have a discussion about this, instead of it being someone dismissing it without giving real reasons as to why.

[Rewarded for giving karma.]

Quote

FlattestGuitar

wrote:\Also, most of the time the people complaining are the ones who aren't cool enough to get karma, but I didn't say that.

Because the system, by it's nature, creates a "Cool Kids Club" mentality and encourages giving rewards to people who did you favors and you liked, not people who actually roleplayed.
Whoops, did I just say -that- out loud.

I get 98% of my karma doing surgery real fast and getting people out of medbay pronto. Almost never as a Miner or a Civvie or chaplain, even when I'm spending all my time talking to roleplaying with folks and trying to make stuff happen.
System's working, but not as intended,

(not sure why but I think that post got deleted.)  Dinarzad explains it pretty well. If you aren't a part of a group or have an easy job for getting karma. It's a lot harder to get it, even if you're good at roleplay and make rounds interesting, more often than not you wont get any karma for your efforts. Do I think my suggestion fixes this problem? No I don't, but it's a step in the right direction to fix this somewhat broken system, making it so all jobs can gain karma equally.

[Rewarded for giving karma.]

 

After talking to a lot of people about this, I've noticed that the number one problem they have- Is that they forget giving karma altogether.

I feel like they would be more encouraged to give karma to others, if they got some in return.

 

So the idea I'm proposing is that after every 5-10 karma given to other players. You get one karma for doing so.

 

Thoughts on this?