[Minimum sentient animal protections]

On the on hand, i get it, it sucks to be minding your own business and get a welder to the face as an animal,  but on the other hand i cannot count the number of times an animal has come into my workspace for the sole reason of being a disruptive attention hog. If some pet wants to repeatedly push me away from a machine, then i want to be rid of them and at times the threat of harm is all they respect

[The Case for Minor Antags]

1 hour ago, Mitchs98 said:

Most of what I'd say has already been said. However I'll touch on a few points that I don't think were. And, keep in mind, I'd be fine with minor antags in the round depending on how their objectives and them are handled.

1. 

This is simply untrue. Non-EOCs get brigged CONSTANTLY often even more than actual antags do. There's almost always someone breaking Space Law, and doing so doesn't mean they're self antagging(in a good chunk of cases, anyways).

2.

Security already does this, frequently.

3.

A Stetchkin is C-Class. Unless you're committing crime with it, usually shooting someone unwarranted, you won't land yourself in perma for having it unless the security team in question has no idea what's on the contraband list.

4.

Space Law shouldn't be designed to hinder security and their activities, no. While I'm all for giving security more to do on particularly slow shifts and more stuff for the Detective and Magistrate to do; I am wholeheartedly against any sort of design that's just 'Make this more frustrating for X job in order to attempt to make it more engaging/facilitate more RP'.

5.

This is also something I've seen mentioned a lot throughout your suggestion. The very vast majority of cases security already doesn't immediately jump to lethals unless they're legally allowed to do so or the situation is extreme enough to warrant it(in which case, they're typically allowed to use it). And if they do, they'll be banned or warned.

Now. As for the suggestion itself. I'd much rather them be more sort of nuisance makers, light sabotage and such, certain specific steal objectives that aren't any sensitive items. As if you include sensitive items you're more than likely going to get perma'd regardless of having S-Class. 

I feel they could work. But they shouldn't just be 'Traitor but with gear limitations'.

There's very little I can respond to here that doesn't amount to 'My experience with this game has been vastly different than yours'. Points 1, 2 and 5 count as this. Not much more to say unless someone brings out statistics.

3: You're the second person to fixate on the stetchkin despite it not really being salient to the point made, which is that generally speaking the crew has no reason to hold on to illegal maint loot because of the risks associated.

4: If not being able to immediately whip out the lasers is a cause of frustration, maybe security attracts the wrong kind of players. Sec's job should involve a bit of investigation before the gunplay, in my humble opinion.

[The Case for Minor Antags]

1 hour ago, Eric6426 said:

Thing is, the X0-1 isn't the only thing there that would get them perma. Hand-Tele and Vault-Documents are also perma if you rob them, which are two of the "Good" objectives underlined by you, the only would be the "bring target to X" - Although, to chip in, I do vaguely remember there being (Maybe in TG?) a mechanic to plant a bug in an item/room, which could reasonably work for such.

And they are. We ain't going to get involved if you hack a medvendor and steal a brute mender. We will, however, get involved when you're a major distraction to security / steal some high-risk item or something that you really shouldn't steal (As a non-antag) Much like above, documents/hand tele would be an issue.

 It really never is 'random' or done with OOC knowledge. I, much like many others who have played, also see Mr Antag Main wearing a Transilvania Coat in a round with an already confirmed vampire but no one actually bothers them, but when you're a no ID mask-wearing miner in maints, or hacking into a place, security will 'random' or reasonably search you, they don't act on OOC knowledge, the antag just doesn't actually pass off like someone doing their job (And you can always ahelp if they seek you out for some OOC reason, yet they're allowed to just random search depending on alert level/evidence they may have)

Security don't... use lethal force against unreasonable things though? If the antagonists falls within the "Lethals Allowed+" class in Space-Law they're allowed to, they don't lethal people who aren't lethalable most if not always, because lethaling 'everyone' because 'muh antag redtext' gets you issues. I do agree it's not the worst idea, but truthfully Traitors always get treated with ease because they always use the same items (S class) which is the class that's outward about it, and I personally don't think sec needs *too* much to bog brig, they're often overworked, and things like Dynamic/More ease using labor-camp would help make this better, however that's just my 50 cents, I'm neither a maint nor a head, which both would really be required to push this through, and would need *massive* work done restructuring and replanning things, at that, however it'd need a ton of planning, which is why I've chipped at some things that could be issues.

Going point by point again.

 

My point in making those possible objectives is to change space law so that certain things which a minor antag could do would no longer be treated as perma offenses. There's meant to be overlap between minor and normal antag objectives to create confusion as to which is which.

I can only comment on my own experiences, but the brig is left unused 9/10 rounds for anything but perma prisoners in my experience. Either non-antag players are afraid of doing crime to the point that it's restricted to the worst graytiders, or the level of crime non-antags are comfortable with almost never gets reported. Either way, there is always an extreme level of clarity in who is and is not an EoC, and that's what I want to target.

And of course, it seems you and I have very different experiences, because I've not known the average seccie to pass by a chance to random search someone if it means catching an antag. The fact that they're given the latitude to do random searches encourages the use of OOC knowledge to antag hunt. Part of my objective here is to invalidate at least some of that OOC knowledge by creating 'false positives' in the hunt for EoCs.

And lastly, I suppose that depends on what you qualify as reasonable. If by reasonable you mean 'allowed', then very little is unreasonable. My problem is that sec very often will push to the furthest extreme of what their position allows in order to get the strongest gear. This is allowed, but I wouldn't call it reasonable. This proposal isn't even aimed to change what they're allowed to lethal, just to slow the process of them escalating force by making it less clear if they're dealing with an EoC. This is also why I want to create more situations where clearly illegal gear is in the hands of non-EoCs, to obfuscate the real EoCs.

 

I think the bulk of the work regarding this is examining space law and balancing what gear minor antags get. The antags themselves would only be altered forms of tots, and I don't think that adding possible spawns to maint loot would be excessively difficult. It would obviously have a massive effect on security to know that there will be times that they will catch an antag and have to release them later, but in my experience at least, SOMETHING needs to change between EoCs and Sec, because imo that dynamic is in a miserable kill-or-be-killed state right now even if your antag objectives are pretty tame. This is my best idea for that.

[The Case for Minor Antags]

8 hours ago, robveelben said:

Great Idea but I have something I am worried about.

 

A few things here about how contraband law is set up. (This is from my understanding of those laws)
Most maint loot you can find is not S-Class but C-Class which is very different in consideration to how Space Law works

Lets say you found Stechkin this is also called an syndicate pistol in the wiki and is considered C-Class contraband which means if you did no other crimes you will be brigged for contraband.

The mayor but here is if you didn't commit any other crimes which in most cases with C-Class contraband would be the case.
I think this idea would work better if there is an D-Class contraband level where if you used these items with an other crime it would not upgrade the contraband crime to an perma sentance.

 

 

Perhaps mentioning the stetchkin muddied the waters a bit, but the loot I want added to maints is a smattering of non-lethal S-Class items. I view the Access Tuner as the perfect example of this. Other good examples would be the Agent ID Card and the Chameleon Security HUD. Additionally, now that I'm thinking about it, it might also be a good idea to touch up the Class C list so that players can simply run around with voice changers and modulators freely, and stuff like that. I'm not opposed to adding a new class of contraband to the list, but the thing I'm trying to facilitate here is increasing the amount of contraband non-antag crew wants to carry.

 

4 hours ago, Charliminator said:

Theres one thing I think you havent considered. "less talky more shooty" isnt LRP. RP stands for Role play, if you are playing the role of a space terrorist whos out for murder, detaining them with violence is a good way to play your role as a security officer. 

why without the use of perma? all the objectives you've listed would be dealt with perma, and it would be kind of low roleplay to not permanently imprison someone for stealing stations top secret documents. 

 

In theory, I agree with your first point, but if your ENTIRE interaction with an antag boils down to 'I saw a baton, bring out the lethals', that isn't RP. If there is no meaningful interaction beyond 'identify target, shoot target', that's basically the same level of RP you get playing an online shooter.

 

As for the second, I view it as essential that these minor antags not end up in perma because the primary purpose for them existing is to make it less clear for security what they're dealing with. If you can just shove the minor antags in perma, then they don't serve this purpose, because you're essentially treating them mostly the same as other antags. Security must correctly identify and build a case against the non-obvious, non-minor antags before the use of perma. This is intentional and to make the security-antag interactions less straightforward, and non-violent tots can take advantage of having a smokescreen that separates them from how security treats Chainsaw Man.

 

1 hour ago, Eric6426 said:

To add to Charlie's previous post

Alongside that this would impact two things:
1- How do players actually see if someone's self-antagging (And should ahelp them)? The previous objectives are mostly antag objectives or relevant enough to disturb the round, however if say a non-antag clown steals the X-01 then after resisting gets arrested and has no S class and whines about not being a traitor, they're ahelped on suspicion on doing it just to self-antag. As a 'thief' they'd be practically impossible to report from players, making our job (hi) harder since admins cannot pay attention to 100% of the logs and happenings of the round at all times, specially in low admin-numbers.

2- Even if they were added (with all the changes of S-class, C-class, security brigging changes, etc) what would they come from? Traitors? Changelings and Vampires for-sure cannot be 'minor' in much way, the former is a KOS when detected and the latter's abilities are extremely blatant and instant EOC. Traitor... works? But they'd need to either: Take from the current pool of Traitors, or add more on top. Latter would add too many antags, mid/highpop security is already overwhelmed by normal tots (pray for them if they get 3 hijackers in one round/malf AI too) and the former would make rounds far calmer, which people, specially those who like the action and chaos of Paradise, would heavily dislike.

Its not really 'LRP' to no-word shoot the murderer. Or if you break into a heavily restricted area, get instantly shot and then talked to. Security and Antagonists roleplay plenty, when its reasonable. Sometimes not as much as they could, sure, but if you're a really obvious Terrorist/Blood-Sucker/Cling with either S-class or abilities known to be of that EOC you're just asking for security to take care of you. Charlie explained it very well on his first post. Antags who haven't been outwardly found will simply be searched/put on monitor/detained for questioning. And if sec cannot pin anything on them, they're released.

 

 

For your first point, I specifically mentioned that stealing the X0-1 was a bad example of a minor antag objective. This is because it's an item which can directly cause a level of harm and destruction that stealing secret documents cannot. And, if the clown resists arrest, there is already a minor offense for resisting arrest. As for other thefts...well, this ties back into what I said previously, that most forms of crime are considered self-antagging. Honestly, I think that except in extreme cases like the X0-1, thefts should be handled IC unless a given player starts making a habit of constantly being an ass every round and stealing everything not bolted down. Perhaps it's a matter of picking your demons, because I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that the level of roleplay between sec and antagonists is where it should be right now.

 

For the second point, this is a bit harder to answer since I don't really have that kind of under-the-hood perspective, but I think that the possibility of having one or two minor antags in addition to the normal ones would be fine. To be honest, the minor antags fulfill most of their purpose if sec merely knows there is a possibility they exist and have to adjust their behavior accordingly. Addressing the rest: I did already mention that Chainsaw Man still gets treated business as usual. If you're wandering around murdering openly, then it's still open season. The area I'm specifically targeting is when sec deals with the more 'subtle' antags. It's pretty frequent for an officer to see the way an antag is acting, instantly know they're an antag with OOC knowledge, and perform a 'random' search. Additionally, having another class of antag that is specifically NOT EoC should make security more hesitant to pull out lethal force without being sure the antag in question is a lethal threat. Space Law does way too much work in simplifying the process of declaring someone an EoC. I want to make that process muddier. As I mentioned in my first post, as long as using the maximum level of allowed violence is the path of least resistance, it will be taken more often than not.

[The Case for Minor Antags]

So Paradise is known as THE MRP server. Action and roleplay. For the most part, this holds up, even...except when Security and Antagonists interact. Theirs is a very binary, LRP connection. Either you're an EoC or you're not an EoC, and if you ARE an EoC, less talky more shooty. People often say they want more RP from antags, but nothing is ever done to address the material conditions which lead to nonstop, speechless combat between security and antags.

The biggest and most significant cause of this problem is that the path of least resistance for dealing with antags is violence in every circumstance. There is not a single kind of antag where the ultimate solution isn't some form of combat. Adding to this is that combat isn't even the last resort or the brilliant climax of the interaction, but the first and last step in most instances, even in cases like with Contractors where most of the threat is theoretical rather than immediate(The baton is decidedly nonlethal, but the idea that they MIGHT survive long enough to get a bunch of TC is impetus enough to kill them.) Space law itself is designed in such a manner that it not only facilitates this process, but streamlines it with simple, black and white rules: If EoC, fighting time. If spicy EoC, killing time. There are theoretical rules for dealing with non-antag lawbreakers, but the fact is that most things that could land you in the brig without being an EoC qualify as self-antagging and thus it's relatively rare for non-EoCs to be brigged. All of these things together create a sort of clarity that makes knowing when you're allowed to bring out the guns clear as day, and thus security does so without hesitation the moment escalation is possible. There is NEVER a benefit to talking to an antag for security, at least not before they're tucked away in perma with little to no leverage. And you can argue that role-play is not necessarily about taking the easiest route possible, but when you have a game with victory and defeat conditions, almost every player in this system will prioritize victory.

So to address this problem, as well has bring in a few other side benefits, I propose three things:

1) The addition of 'minor' antagonists, who will be restricted from killing except in defense of their own lives, and who will have objectives such as theft and minor acts of sabotage. They will have enough TC to maybe buy one or two tools from a curated list of syndie gear that only includes non-lethal equipment. They will NOT be classified as EoCs. They will otherwise function as traitors with their own uplinks.

2) Moving the designated gear from the minor antagonists out of class S. This is ESSENTIAL for the creation of ambiguity security must face when determining if someone is a minor antagonist or an EoC.

3)Allow some of the gear from the minor antagonist list to spawn in maints. This creates yet more ambiguity and weakens the 'random searches' sec can do on the people that they OOCly recognize antag behavior in.

 

So, breaking it down point by point:

1)Adding minor antags is primarily intended to create a class of antagonist that forces Sec to make use of the non-perma part of the brig, to spend valuable time and energy trying to deduce who is and is not an EoC. Sec would need to figure out who to prioritize and when to let crimes slip because there's something more pressing and dealing with crime is no longer as simple as shoot the crime until it goes away. In essence, minor antagonists are a smokescreen for greater threats, making it more difficult for security to escalate force legally. It also has the side benefit of adding the sort of minor chaos which doesn't fundamentally impede the station from functioning but does provide more roles and entertainment for players. It's important that the objectives the minor antags are not the sort which ruin the station.

GOOD minor antag objectives: Steal a hand teleporter, Steal Secret Documents, bring target to a location.

BAD minor antag objectives: Subvert a synthetic, sabotage the RnD servers, steal the X-01.

The objectives, whatever they may be, should never be something that hinders a station much, but is very clearly a crime that sec must deal with non-lethally and without the use of Perma.

Another side benefit of having minor antags is that players who might be intimidated by being antagonist have a lower-pressure environment to practice crimes.

2) The gear I'm aiming for these minor antagonists to have are things such as access tuners, boxed space suits, storage implants, and other similar items which do not have a direct offensive application. It's ESSENTIAL that these be moved off of class S where they are present, to ensure minor antags don't end up in perma and to give more plausible deniability to other antags who might possess such items. Of course, they will still be confiscated when found, but they won't be a perma sentence, nor will they result in a tracker. Security will need to build a stronger case against someone before declaring them an EoC. This potentially gives more relevance to the detective and magistrate. My overarching theory here is that Space Law does too much to facilitate security's activities, and should instead be more of a hindrance, preventing them from taking the 'easy way' of escalating force. Because that IS the easy way. The more sec is able to escalate, the easier it is for them to fall into that mindset of 'Redtext at any cost'. It's important to note that this doesn't in any way affect security's ability to escalate against biohazards, war declarations, or any such things, because it will still be obvious within space law that such are station-wide emergencies which must be dealt with decisively. This really only would create leeway for changelings, traitors, and vampires who might possess things they shouldn't and get hit with the inevitable meta-knowledge fueled 'random search'.

 

3)Right now, there is loot in maints that is illegal for the crew to hold, and most of the time the crew has no incentive to do anything other than turn it in to sec or science because the alternative is getting searched and thrown in perma for having a stetchkin in their bag. Illegal maint loot should be a precious treasure hoarded even by non-antag crew members, to further create confusion as to who is or is not EoC, and to facilitate this, and to add plausible deniability to the minor and non-minor antags, more illegal loot should be added to maints that won't land anyone in perma.

 

All three of these things together are meant to obfuscate the process of determining who is and is not an EoC. Certain things like being a Chainsaw Man will still land you the KoS without much fuss, but now, if you're just someone with an access tuner who got caught in the vault, you might be a burglar rather than a syndie, so Sec can't just toss you in perma and call it a win. By making it harder for sec to immediately go to the highest level of force possible, I think this will encourage players exploring other options. Interrogations, playing dumb, and all sorts of speech-based interactions can happen when your local antag isn't rightfully assuming they'll be shot mid-sentence. The opportunity to deprive an antag of valuable TC gear still gives sec some sort of win for catching you, but you have a second chance to complete your objectives even if you're an antag forced to convince security you're a lesser threat than you actually are.

 

In closing, as long as security can be sure that you're either an EoC or not an antag at all, there will not be meaningful roleplay between security and antags. By providing a middle ground, a gray option which allows the possibility of being an antag without being an EoC, it opens a dialogue between security and their targets, a chance to de-escalate and force Security to reconsider bringing out lethals.

 

 

[Issues with the Brig Phys]

I second not generally seeing brigbay preferred over medbay, primarily because there generally isn't actually a risk to using medbay. Medbay is tiny compared to the amount of traffic it receives, and if an antag tries anything during treatment it's nearly guaranteed to be seen by someone else. 

[1st Survey Results Discussion]

Regarding RP and antagonists, there are a few problems I've had:

Firstly: As an antag, I feel like my options for RP are very limited. If I take any action which potentially reveals me to the crew, I basically have to rely on the fact that I'm going to have security and potentially powergamers hunting me for the rest of the round. As such, the most optimal thing to do in most circumstances is to make sure there are absolutely ZERO witnesses to whatever I need to do. This means either avoiding all RP entirely, or leaving no survivors when I have to be hostile. In return, this reinforces to the crew to treat me as a KoS threat, because essentially I'm pushed into being one. I don't really want to kill if I don't have to, but not doing so often compromises my survival chances greatly. I don't like having to choose between RP and continued participation in the round. I feel like the main solution here is actually to take a look at SOP and Space Law to make it harder for people to kill or even start hunting an antag before a certain threshold is met. More leniency in acting suspiciously without committing crimes is needed, else I will feel forced into sticking with the most optimal routes to victory, because victory and survival are essentially synonymous in many cases. 

 

Secondly, this was briefly touched on with the Mech discussion, is that late in the round the crew simply has too many lethal toys to play with. Part of what pushes antags into playing without RP is the fact that if they stall, high tech weapons will start coming out and they'll have almost no chance of survival. In my early days of SS13, one of the biggest sources of enjoyment I had was the paranoia that antags could instill. Now that's gone because I know that antags are the ones who should be terrified of psychotic crew members with high tech guns and nearly indestructible mechs, who will hunt them down using their X-ray implants. It's simply too easy for crew to steamroll the 'normal' threats to a station in the lategame, so all antags who want to live do their best to finish up before lategame comes.Aside from science I've also had multiple rounds where I've seen mining, having had time to loot lavaland and get bored with it, come onto the station, stumble on an antag, and steamroll them into oblivion with weapons security can only drool over.

 

Last thing I want to bring up, is that despite about 600 hours of crew play time, I'm still fundamentally unsure about how straight-laced the admins want players to be. I still see people arguing over how literally to take Crewsimov. Sometimes it seems like AI overriding door timings is just common sense and other times it's powergaming. Sometimes Sec is just throwing people in cells as they see crimes, other times there's a lengthy investigation. Sometimes the admins are meme'ing the heads, sometimes they're bwoinking the heads for meme'ing themselves. There's just this fundamental insecurity about where lines are drawn in how a player is allowed to behave which makes me afraid to exhibit any spontaneity because it seems the only way to learn the boundaries is to get the bwoink after the fact, and it varies admin by admin. This ties in to the whole LRP-MRP-HRP discussion a bit, but it seems like there's no actual definition on what MRP means.

[Some mediborg suggestions]

On 8/21/2019 at 3:22 AM, constatinus said:

I think the mediborg should have something like a suffocation treating chemical, because once it gets below 65 epinephrine is no logner useful. Maybe replace epinephrine with salbutamol (or something else)? I think that would make it still kinda fair.
Also, the mediborg has saline-glucose solution for healing brute and burn damage. But it heals the really slow, like 0.6 units per cycle. Think this is a bit weak, but if this doesnt get accepted its not that big of a deal.
Aurorastation has a chemistery gripper, it probably it can store multiple pills, bottles and beakers. This would be cool to implement in paradise.
Last change, again from aurorastation: When changing chemicals, you have to click the hypospray to "scroll" through them. This is a bit hard to do and hit, and auroras solution is much better. Have the chemicals pop up in chat, and then you can just click on them to change.

EDIT: forgot to add, the hypospray refills only the selected chemical. However, if this is not a bug, please make it refill the other chemicals as soon as the selected one gets full.

As a frequent mediborg player, the only part of this I agree with is that you shouldn't have to continually cycle your hypospray to refill it, which is just annoying. However, that being said mediborgs are EXTREMELY robust healers, and don't really need buffs else doctors would be entirely useless in comparison. No, mediborgs do not have a direct way of treating suffocatoin, however, they have all of the means to treat the cause of the suffocation, and through creative use of their mini-defib, epi, and surgery can effectively make suffocation damage not matter. If you know your stuff, the list of medical problems you can't deal with on your own basically amounts to transplants, implants, heart death, debridement, and IV placement(though I honestly wouldn't mind if mediborgs could manipulate IVs, creative use of saline and surgery can keep someone alive as long as they are above 20% blood). This is more or less fine, because for their extreme power, cyborgs should also have a more narrow scope than humans.

[Security cyborg buffs]

I think the big disparity between opinions here comes from the fact that against relatively 'minor' threats, such as a traitor or some other non-station-destroying entity, secborgs are extremely robust, having immunity to many environmental hazards and status effects that normal security officers suffer from, but when a threat starts to spiral out of control, they lose relevance fast because a lot of the most major hazards are beastly at melee range or have close-range EMPs(yes, I know tators can get emps too, but with limited TC you don't actually see it universally). So, on the one hand, in the early game you have a mostly unstoppable force in the form of the sec borg, who can charge and stun or fire almost unlimited disabler shots against most humanoid targets, but on the other hand you have a useless hunk of metal that will die the moment it gets anywhere near a blob or savvy cultist or xenomorph. The problem isn't that borgs are overpowered or underpowered, it's that their niche becomes outdated the moment the round starts becoming difficult unless the station gets illegals, which does not consistently happen due to all of the moving, sometimes random parts involved.

[Kudzu Blob]

So it's probably been suggested before, but a subtype of blob that is kudzu would be pretty neat. Instead of having a central core, kudzu blob would be decentralized, and if even one vine persists the antag persists. Chemical storage would be used to induce mutations within the kudzu, and the primary gameplay of the kudzu would be managing which mutations spread so that weaker vines don't block off your stronger vines as all have some degree of automatic spread. As far as difficulty of implementation, all of the assets are probably already in the game already, but I don't know how difficult it would be to code abilities that mutated vines on command.

[Nerf to Mining]

9 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

Scientists have access to every part of their department sans Robotics. RnD, which can be maxed out really early on, can certainly be a major support tool for a person that wants to go crazy. 

Toxins, again... who openly runs around with a bomb in hand? It's easy to conceal, and very deadly. 

Annnd you're still glossing over xenobiology and scichem. 

Robotics, especially early on... really only needs a Ripley (hell, even an Odysseus is amazing in the right circumstances) to do crazy stuff. Not to mention IRCs they can get after mining brings in their first haul most rounds, implants they can make and install fairly easily...

 

Mining isn't really out there. Again, I have no issues with proper SoP regarding what they can do on station, but I think you're making a big deal over nothing. A mechanical nerf isn't necessary to most of these items.

My point IS that if there's no mechanical nerf at least there should be some sort of adjustment to SOP/Space Law preventing miners from walking around with killing gear in hand at all times, because no other department can legally do that. As far as making a big deal over nothing, I suppose that depends on what side of the issue you're on, because I've never seen a blob/xeno/tspider round instantly discovered by a scientist or a roboticist or a chemist walking around with dangerous items looking for trouble. Can't say the same for mining, where it's a frequent occurrence.

[Nerf to Mining]

25 minutes ago, Leanfrog said:

Most rounds the majority of the time will be spent on red alert meaning robotics can build combat exos whenever, and more often than not a toxins bomb isn't going to be visible before it goes off, non antags also have no reason to be hoarding these things as they don't serve them any purpose or would result in a rules violation, what RnD can make indirect weapons as well as some of the most powerful non syndie implants in the game

My entire point in bringing those up is that they have rules that govern them. A miner, once they get back on the station, is just someone loaded up to ERT levels without any governance past the most basic 'don't get caught attacking people without reason' bit. They don't even have to keep their weapons hidden on green.

[Nerf to Mining]

11 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Science doesn't get in trouble for carrying most items unless they're blatantly using it maliciously, which can be said the same for miners using their items. I don't think you really know what you're talking about. 

Or maybe we've just had vastly different experiences. RnD can't start making weapons and taking them out of the department, roboticists need permission from the HoS to even think about combat mechs, and the moment a toxins bomb becomes visible outside of toxins sec starts really buzzing.

[Crash Bunker]

Server is asleep, post wetskrell.

[Nerf to Mining]

14 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Who in their right mind walks around with a maxcap in hand lmfao

And that's also glossing over scichem, which can easily fill a spray bottle with lube or other chemicals and go to town. 

Or xenobiology, for that matter. 

My point stands. Science has much easier access to far more deadly equipment much earlier in than mining. 

Regardless, I'm fine with SoP changes to miners carrying around weapons they find... but not game mechanic changes. Mining itself doesn't need a nerf in my eyes. 

My point is that if science or chemistry walks around with almost any of the dangerous stuff they make, people react. Nobody bats an eye at a miner with a meathook...which despite needing to be aimed, has a fast projectile speed, making it pretty easy to aim. A miner can walk around with all of their loot fully visible, and security won't react at all. Whether it be an SOP change or personal lockers or something, something needs to change about them being about to walk around with weapons visible without any consequence when literally nobody else can. Even gateway and space explorers at least need to keep their weapons in their bags.

[Nerf to Mining]

18 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Science can and does do way worse with much less effort. Scichem and toxins alone is horrific in the right hands. If people are hunting for antagonists before any are known, admin help it. We'll deal with it. 

The big difference is that a guy walking around with a maxcap is far more likely to be stopped by security than a guy walking around with a meathook or hiero staff. The people who talked about there needing to be SoP about it and how there's nothing enforced about mining loot on station are right.

[Nerf to Mining]

45 minutes ago, Leanfrog said:

That's against the rules then, that's valid hunting and you ahelp that when you see it.

I'm not sure how I could prove my case, but even that doesn't really deal with the idea that giving miners the opportunity to become overpowered killing machines without the restrictions and duties of being security has not resulted in a good play experience for me at least.

[Nerf to Mining]

10 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

Most, if not all, of those 'valid' antagonists are being chased by the rest of the crew as well. Miners having gear that enables them to do so effectively that they earned isn't a big deal. 

The mechanic is meant to build and repair pods, nothing more or less.

I've seen tons of miners hunting in maint before a threat is ever revealed, but even then, just because they 'earn' the gear doesn't mean it's good that there's a secondary security force on the station with fewer restrictions and duties. Like, you can have a super-challenging gauntlet with a Staff of Instant Gibbing as the reward at the end, but even if the reward is 'earned' doesn't mean that it's a good idea for it to exist in the first place.

[Nerf to Mining]

2 hours ago, Kinnikonnie said:

Lavaland stuff is completely unbalanced with the rest of the station items. In my opinion it is extremely overpowered that suddenly someone can even just pull out a katana and start hacking away if they are an antag or a target of an antag. I do not think its really fun and it also makes Gateway pointless as the items you can find in the Gateway are a joke compared to lavaland.

 

In addition resources seem to be really bi-polar. Either all the miners die (which has become rarer) and so there are no resources or what recently has happened with 8 or so people going miner and most of them knowing what they are doing is that resources become abundant and it has a negative affect on any antags anyway. The last times I have seen xenos or terrors at least 2 gygaxes or durands have been ready to crush them within minutes.  The fact that there is a mech every round now almost guaranteed for security really tilts the favor against antags and I barely seen multiple-objective vampire/clings succeed at their objectives if they get found out.

A lot of that comes down to when the xenos or terrors pop, because at the 2h mark the crew is usually on high alert from whatever threats are already around, but I do agree with the sentiment that the focus on fighting in lavaland makes resource availability on the station extremely binary. Either the station is absolutely loaded, or absolutely dry. From what I understand, the original reason why mining became the way it is was because miners felt like the job was too boring, but I don't think that treating mining like it's an entirely separate experience only tangentially related to the rest of the station is the way to fix this, because the effect mining has on the station as a whole is not a very positive one. The on-off nature resource gathering and the tendency for miners to bring equipment on the station that trivializes security and antags both doesn't really help the SS13 experience in my opinion.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, mining also cheapens the Mechanic by basically being a better version of it when it comes to acquiring exotic gear for the station. Space exploration is somewhat random, very time consuming, and doesn't yield power nearly as high as a miner can get while all being limited to basically just one person getting geared up, rather than an entire department.

[Nerf to Mining]

45 minutes ago, McRamon said:

Well, we have specific rules that restrict something like this. If you see someone nonsec validhunting, you should report them to admins. And ofc there are certain valid antags (wizard, nukies, blob, demons) which are perfectly valid to be hunted by anyone, and i dont see any problems for miners to use gear from lavaland to do it effectively. Not like killing megafauna is easy enough for miners to storm maintenance in full gear 10 minutes into the round.

Also restricting antags from using lavaland loot is also a bad descision. All the fun around lavaland is to bring loot to station. Also often miners share gear with sec or command.

Yeah, certain antags are valid, but is it really okay for miners to be prowling maints actively looking for them? I've seen a ton of rounds where miners wandering around maints with high-end gear just instantly nuke a random valid antag because there's really no way you can plan for someone in drake armor with a meathook inspecting every square inch of the station for something they're legally allowed to kill, and if you question them on it they'll just say they were wandering around the station like anyone else does. It's not like I can prove the miners weren't just coincidentally there less than 2 minutes after this xeno or that blob pops.

 

41 minutes ago, AzuleUtama said:

Well for a start they shouldn't be patrolling maintenance or the station in general armed with lavaland loot in the hopes they may "stumble" into an antagonist doing something and "defend" the person they're kidnapping/murdering. Rule 8 states that only security should be actively hunting antagonists barring extremely powerful ones such as wizards and nuke ops.

Implementing z-level checks isn't a great solution to the issue of miners running around the station with lavaland gear either. Outside of it being snowflakey in terms of which items we would need to blacklist from station use as well as not making a lot of sense for some of the items being unusable, it would also make miner antagonists unable to use any of the gear they actively risked an early death trying to get.

IMO, if the use of lavaland loot on the station is causing problems with most rounds it would be better to look at reducing the amount of items actually on lavaland to start with and/or updating space law to prohibit the carrying or use of certain lavaland items while on the station.

Well, honestly, I'd love to see lavaland loot reduced, but I figured I'd get burned at the stake for even suggesting it, so I tried for what I hoped was a more moderate solution.

[Nerf to Mining]

Now, I understand that mining is all about fighting megafauna and not about acquiring resources for the station, but it's getting tiresome for miners to get geared up and then start patrolling maints for antags as drakes and maniacs with meathooks. It isn't their job to be security, but there are no restrictions enforced on where they can take their weapons, meaning that they essentially become a security force that answers to nobody, and I've yet to see security ever enforce restrictions on miner weaponry. So, to cut down on the miner lynch mobs roaming maint looking for people to kill, I propose that like the gateway energy gun, mining weaponry doesn't function on the station. Honestly I don't know how much coding it would take, perhaps just a z-level check as a safety switch for the stuff, but having them come onto the station geared up like gamma and start hunting for antags without even having probable cause is common and, in my opinion, unfair.

 

TLDR: Remove mining's ability to be an unopposed lynch mob by keeping their weapons from working on station.

[Drake arts! Drakes, art!]

That is a Syndicate Standard Issue Combat Wrench.

 

Thanks for the drawing of Dee!

[Officer Buzzsky]

On the derelict, there is no gun. There is a gun on the abandoned medical frigate, perhaps that's what you're thinking of, but the same things don't always spawn in space, though the derelict always does. To get a gun, you'd have to not only have the right bits in space there for you to find, but to actually be able to find them as the Z levels randomly take you wherever when you reach the map edge. You shouldn't have to jump through so many hoops just to fight a single security bot.

[Good Security is too rare, and here's why]

My one security experience, I ended up not knowing all of the mechanics and having people jump down my throat when I made my only, and first, legitimate arrest. I don't really have any desire to try again after that round, because if I want to play guns, I can wait for an antag round and have a lot less bile directed at me than at the people actually trying to protect the station. People love to cry shitcurity, but as it stands, there's not really much reason for /good/ security officers to take the role, because of how much flak, IC and OOC, they get.

[Console Printer]

What if there was a printer attachment for computer consoles, to print out any text on the console, so that doctors, scientists, anyone who needs to relay text information, can do so in a way that is both efficient, logical, and good for paperwork enthusiasts?