Circuit imprinter and autolathe changes to make engineering more viable and science less powerful

[Miraviel]

Edit: some updates are done in the comments section as I received feedback on Discord as well.

1. Introduction

My proposed changes are here. It has two tabs on the top.

This is a design document, putting it up here for debate. Even if you do not like the proposed changes, I expect everyone in this topic to contribute with a constructive criticism. If you just say "this won't work, because" I will likely disregard your opinion. If you say "this won't work, because x, but y might solve it", then we have a fruitful discussion and we can build on it.

This idea is not perfect, very few ideas are born perfect. I need input to make it better.

1.1 The Goal

• To make engineering more impactful and self-sustaining, not to overly rely on science for their early(!) work. Currently, engineering is unable to rebuild any department without first begging science/robotics to print them circuits, not to mention parts.
• To make science less of a "we can build our own station" department and more focused on "we can make advanced stuff nobody else can" (while blowing up our own chemistry over and over again). The aim is to make engineering responsible for rebuilding/expanding the station, without relying on science (at least for the first half) and reinforcing the notion that science exists to make wacky stuff.
• To clean up the autolathe's bloated list a bit.
• To make engineering once again an appealing job. We are an atmospherics-based game and yet engineering is one of the least popular departments.

1.2 The Non-Goal

• To make engineering the new powergamer department.
• To nerf science to the point it is no longer appealing for non-powergaming/antagonist players. This change will definitely hurt powergamers, but I do not want to appeal to that party.

2. The How-To: Circuit Imprinters

This is the main point of this change, to cull science's ability to completely rebuild the station and cutting out that damn middle-man - that is, the entire department of engineering. Currently, being an engineer sucks. Any scientist can do your job and do it with better parts. Here is an attempt to change that.

Again, my proposed changes are here. It has two tabs on the top.

2.1 The Robotics Circuit Imprinter

This one is the smallest, so starting with this. It retains the ability to print the absolute minimum they need, namely:

• Exosuit parts
• Their own machines, including an autolathe board
• Mech bay equipment
• Cyborg rechargers

This also helps new players to be less overwhelmed with all the stuff they can do. Instead, they can focus on learning the absolutely cursed robot maintenance.

2.2 The Science Circuit Imprinter

I am aware that this won't be popular (just like this entire design document) but here we go.

Science retains the ability to print:

• Any machines they have in science already (which is A LOT)
• Teleportation-related circuits
• Telecomms-related circuits
• AI-related circuits
• The gibber for antagman reasons

2.3 The Engineering Circuit Imprinter

The engineering imprinter's job is to be able to rebuild any areas of the station, with a few notable exceptions.

• EXCEPTION: Chemistry machines. We do not want engineering to powergame with these machines, thus they get no access to it. If they need to rebuild the entirety of chemistry, the tool storage should have spare circuits.
• EXCEPTION: Most of science's circuit imprinter's product list. We do not want engineering to become the new RND powergame central, thus they get no access to AI-related stuff and the like.
• EXCEPTION: Telecomms. The only "rebuild the station" part engineering will still need to rely on the tech storage/science.
• ADDITION: Some circuits, such as the APC/air alarm circuits would be moved to this machine from the autolathe.

One important factor is machine parts - matter bins, manipulators, and the rest. Engineering has to start with a low amount of machine parts (e.g. 10 matter bins, 10 manipulators, 5 capacitors, etc.), strictly tier ones. This starting amount should be able for engineering to rebuild a few areas during the most intense rounds (nukies) and to create one or two rooms (for projects and station goals), but engineering should become reliant on science after a while, again.

We don't want to make engineering completely self-sustaining either.

3. The How-To: Autolathes

Separate the autolathe into cargo/science and engineering subtypes to 1) avoid engineering always needing to build their own autolathe, thus getting access to non-departmental tools 2) reduce autolathe bloat 3) make science less able to build its own station.

Again, my proposed changes are here. It has two tabs on the top.

3.1 The Cargo-Science Autolathe

This one is mainly untouched apart from a few changes.

• Circuits are moved to the engineering circuit imprinter (APC module, fire alarm electronics, vendor circuit, etc.)
• Engineering-related items are moved to engineering autolathe (geiger counter, RPD, compressed matter cartridge).
• DISCUSS: Some contraband items shouldn't be locked behind contraband, since it just encourages people to roundstart hack their machines. This includes: destination tagger, hand labeler, conveyor belt parts, desk bell, spray can. None of these are malicious, they should be accessible from the get-go.
• DISCUSS: Some items are redundant or out of place, such as: industrial welding tool, mirror, rapid cable layer. These items should be just removed, unless they serve a function I am not aware of.
• DISCUSS: Some items should be made more rare artificially, namely: safe internals (very rarely used, tech storage should start with two and that's it) and the RCD - I propose this to be in a CE-locked supply crate, so cargo and science would still technically get access to a powergaming RCD should they need one, they would just need to make work for it. This would also allow the CE to order and gift an RCD to an engineer they trust with their work (or to their antag buddies).

3.2 The Engineering Autolathe

This would be a new addition. Its goal would be to provide engineering with printable refillers without giving them access to non-department specific tools, such as surgery tools.

You can see the list on the link above. It would be significantly weaker than the cargo/science autolathe to make the cargo autolathe dominant - not only the engineering lathe doesn't have most of the cargo one's products, but it would be also unable to print ammo. This is to ensure that engineering won't instantly become the new antaghub instead of science.

4. The How-To: Changed accesses

To ensure that science/robotics doesn't default to "just stealing an engineering imprinter/autolathe from the tech storage", their access to the tech storage would be revoked. This can be alleviated by allowing robotics to start with an autolathe circuit (or an entire machine), since that and insulated gloves are all they ever need from that room.

This would also end the ages-old "robotics stole the autolathe circuit from the tech storage, ree!!!" quarrel as well as roboticists bolting from robotics to the tech storage for them insulated gloves.

I don't think they need insuls, but if we all agree they need insuls, they should just start with two pairs in their lab.

5. Regarding concerns

• Drastic changes: I am aware that these changes are drastic, but I also believe we need drastic changes. Science is powergame paradise and an incredibly self-reliant department. It is able to generate infinite resources, infinite power, and build almost anything that is accessible on the station.
  On the other spectrum, engineering is insignificant to the point that the department only has a few regular players and the engineering events (shorted APCs, emagged airlocks, breached maintenance, etc.) are barely if ever responded to. Engineering cyborgs vastly outperform organic engineers (another issue in itself), nothing can be done under an hour unless you have a buddy in science/cargo who actually does what you ask from them, and the whole "magic of creation" dies when you realize you need to repeatedly tap the desk bell on the RND table for machine parts, only to realize the entire department is either already culted or 90% traitors.
• Nerfing antagonists: I can't shed a tear for scientist antagonists being nerfed, they already have a wide variety of tools they can work with. However, should this change nerf anyone outside of science/robotics, do let me know. Antagonists are one thing I am not well-versed in and I do not want to cripple them either with my changes.
• Overbuffing engineering: If the above-mentioned changes would give way to unforeseen powercreep by the engineering department, do let me know. I do not want them to become the new powergame hub. I want them to become a force to reckon with.

Since this is a major balance change, please keep this in mind. "But x is also overpowered, why should be y nerfed!" is a very bad argument that hurls us into a loop of never-changing features.

Try replacing it with "but x is also overpowered, let's deal with that as well".

Looking forward to your input!

Edited August 31, 2022 by Miraviel

[Miraviel]

Received an inquiry about the RND process up to level 5 - the levels can be tweaked so RND would be still able to hit level 5s without external help, it is not my goal to make that slower or more cumbersome.

[Gatchapod]

First and so far the only issue I see: I don't think missing circuit imprinters can be easily replaced? They can print their own subtype boards, sure, but that would require preemptive preparation. However, if the imprinter is destroyed and the board is gone, the entire station loses access to everything restricted to that imprinter.

Possible solutions:
1. Add spare boards of all types to the tech storage. Good because it gives antags a chance to acquire machines through illegal means. Bad because it'll be used by non-antags with tech storage access to powergame.
2. Add board crates of all types to cargo crates list. Good because it gives significantly more control over who accesses the boards. Bad because it might turn supply into the optimal antagonist department. Additionally, bad because cargo is now an even bigger target for major midround antags.

[NethIafin]

I think this is an awesome idea.

I don't feel this will solve engineering being boring, but it is a good step forward

I always thought that most important job of engineer is related to electricity and hole fixing, so Engineering fun is proportional to how hard it is to maintain station power and integrity.

Right now Paradise OOCly forbids most antags from making too many holes, and the asteroid event is quite rare.

[Miraviel]

14 minutes ago, Gatchapod said:

First and so far the only issue I see: I don't think missing circuit imprinters can be easily replaced? They can print their own subtype boards, sure, but that would require preemptive preparation. However, if the imprinter is destroyed and the board is gone, the entire station loses access to everything restricted to that imprinter.

Possible solutions:
1. Add spare boards of all types to the tech storage. Good because it gives antags a chance to acquire machines through illegal means. Bad because it'll be used by non-antags with tech storage access to powergame.
2. Add board crates of all types to cargo crates list. Good because it gives significantly more control over who accesses the boards. Bad because it might turn supply into the optimal antagonist department. Additionally, bad because cargo is now an even bigger target for major midround antags.

1. does seem like the ideal solution, but I am also afraid of engineers just building a sci imprinter with tech storage access or scientists building an engineer imprinter by breaking into tech storage. While it'd be a bwoinkable offence for powergaming reasons, I want to keep everything on a code-level to avoid giving staff more work.

2. could work, if we are worried about easy access, they could be ID-locked with their respective departments (engi access for the engi imprinter, sci for sci imprinter), so I'd settle with this.

 

[Sadhorizon]

32 minutes ago, Miraviel said:

but I am also afraid of engineers just building a sci imprinter with tech storage access or scientists building an engineer imprinter by breaking into tech storage.

Make sci imprinter work only with sci console, robo imprinter work only with robo console and eng imprinter with brand new, eng console. Both ID locked.
For regular lathes, it wouldnt really work that well, but access-locking the engineering one could be an option?

Edited August 31, 2022 by Sadhorizon
Forgot about robotics

[Miraviel]

Updates on this after some discussion:

• RCD and cartridges stay in both autolathes. This was a too drastic change from my part.
• Machine circuit (vendor) stays in both autolathes. Cargo is the one ordering restocking units, it'd be natural for them to also have the circuit, I don't want to make little projects cumbersome.
• Tech storage access is revoked for robotics but not the RD. I forgot about the RD and their need for access to secure tech storage.
• Extra APC circuit in EVA storage: For explorer projects, apparently people like to make their own nook in spess, I don't want explorers to constantly make a trip to engineering if this is really a common thing to do.
• Mirror is not going to be removed but moved out of contraband.
• Rapid cable layer is moved to engilathe.

[Miraviel]

7 minutes ago, Sadhorizon said:

Make sci imprinter work only with sci console, robo imprinter work only with robo console and eng imprinter with brand new, eng console. Both ID locked.
For regular lathes, it wouldnt really work that well, but access-locking the engineering one could be an option?

Almost forgot that console ID-locking is a thing, that is a great idea.

As for lathe, I'd keep them access-free - in case engineering is mega dead or incredibly incompetent, people might need to waltz in and print their own stuff. Not something I'd encourage, but it should remain a possibility... probably

[BottomQuark]

I'm gonna voice some of my concerns and my feedback so
1. RCD situation

Alright from POV of engineering main that does not play science at all:

There are 3 types of situation for engineers:
a) Nothing breaks or only small things break and so the crew fix it themselves so there is literally nothing to do (since 75% of the people have 20 years of engineering experience IC apparently) 
b) Some things break requiring engineering to do some repairs but doesn't take the whole round
c) Someone blows up 50% of the station so engineering has to work extremely efficiently to make it even able to access every department without EVA suits (work the whole shift on fixing stuff)

For a) limiting other people options so they actually need an engineer is really good fix as it deletes one of the factors that make some rounds boring. The general idea of this change fixes part of the issue so I'm for it!

For b) that's (at least for me) the desired position

For c) well... the RCD situation. Limiting RCD WILL make engineering less efficient. Is it good? Not sure. But I know that the difference between 10 minutes (RCD style) and 40 minutes (manual style) of fixing floor makes a big difference both for crew and engineering mental health. Considering this: 

3 hours ago, Miraviel said:

RCD and cartridges stay in both autolathes. This was a too drastic change from my part.

I am happy :^).

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2. The demand on metal

Let's consider now machines in engineering if that patch was introduced. The 'meta' in engineering might still be to bother science for better parts. I agree to allowing engineering only the most basic parts as this will make engineers depend on science for better parts. This is generally a good thing. But....
 

This introduces the problem with the material amount available for engineers. That being said, what would engineering start with? If they are capable of creating their own autolathe with RCD and RPD available for print, I would imagine some people would rush to the lathe and print themselves both RCD and RPD which would take a lot of materials. We both know people will NOT be reasonable if they can get what they want. People would waste materials if they were to get RCD/RPD. (Yes I realize there are RPDs in atmo but still).

This is a problem bcs if this change makes it so engineering is forced to raid EVA and camp ORM (whatever the name was) well.... This will just make engineering feel more eh... People would also start a meme of "EnGiNNeRs StEaLiNG aLL ThE MetAl AgAin". In other words the demand for metal would increase, due to people wanting RCDs.
 

What I would suggest is providing more metal and glass in tool storage or somewhere since it's not even enough on high-pop to give everyone a stack of metal and glass. (at least I'm pretty sure, please correct me if I'm wrong). This has to be balanced tho, we don't want engineering to become self-sustainable.

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3. Rapid Cable Layer

5 hours ago, Miraviel said:

DISCUSS: Some items are redundant or out of place, such as: industrial welding tool, mirror, rapid cable layer. These items should be just removed, unless they serve a function I am not aware of.

Rapid Cable Layer does have some use. It's really niche honestly... Partially due to RCL being in autolathe and not accessible at the round start. I saw people use it while making station goal (and I did so myself). I think people would use it more for wiring solar panels if it was accessible early. You can get stuff from science at 30 minutes into the round if it's not abandoned... So you can wire the solars immediately at the round start with normal wires (which takes some time) or wait 30 minutes for parts, then build autolathe, and then wire solars. It's just not accessible enough.

 

Honestly if we had the RCL in autolathe at round start more people would use it. I know I would use it. I think it should be left for now in engineering autolathe and if people don't use it, delete it then.

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4. Is it buff for engineering even?

5 hours ago, Miraviel said:

Overbuffing engineering: If the above-mentioned changes would give way to unforeseen powercreep by the engineering department, do let me know. I do not want them to become the new powergame hub. I want them to become a force to reckon with.

I am REALLY biased to say that buuuut...
I don't think we need to be afraid of overbuffing engineering with the changes as it is now (as of writing this comment). 
 

If you are 'efficient' then you would make autolathe anyway, so limiting the amount of stuff it can print is really more of a nerf than buff.
It actually brings closer together new and experienced players as now both have access to it easily (and we all know new engineers don't make lathe).
I love this change. (if the autoalthe will be available to build at round start that is)

 

The only buff is introducing “Engineering Circuit Imprinter”.. Looking at it, it does allow engineering to print a lot of boards on their own, which might be a problem.
But that being said I don't see an option here to even print matter bins/manipulators/etc. in any machine.
Which well... kinda makes the board useless? Since engineers could not even build their own machines without science help. I think it still is a great choice! Making departments dependent on each other encourages interactions. Might be just a little bit easier to set up some machines without anyone knowing what you're doing since you don't order a board from science but just parts....

 

THAT BEING SAID! If we push this change I do propose that engineering would start with autolathe and circuit imprinters already built and leave them some more BASIC parts in secure tool storage for the sake of emergency. Enough to be able to rebuild for example 1 or 2 SMESes.
Overall I don't think this is overbuffing engineering unless I miss something.
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5. TL;DL

Good change me like