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IPC upgrade system


Medster
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Howdy, I belive that IPC maybe more appealing if they where able to be upgraded in certain ways. I want to suggest this and try to work on this my self but wish for some pointers on my ideas.

 

What i was thinking on doing was attempting to retool a copy of the KA upgrade system towards IPCs and add new upgrade items that must be installed via IPC surgery. Current ideas are listed below.

-hardend chassis that will slow the IPC that gets it if it is installed but removes or lessens the 50% recived damage

-new micro-battery types (hyper, bluespace, and maybe slime core). 

-self repair(this one seems way too gamey to attempt to impliment, maybe use it as a form of revival implant for IPCs?)

-speed upgrade that drains double to triple the battery charge for every action but increases all actions(also seems a little gamey to use given the idea also attempts to add new batts and it could subvert the slow debuff on the armor upgrade)

-oil hatch that adds a tank to the IPC that can be filled with oil that increases the speed of it at the cost of using oil in the tank(possible work around for speed upgrade's general gamey aspects by adding a seprate meter for the IPC user to keep watch of)

 

This seems like a good enough attempt at a start for me to code, or a huge undertaking that may never get completed. Either way, it would be cool to see some form of this idea in the server if what im thinking of is too much for me.

after some reflection, this may be too much of a project for someone who doesn't know the code yet. There will be an attempt but it has a hogh likelyhood of failing on my part.

Edited by Medster
Realizing dificultys of project for a major newbie to the code and minor context edits
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Posted (edited)

If anything, a general consensus on how much if an undertaking this may be would be appreciated. Hoping that it is as simple as retooling a copy of the KA upgrade system to work with IPCs and not coding the whole thing to function like the KA system

Edited by Medster
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Yeah no, this seems like a balance nightmare.

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I don’t understand why any of those upgrades would be needed. They don’t need a speed buff and the cost of said speed buff is extra battery charge? Which can be countered with another upgrade, the battery upgrade? Seems like you just suggest buffs to IPCs with cost that the other buffs can just shut down which makes it really only buffs and no one wants to deal with that. More ions ions ions

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I don't really see the appeal of making one of the most mechanically diverse and different races even more different. I don't see how this would positively impact game balance or general enjoyment at all.

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The idea of upgrades for IPCs might sound good on paper. But there are multiple problems with it. They are right now just a race and they have to be balances with other races.

 

Races need balance. And yeah IPCs probably should be different from other races, but they REALLY already are.

But then let's take a look at what you propose:

1. Hardened chassis

On 3/29/2022 at 6:12 AM, Medster said:

hardend chassis that will slow the IPC that gets it if it is installed but removes or lessens the 50% recived damage

50% is a lot. If it was to be a thing, the percentage would need to be small like 10%. 50% is effectively double the health. And IPC can fix themselves really quick, this would make them literally never visit robotics again. Balancing this would be a nightmare first because you need to get the percentage of DMG reduction right, then bcs you need to balance the speed cost for this implant.

2. Batteries

On 3/29/2022 at 6:12 AM, Medster said:

new micro-battery types (hyper, bluespace, and maybe slime core). 

I find that a cool idea actually. Maybe not let them use slime core. But recharging as IPC is quick anyways, so not sure how useful it would be in the end. That one sounds like a cool idea to me. BUT... It sounds like a terrible idea if combined with the things i will comment further into the post. Giving them more power own its own is fine BCS that just makes them have to recharge less, but you also suggest giving them ability to spend the hunger to gain speed and to self repair which with combination with higher batter capacities would make IPCs stronger than the rest of the races.

3. Self repair

On 3/29/2022 at 6:12 AM, Medster said:

-self repair(this one seems way too gamey to attempt to impliment, maybe use it as a form of revival implant for IPCs?)

Looking at balance - Nian have sort of that. They can go into cocoon and heal. It takes A LOT of hunger to do so, and the heal is really small. IPCs right now can fix themselves quicker with a welder and cables than Nian using their heal ability. (and IPCs don't need to use hunger). This is terrible idea. Self heal and heal over time things are already extremely strong. Look as hard it is to get a nuke op down that is hit by this healing beam of theirs. If you can disengage antag/sec then heal, recharge hunger and come back it makes you really strong oponent. So this would have to be a really slow proces, and thus it would be faster to just fix yourself with a welder and wires, and if that's the case... Then what's the point?

4. Speed upgrade

On 3/29/2022 at 6:12 AM, Medster said:

speed upgrade that drains double to triple the battery charge for every action but increases all actions(also seems a little gamey to use given the idea also attempts to add new batts and it could subvert the slow debuff on the armor upgrade)

Speed is everything. this sounds ok at the beginning, but then think about balance. Being IPC becomes meta in engineering where almost every action with RCD is timed (except making floor). This upgrade would make patching breaches optimal for engineering and thus make it suboptimal to play anything but IPC in engineering. This also makes it easier to kidnap someone if you are in space and need to use RCD to make a breach, grab someone and leave.

5. Oil hatch

On 3/29/2022 at 6:12 AM, Medster said:

oil hatch that adds a tank to the IPC that can be filled with oil that increases the speed of it at the cost of using oil in the tank(possible work around for speed upgrade's general gamey aspects by adding a seprate meter for the IPC user to keep watch of)

Speed is everything. In combat the faster person can run away or catch up to someone running. The faster person dictates the pace of combat. Faster person is harder to hit. Cultists with speed robes are insanely hard to catch from what I know. This upgrade would be a bad game design. Every IPC would get one just to be able to get away from antage or to become uncatchable for 3 minutes. And if the oil would ever run out then they would just refill themselves.

 

Ultimately all of this is as AA said:

On 3/29/2022 at 9:15 AM, AffectedArc07 said:

Yeah no, this seems like a balance nightmare.

All of this gives IPCs some mechanical advantage and no disadvantage. Adding all of this also means giving IPCs versatility. And versatility is extremely powerful. That being said... I like the idea a little bit. But not the execution. What i would propose as an 'upgrade' for IPC that robotics could do is for example:

1. Megaphone upgrade

Allow IPC to speak loudly like using megaphone. Recharges 10-20 seconds and costs minimal amount of hunger. This would be annoying tho for the crew that would hear people abusing it.

2. Language Decoder

Allows IPC to understand but not talk using given language. (Why not talk? Some languages f.e. kidan language requires antennae to communicate which not every IPC has). This would be annoying to people that enjoy the fact that only a selected number of players can understand given language f.e. some slime people talking in their language might find it annoying that some random IPC understands them. And besides this upgrade would be quite useless otherwise...

 

 

Generally something that does not affect race balance and just gives them some gimmick. But the again: why not make these normal implant that everyone can use? And why would anyone code these things in the first place? I cannot really think of a single non-balance affecting upgrade that would not be annoying to someone.

 

Another problem is time and effort it would require. Every feature has to be coded, tested and reviewed. Doing thing A means that theres no time to do B.

 

TL;DR - IPCs don't need another buff. They are already extremely diverse. Could make these upgrades small (just gives IPCs a gimmick that do not affect balance). This would take some time anyway that could be spent developing other more important things like making other races more diverse from each other. So it is unlikely it would ever become a thing.

Idea is somehow fun but execution is bad. And IPCs don't need that big of s buff at this moment.

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IPCs were always meant to be hardmode, and an RP race at heart. Paradise IPCs accomplish this well enough as is, so much so that other servers considering IPCs often look towards Paradise, rather than baycode synths. They fit Paradise and lower RP servers well, as a race that allows a player to easily introduce themselves to a different style of roleplay. 

 

These buffs have an interesting concept, but would take away much of the purpose behind IPCs. I will never agree that IPCs are 'too powerful', anyone that's actually tried to play them for awhile can tell you that isn't the case. But they don't need to be all that powerful--it's enough that they're diverse and encourage roleplay. If you want to play a more powerful, buff synth, there are lawed chassis.

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On 3/29/2022 at 12:12 AM, Medster said:

-new micro-battery types (hyper, bluespace, and maybe slime core). 

This is the only one I could see being fine to add without really having an impact on balance.  Biological races already have an implant that reduces food consumption so letting IPCs charge less often seems like it'd be fine to me.  That being said, it doesn't seem like the nutrient implants are used that often because you basically only need to eat once or twice in the shift anyways and for an IPC you can basically quickly charge anywhere without even having to find food.  If this were added as a convenience thing similar to the nutrient implant though I personally wouldn't have any problem with it but it seems like it might be more effort than it's worth to add it.

The other ones are just too strong and I agree with what Spark said about IPCs being more focused around a different RP experience than being "powerful".  I think they accomplish feeling way different from biological races really well.

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I more or less have to agree with everything thats already been said as an IPC main myself, however I do think the first suggestion wouldn't be too bad if it were changed to only remove one of the ipcs 50% weaknesses (they take +50% from both brute and burn for the unfamiliar both the most common damage types) or a smaller number like was said 10% or so for both, and I only think this on the basis that other then ipc only two other races have two separate damage modifiers, diona who take 25% burn as opposed to 50% and 50% heat but also have constant slow regeneration, the other being the new boys on the block nians who take 50% extra toxin and electrical damage both being in my experience much less common compared to brute and burn.

 

Spoiler

Or just y'know adjust the default numbers down a bit instead of an upgrade, no I'm not mad that a single punch makes my hand come off and back hand me in the face for daring to play ipc.

 

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On 3/30/2022 at 6:00 AM, Spacemanspark said:

These buffs have an interesting concept, but would take away much of the purpose behind IPCs. I will never agree that IPCs are 'too powerful', anyone that's actually tried to play them for awhile can tell you that isn't the case. But they don't need to be all that powerful--it's enough that they're diverse and encourage roleplay. If you want to play a more powerful, buff synth, there are lawed chassis.

I'm going to disagree with Spark here; I think IPCs are genuinely powerful. I know that sounds bonkers considering a single laser gun blast can take off our leg, but being an IPC means:

- There are very few chemicals that are harmful to you, and you don't have to worry about being poisoned, or viruses. You're almost completely exempt from chem-memery.

- You don't have to breathe, you don't need to keep emergency O2 on you, and you don't have to worry about the station filling with plasma or N2. Even being able to continue speaking in an airless breach is useful.

- IPCs are *completely exempt* from the effects of radiation. As an antag you can make life hell for the rest of the station with irradiation and not be affected. In addition, radstorms give you a station with every airlock open and the ability to roam around freely.

- You don't need to eat, and borg chargers and APCs are (generally) everywhere.

- You can repair yourself with common household items. Like, think about what a big deal medicine is for organics, to the point where even wizards teleport to medical storage first. Different conditions require different chems, defibrillation might be necessary, or a sleeper, or you have to wait to get cloned, or maybe you're crashing from a meth overdose. As long as we have a welder and a length of cable (and aren't in crit) we're gucci.

- You can *continue to see and speak when debrained*.

Yes, we're a little bit more delicate, but look: I main miner, and the vast majority of the time I'm the only miner to survive most rounds to the end. I've also seen robust IPC wizards. 

As an IPC main I've dreamt of an IPC augmentation system of some kind. The things I've wanted the most are the ability to reinforce your chassis to become space proof, and a camera upgrade in order to see in the dark. This seems like the kinds of stuff IPCs should have. But it's a very short trek from the idea of augments to making IPCs unstoppable.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:00 AM, Spacemanspark said:

IPCs were always meant to be hardmode, and an RP race at heart. Paradise IPCs accomplish this well enough as is, so much so that other servers considering IPCs often look towards Paradise, rather than baycode synths. They fit Paradise and lower RP servers well, as a race that allows a player to easily introduce themselves to a different style of roleplay. 

I agree with this, though. IPCs make a wonderful RP race. They're practically designed to occupy command and magisterial roles. They don't feel pain, they have completely different experiences, origins, and behavior patterns, and from a lore point of view (inasmuch as that's important) they're a 50-year old civilization that, barring physical damage and deterioration, may be effectively immortal, and needs to grapple with that. It rules. IPC gang.

 

On 3/30/2022 at 10:54 AM, Rythen said:

for an IPC you can basically quickly charge anywhere without even having to find food

Not on Delta you can't >:( there's no APCs in the primary hallways.

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1 hour ago, Warriorstar said:

I'm going to disagree with Spark here; I think IPCs are genuinely powerful. I know that sounds bonkers considering a single laser gun blast can take off our leg, but being an IPC means:

- There are very few chemicals that are harmful to you, and you don't have to worry about being poisoned, or viruses. You're almost completely exempt from chem-memery.

- You don't have to breathe, you don't need to keep emergency O2 on you, and you don't have to worry about the station filling with plasma or N2. Even being able to continue speaking in an airless breach is useful.

- IPCs are *completely exempt* from the effects of radiation. As an antag you can make life hell for the rest of the station with irradiation and not be affected. In addition, radstorms give you a station with every airlock open and the ability to roam around freely.

- You don't need to eat, and borg chargers and APCs are (generally) everywhere.

- You can repair yourself with common household items. Like, think about what a big deal medicine is for organics, to the point where even wizards teleport to medical storage first. Different conditions require different chems, defibrillation might be necessary, or a sleeper, or you have to wait to get cloned, or maybe you're crashing from a meth overdose. As long as we have a welder and a length of cable (and aren't in crit) we're gucci.

- You can *continue to see and speak when debrained*.

1) There are also very few chemicals useful to you. You have no healing over time. Your access to adrenals and stun-resistance is highly limited. Viruses are almost always positive. You're still susceptible to any kind of fire-based chem or acid.

2) Nobreathe is almost functionally pointless. A topped up yellow tank does the same thing.

3) Situational functionality during a single event isn't terribly useful, it's merely convenient. Sources of radiation aren't common, and deliberately irradiating yourself to affect others is something that would be restricted to a hijack antagonist.

4) Chicken noodle soup exists.

5) Food heals organics. Medbots heal organics. Clicking on yourself with a widely available automender for .2 seconds heals organics. This ties back into #1.

6) You also can't ghost and maintain role eligibility. Your speaker can also be turned off, which makes this moot.

The only meaningful buff that IPCs have over other species is that they can't get IB, but this is more or less moot because they tend not to survive encounters that would typically cause them to begin with.

As another point, you can't be cloned and *must* receive surgery to be revived. This makes death a much larger hassle, as it's dependent on someone having knowledge + tools + time, rather than three clicks on a cloner (or one, with it upgraded).

Edited by Shadeykins
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I'll bite, this is always a genuinely interesting debate to partake in :p

As a precursor, I would like to say that I don't view IPCs as useless, completely flimsy or helpless. They have some good bonuses. I just don't agree that they're super powerful like some would want others to believe. 

 

1 hour ago, Warriorstar said:

There are very few chemicals that are harmful to you, and you don't have to worry about being poisoned, or viruses. You're almost completely exempt from chem-memery

The chemicals that do have the ability to harm you, however, are the ones that are most devastating. Fire related chems, teslium, the sonic sound shit, chem grenades filled with the IPC 'buff' chems which can decimate if overdosed, etc. Couple that most of these aside from the last two incur brute or burn. 

1 hour ago, Warriorstar said:

You don't have to breathe, you don't need to keep emergency O2 on you, and you don't have to worry about the station filling with plasma or N2. Even being able to continue speaking in an airless breach is useful. 

IPCs are *completely exempt* from the effects of radiation. As an antag you can make life hell for the rest of the station with irradiation and not be affected. In addition, radstorms give you a station with every airlock open and the ability to roam around freely. 

Good points, nothing to add. These are the more powerful buffs of IPCs, and largely well balanced against their downsides. 

Edit: Well, okay, Shadey is definitely correct about radiation. I will say that being able to withstand a space breach for a longer time than a human can is still a fairly decent buff, especially coupled with tools. That said, it IS entirely pointless if you're also being attacked and exposed to space for longer than 30 seconds. You can't mend during a fight and you'll succumb to a combination of battle wounds and pressure damage quickly. In a vacuum when you're alone, however, there are merits to the ability. 

1 hour ago, Warriorstar said:

You don't need to eat, and borg chargers and APCs are (generally) everywhere

Power outages disable this. As for human hunger, you can often just fill a box with cheesy honkers and usually be fine throughout a round. Hunger seldom is an issue, more an annoyance, much as the entire SS13 community has tried to change this over the years. If a chef isn't around, players everywhere would drop dead without some sort of middle ground, and unfortunately that middle ground is capable of filling in entirely with very little issues. 

1 hour ago, Warriorstar said:

You can repair yourself with common household items. Like, think about what a big deal medicine is for organics, to the point where even wizards teleport to medical storage first. Different conditions require different chems, defibrillation might be necessary, or a sleeper, or you have to wait to get cloned, or maybe you're crashing from a meth overdose. As long as we have a welder and a length of cable (and aren't in crit) we're gucci

True, but being that it only takes a few hits to crit in most circumstances, and you generally have to sit still for various periods of time to heal... if someone wants you dead, you're dead very quickly. It only takes a few hits to incur a slowdown effect even without being put into crit. Limbs easily fly apart, which renders those repair tools useless in such a circumstance. EMPs, although no longer instant death, are still typically a round ender if someone is using it as a weapon against you. It isn't difficult to get one's hand on EMPs, either. 

Shadey's post also makes some good points regarding human healing. 

1 hour ago, Warriorstar said:

You can *continue to see and speak when debrained

Unless it was changed in my absence, IPC posibrains have their speakers set to 'off' by default. It's ultimately meaningless that they could technically speak if debrained since the speaker would have to be toggled back on. As Paradise also lacks any CMD related rules for humans, a recovered and revived human brain is perhaps only a few minutes of extra time away from revealing their killer in most circumstances compared to a recovered positronic. That's providing the brain is recovered in the first place, of course. The surgical procedure to remove a positronic is also much simpler than a human debraining procedure, being that it only requires engineering tools and a simple table.

1 hour ago, Warriorstar said:

I main miner, and the vast majority of the time I'm the only miner to survive most rounds to the end. I've also seen robust IPC wizards

Do you hunt megafauna like the other miners? Or do you just mine? What parts of an IPCs ability enable you to perform better than a human counterpart? What do you differ in playstyle from other human miners? I've played IPC miner, IPC blueshield and IPC security. Yes, you can still be efficient at those roles--but it takes considerable more effort, time and skill than an organic counterpart. As it should, too. Keep in mind that me and you also have considerable experience--the majority of IPC users do not share our playtime.

As for wizards, I don't doubt it. Wizards have a lot of mobility options, which is something an IPC player can make fantastic use of. Their buffs and downsides don't mean much if they don't get hit in the first place. 

 

This all said, the buffs IPCs do get which have meaning are still quite potent. Oxygen and rad immunity are quite useful. Viral immunity is useful. Welding damage immunity is useful. Adding further buffs to IPCs, even in the form of late game upgrades, would likely begin to encroach on an actual balance issue. As they are now, they are simple enough to dispatch by typical means, which encourages IPCs players to alter their playstyles and approach to most given situations. This, even indirectly, influences roleplay. It makes things feel more dynamic, rather than the same static encounters round after round. Taking that away would be a considerable mistake--especially to give them something so powerful as a speed buff. Mob speed is one of the most powerful tools in this game. If you can outrun any threat, you can run into that threat, cause serious damage and run away again before the other side can even react. 

 

Also hi shadey

Edited by Spacemanspark
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15 hours ago, Warriorstar said:

IPCs are *completely exempt* from the effects of radiation. As an antag you can make life hell for the rest of the station with irradiation and not be affected. In addition, radstorms give you a station with every airlock open and the ability to roam around freely.

I'm going to nitpick and point out that is not how ionizing radiation works. It would 100% effect anything that's electronic including IPCs. I'd go as far as to say radiation should act as a flash to maint drones, cyborgs, and IPCs while the radiation is above a certain threshold but speaking those words aloud just agro'd every silicon and IPC main.

Just look up Radiation and how it effects electronics.

Edited by Vallidian
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Alright everyone time to metagrudge vallidian and burn down his minecraft house 

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Tbh i would love if rads gave ipcs hallucination. Would be cool. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

That does seem cool, maybe the new batts and rad shielding instead of all the things i suggested?

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you can already get a battery upgrade, nutriment implant, should refill you as well. (im not 100% sure but AFAIK it works on IPCs too).

IPCs already are radiation immune, so Im not sure what rad shielding are you proposing?

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IPCs can already easily recharge from any nearby APC, there's very little need to have upgraded cells for them. Perhaps the ability to drain power from power cells could be implemented, but even that is a bit iffy. 

 

Truth be told I don't actually have any issue with IPCs being impacted by radiation... although, I'd recommend not going the route of 'eternal flash effect'. I doubt player's eyes would thank you for that, especially if you're a gremlin like me that keeps the light off while playing. 

Perhaps it could be as simple as incurring burn damage over time to exposure, as well as internal component damage. You could potentially do this for lawed synths too, not merely IPCs. 

A shield that helps against radiation with the above in mind... ehhhh, maybe. Perhaps some form of plating that could be installed which would reduce oncoming damage, perhaps even nullify component damage. I'd imagine it would be expensive to manufacture, as well--perhaps even requiring multiple parts to be installed internally, one for each limb (and a general upgrade for lawed chassis). 

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