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Brig Attendant - A Replacement for Brig Physician


MattTheFicus
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What This Would Do?

The overarching idea with this would be to shift the current Brig Physician "slot" from a Medical-focused role to a "Brig Assistant" role. This would shift them from being a Brig Physician (a doctor) to a Correctional/Detention Officer (formerly Brig Orderly).

To pull directly from Wikipedia, orderlies are utilized in various hospital departments. Their duties can range in scope depending on the area of the health care facility they are employed. For that reason, duties can range from assisting in the physical restraint of combative patients, assisting physicians with the application of casts, transporting patients, shaving patients and providing other similar routine personal care to setting up specialized hospital equipment such as bed traction arrays.

In this case, the ideals of a "hospital" would be swapped for the ideals of a Brig.

What Would Their Duties Be?

  • Dealing with minor injuries of Prisoners (scrapes, bleeding, etc.)
  • Preparing and facilitating the transfer of seriously wounded Prisoners to Medbay.
  • Ensuring that the Brig/Cells remain clean and in working condition.
  • Assisting the Warden with their duties of Prisoner Management.
  • Ensuring Prisoners with special needs have said needs met (vampires get monkey cubes, Solitary Prisoners are still fed, etc).
  • Assist the Warden with Brig Control (sometimes Officers are bogged down in work, giving the Warden a helping hand in the Brig would be wonderful QoL)
  • Assisting the Warden with properly getting IDs Terminated, DNR'ing executionees, and keeping processing/evidence clean and ordered.
  • Overseeing and facilitating IAA/Prisoner interactions.
  • Aka, doing anything for the warden that they need that they’re too busy to do, or involves leaving the brig

Why Bother? Why Replace the Brig Doc?

Honestly, a lot of this work could just be done by the Brig Doc. The issue I personally see (and one that was brought up in the Community Meeting and one that gets brought up every time anyone utters the words "BrigBay") is that Security has been given an insanely safe place to get treated or implanted without the paranoia of a Doctor messing with you/robbing you/etc. SS13 thrives off of chaos and paranoia. Removing a possible vector of Antagonist/Security interaction is something I personally dislike a LOT. A Doctor, if they're slick enough, should be able to take advantage of their "trust" as a Doctor to do antagonistic behavior: hell, its part of the reason they're a Traitor to begin with. The counterpoint I see to this would be "well I don't want to get round-ended by some Doc just decapping me". To that, I say the same thing I say to any Officer who's scared of getting antag'd: get a partner and stop doing stuff by yourself. It is 10000% your fault if you die or get antag'd while on your own.

Another issue with Brig Doc at the moment is they become an implant factory. They either remove every implant that comes in from a Traitor therefore removing any possibility of an antagonist sneaking in a storage implant or the like OR the give Security a free and safe place to get Combat Implants. If you want Combat Implants, go to Robotics (its not like they're doing anything better). If you want surgery done on an inmate, bring them to Medbay.

Another reason I personally would want an Correctional/Detention Officer for is to make life for the Warden much easier. With a population getting up to 150 on bad days, an extra body in the Brig to deal with and RP with Prisoners would be a massive helping hand. This would free up Officers to continue patrols while the Warden and Correctional/Detention Officer hold down the fort that is the Brig. This does NOT mean that the Correctional/Detention Officerwould be able to arrest Antagonists. They would be the same as the Warden: their "power" ends at the doors to the Brig barring VERY extenuating circumstance.

What Gear Would They Have?

Currently my thoughts would be to replace the Brig Doc's office with an Correctional/Detention Officer' Office. This would include:

  • A small desk setup, much like the Warden's
  • An Implant Monitoring Console
  • A locker with Detention Officer's Supplies (see further down)
  • A MediVend (the small one with bandages and ointment)
  • One (1) Toolbox
  • One (1) Bar of Soap/Cleaner Spray
  • One (1) Medical Gurney (the roller-bed-thingies)

Correctional/Detention Officer Supplies

  • One (1) Telescopic Baton (maybe a wooden baton? wood fit the theme)
  • One (1) Detention Officer's Jacket (reskin/repurpose the BrigDoc one?)
  • One (1) SecGasmask (for teargas in Perma if needed)
  • One (1) spare headset
  • One (1) SecHUD Sunglasses (the IAA variant, to prevent setting status)
  • One (1) flash
  • One (1) SecLight
  • One (1) Pepper Spray

Standard Operating Procedure (WIP)

GREEN

  1. The Detention Officer may not perform arrests or searches outside of the Brig unless given specific permission by the Head of Security or Warden. Exception is made if there are no active Officers or Warden;
  2. The Detention Officer may assist the Warden in their duties regarding prisoner management, movement, and care. This extends to Temporary Prisoners, Permanent Prisoners, Prisoners on the Work Camp, Solitary Prisoners, and inmates on Death Row
  3. The Detention Officer is permitted to carry a flash, their baton, and a can of pepper spray;
  4. The Detention Officer must maintain the cleanliness, order, and basic functions of the Brig, Processing, and Evidence. If major repairs are needed, Engineering may be contacted and escorted around the Brig for repairs;
  5. The Detention Officer may escort prisoners requiring surgery to Medbay personally, and make sure that they are returned to the Brig before being released. This must be authorised by the Warden.
  6. The Detention Officer must wait until someone is brigged and their timer starts before bringing them to the Medbay. Exception is made if the Head of Security or Warden permits it, or there immediate medical aid is required to prevent death;
  7. The Detention Officer may not stop a timer if a prisoner is being treated. The timer is to continue while they are treated. If the timer runs out during medical treatment, the prisoner is to be released after treatment;
  8. The Detention Officer is not obliged to treat any injuries prisoners sustain from self-harm. If they die from self-inflicted injuries, they are to be placed in a body bag labelled with their name and "suicide", and delivered to medical for storage in the morgue.

BLUE

  1. All Guidelines carry over from Code Green;
  2. Additional equipment may be provided by the Warden for self-defence.

RED

  1. All guidelines carry over from Code Green;
  2. All guidelines carry over from Code Blue.
Edited by MattTheFicus
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I mean, I personally enjoy the Brig Phys role, but I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few who play it as intended instead of using it to make a fully functional medbay to be a Security Medical Doctor. I'm also pretty sure that it would be easier to adjust rather than change the "culture/meta" that BP has become.

I would still like to see them have the basic medical supplies, like each flavour of FA kit, though.

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7 minutes ago, LightFire53 said:

I'm also pretty sure that it would be easier to adjust rather than change the "culture/meta" that BP has become.

Removing the "veneer" of being a Doctor should help curb this a bit in my opinion.

7 minutes ago, LightFire53 said:

I would still like to see them have the basic medical supplies, like each flavour of FA kit, though.

Added a Tox and Oxy Kit to the list!

Edited by MattTheFicus
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Please.
My neighbors complain when I groan at the cloning tubes in the brig.

Really, it sounds like a good idea. Part of BP's problem is that very often they have nothing else to do but become security's personal surgeon. Giving the role actual duties outside of dealing with self-harming clowns and security going full unga (there are rounds where neither happens) sounds like a good way to make them less inclined to become one-man-medbay.

I'll add that, personally, I love the thrill of being operated on by some unknown MD. Will they implant me with a hemostat? Will I wake up in a monkey body? Will I become a mindslaved officer? Will I wake up at all? A pity I almost never get any implants to play this game.

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I've already spoken about this in length elsewhere, and I'm sure most of you involved in this know my opinions as a Brig Physician main, so I'll keep this succinct. The issue is that people either A: Build Medbay 2.0 in Security complete with cloning and cryo, or B: Treat the role as a security officer with medical access, rather than a medic with security access. This addresses the first one, which I also feel could be addressed by SOP changes and OOC intervention when people are abusing the role. However, it leans into the problem with the second one, rather than tries to distance itself. I think that's moving in the wrong direction. This just basically makes you a sec officer instead of trying to differentiate the role as a care provider and an advocate for prisoners, which is the best thing that Brig Physician offered. 

It also basically entirely removes the medical aspect, which as a medical player is obviously really frustrating to me. I guess I would rather see this than the entire concept removed wholesale, but I don't think I would play it.

42 minutes ago, Gatchapod said:

Giving the role actual duties outside of dealing with self-harming clowns and security going full unga (there are rounds where neither happens) sounds like a good way to make them less inclined to become one-man-medbay.

I consistently do: Janitorial work, Repairs, Renovations and Repainting alongside RP and care providing in the brig, and I'm *still* left with a massive amount of free time. Removing the medical care portion of the job will give the role even less to do.

And with our medical system, you're already a one-man medbay if you have a stocked medical kit. If you can stabilize someone, you can heal them to full health.

 

EDIT: I this it's prudent for me to add that I don't think this is a bad role. I actually quite like the concept. I just wouldn't want to see Brig Physician get replaced by this. 

Edited by Sweaterkittens
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9 minutes ago, Sweaterkittens said:

This addresses the first one, which I also feel could be addressed by SOP changes and OOC intervention when people are abusing the role.

SoP changes do very little. See: Wormhole Generators, Mech Creation, Chemical SoP (yes the new ones, ignored a LOT). If a role requires constant OOC intervention, its an issue with the role's fundamentals.

9 minutes ago, Sweaterkittens said:

This just basically makes you a sec officer instead of trying to differentiate the role as a care provider and an advocate for prisoners, which is the best thing that Brig Physician offered. 

I added SoP. You have no arrest powers and can only restrain Prisoners in the Brig. You still provide basic care to Prisoners and ensure they are taken to Medbay if need-be. IAAs are the Prisoner's advocates. Incompetent IAAs dont mean this isnt true. If a competent IAA wants to advocate with a prisoner and Security ignores them I promise you that if they fax/deal with it properly, CC will smite them from the sky via fax/demotions/announces/etc.

The best thing BrigDoc gives to the Brig is a nice RP role that has less stress than Warden. Mechanically, for Sec, the best thing they offered was implants (either removal or installing). Sure, it might be anecdotal, but its an opinion formed over 2+ years of playing ParaSecurity.

9 minutes ago, Sweaterkittens said:

I consistently do: Janitorial work, Repairs, Renovations and Repainting alongside RP and care providing in the brig, and I'm *still* left with a massive amount of free time. Removing the medical care portion of the job will give the role even less to do.

This will now be part of your duties. Running IDs to get terminated, making sure trackers are kept in stock, making sure IAAs and Engis are escorted about the Brig, etc etc. You've only lost the surgical portion of your job here.

 

9 minutes ago, Sweaterkittens said:

And with our medical system, you're already a one-man medbay if you have a stocked medical kit. If you can stabilize someone, you can heal them to full health.

Such is Medical, nothing can be done to fix it, aye. But its out of scope of this idea so its not something I'm going to worry about.

Edited by MattTheFicus
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I personally like Brig Doctor the way it is currently and don't feel that it has a negative on the round really.  It's not a job that is filled all of the time and the times where it's filled I don't see a lot of problems with it.

What IS intended?

26 minutes ago, LightFire53 said:

I mean, I personally enjoy the Brig Phys role, but I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few who play it as intended instead of using it to make a fully functional medbay to be a Security Medical Doctor. I'm also pretty sure that it would be easier to adjust rather than change the "culture/meta" that BP has become.

What does "as intended" mean here?  The brig doctor guide page itself says this:

Quote

Since you lack some required components, you may go ask around the station for supplies. If you ask nicely, Medbay is likely to lend you one of their spare defibrillators, anesthetic tanks, or even a NanoMed Plus vendor. The chemist may provide medicine, Cargo can provide crates of supplies, and Engineering can build you operation tables, a body scanner (useful for checking for toolset implants!), and other medical machinery. Use that grace period at the start of the shift to turn your small ward into a working Medbay!

To me it sounds like there's a mismatch between what some people think the role is intended to do and what the guide tells people they are intended to do.  If brig doctors aren't intended to upgrade their workstations with more tools then the guide should not suggest that they do so.  Having a guide that says "do X" but then having the thing that is "intended" being only a subset of X is just setting the brig doctor up for failure. 

However, granted, I also don't see these brig bay setups as being as much of a problem as is being described.  Part of the fun for me when I play brig doctor is gathering all the things I need and setting up my work area the way I want.  I like that the starting equipment is minimal but that you can work with other departments to get other things you might need.

I don't think just replacing brig doctor with orderly would in itself stop these upgrades and equipment acquisitions.  For it to do that I think there would also need to be SoP or server rules adjusted. Stopping these brig bay upgrades seems like a large part of the reason for this change so I think those SoP updates around preventing it would need to be included as part of the proposal.

 

Medbay Treatment Stuff

50 minutes ago, MattTheFicus said:

Removing a possible vector of Antagonist/Security interaction is something I personally dislike a LOT. A Doctor, if they're slick enough, should be able to take advantage of their "trust" as a Doctor to do antagonistic behavior: hell, its part of the reason they're a Traitor to begin with.

I feel like antags already have a lot of opportunities to take out security and in fact some antags do it so well that there are rules around ensuring they don't just kill security indiscriminately.  Medbay is also so exposed that I don't see it giving a ton of opportunities to antags anyways.  If antags have security officer as a target, waiting in medbay in the off chance they show up and are your patient also seems like a very unreliable strategy that I don't see many antags choosing to do.

The only type of antag that I see benefiting a ton from this extra interaction is something like a hijacker who is taking out security indiscriminately, but even then they are going to need something that is bringing security to medbay in the first place so that they can be taken out.

My main point here is that I don't feel like antags are missing out on much benefit even if security chooses to go to brig bay.  Most antags aren't just trying to take out security indiscriminately and if they are then they are likely a hijacker or being actively hunted and needing to defend themselves.  In the latter case they wouldn't be in medbay working as a doctor to take advantage anyways.

In addition, I also don't see the "always go to brig bay" happen that often when I'm in security but this is just anecdotal.  If medbay is closer then I often see officers just go there, if they are injured while in the brig (or closer to the brig) then they might go to brig bay.  However, given how a brig doc isn't guaranteed to even be there, you might end up going to medbay anyways.

 

Implant Stuff

55 minutes ago, MattTheFicus said:

Another issue with Brig Doc at the moment is they become an implant factory. They either remove every implant that comes in from a Traitor therefore removing any possibility of an antagonist sneaking in a storage implant or the like OR the give Security a free and safe place to get Combat Implants. If you want Combat Implants, go to Robotics (its not like they're doing anything better). If you want surgery done on an inmate, bring them to Medbay.

I really don't see Brig Doc act as an implant factory very often.  I actually can't think of a time in the last month where I've seen them hand out a ton of implants to sec and if this is being done without a good reason then it already falls under powergaming.  In my opinion, officers who want to load up on implants for no reason are going to do it whether or not a brig doctor is doing it.  I would prefer the solution for this be that the HoS or captain is required to authorize combat implants if the threat warrants it.  This same sort of thing is being proposed with regards to mechs in a robotics SoP update and I'd love to see the same sort of thing happen around combat implants.

With regards to implant checking, I feel that there are two categories of implant checking.  I don't feel that checking for things like toolset implants (which show up on scanners) to be much of an issue and I'm fine with brig doctors checking for these whenever security asks.  This check isn't invasive and there isn't a huge IC reason why anyone would want to NOT do it other than the OOC reason of giving an advantage to antags.

Surgical implant checks on the other hand are invasive though and should be more of a case by case basis but current security SoP gives them the ability to do it on any confirmed EoC.  I don't think making these types of checks less convenient to do is the best way to stop them from being done.  Allowing all EoCs to be implant checked but requiring them to be taken to medbay would have the effect of giving antags an additional opportunity to escape and I think escaping perma already happens frequently enough and adds a lot of chaos to rounds that I don't think an additional opportunity is necessarily a positive.  

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10 minutes ago, Rythen said:

If antags have security officer as a target, waiting in medbay in the off chance they show up and are your patient also seems like a very unreliable strategy that I don't see many antags choosing to do.

This is already a viable strategy as any antag for any target. If youre that worried of getting picked off, bring a partner (frankly this is the solution to about 90% of deaths as Security).

11 minutes ago, Rythen said:

Medbay is also so exposed that I don't see it giving a ton of opportunities to antags anyways.

Medbay is also filled with people ripe and willing to disarm your ass over and slap you till Officers arrive.

12 minutes ago, Rythen said:

Surgical implant checks on the other hand are invasive though and should be more of a case by case basis but current security SoP gives them the ability to do it on any confirmed EoC.  I don't think making these types of checks less convenient to do is the best way to stop them from being done.  Allowing all EoCs to be implant checked but requiring them to be taken to medbay would have the effect of giving antags an additional opportunity to escape and I think escaping perma already happens frequently enough and adds a lot of chaos to rounds that I don't think an additional opportunity is necessarily a positive.  

Escaping Perma rarely happens due to implants. Its usually one mega-chad veteran Antag with AA who walks in and fights the whole Sec team in an attempt to save their fellow baddies. If you have evidence they have an implant, go get them checked in Medbay. Otherwise, send em to the Brig.

An Orderly would also actually help prevent Perma Breakouts as there's another body to assist with guarding the Brig.

15 minutes ago, Rythen said:

I would prefer the solution for this be that the HoS or captain is required to authorize combat implants if the threat warrants it. 

This is already a thing. If you want implants, however, go to Robotics. Theyre bored enough as-is with nothing to do

16 minutes ago, Rythen said:

I don't think just replacing brig doctor with orderly would in itself stop these upgrades and equipment acquisitions.  For it to do that I think there would also need to be SoP or server rules adjusted. Stopping these brig bay upgrades seems like a large part of the reason for this change so I think those SoP updates around preventing it would need to be included as part of the proposal.

.SoP changes will not fix this issue. As said above, see: Wormhole Generators, Mech Creation, Chemical SoP (yes the new ones, ignored a LOT).

As said in Discord by @Sirryan2002: "Brig phys violated a major game design mechanic. Departments are split up based on their speciality. Going to those departments incurs a risk as well as some effort. By adding brig phys you can nullify security needing to go to medbay."

That's the overarching issue with BrigDoc. It breaks fundamental game design that we have nearly everywhere else on Station.

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I removed one of my previous posts because after thinking it thorough more I didn't agree with the arguments I was making.

My only remaining concern with replacing physician with orderly would be that I don't feel like they have enough security equipment to effectively do prisoner transport or management and I think this should be the central job to what they do by taking some load off the warden. 

I think they should have basic officer equipment and some very minimal first aid equipment.  If you think about it, the sec pod pilot was a fully fledged officer with a specific duty and a bit of extra equipment.  I think that's the sort of thing I'd want this to be, they'd have officer equipment but their duties would be centered around the brig rather than patrolling and it should likely be against their SoP to patrol using their equipment.

However if they are transporting a prisoner, for example, I think they should be allowed to use their equipment to try and subdue the person in the moment but if the guy escapes into maintenance or something then they should call for backup and let officers re-apprehend so they can return to their duties.

Given what I have in mind, my vision for them, I think, would be more suited to be called a Correctional Officer or something since an orderly still sounds medically focused to me.

Edited by Rythen
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  • MattTheFicus changed the title to Correctional/Detention Officer - A Replacement for Brig Physician

The one thing I worry about here is them "camping" perma just because they can. It is annoying enough when officers do it, but this role can sort of lend itself to doing so. Camping perma removes any chance for captured antags to try anything of note, something I personally feel is quite detrimental. (Perma should not be a bottomless pit you can throw antags in and guarantee redtext.)

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20 minutes ago, S34N said:

The one thing I worry about here is them "camping" perma just because they can.

Warden/BrigDoc can already theoretically do this and I don’t see it happen that much. On top of that, it IS Permanent Containment. It may be designed to be escapable, but you should have to be either sneaky as hell or have outside help. Both of these situations usually get either caught in highpop or end in a massive fuckoff firefight between some SuperAntag who’s bored and all of Security in a 100 tile distance from the Brig.

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In addition, camping perma would be extremely boring if you were just standing there watching it the whole time and I don't see people wanting to do that.  If they decided to camp it and be more active by roleplaying with prisoners then I think this actually wouldn't be an issue at all.

But this position is going to have more duties than just being a perma guard.  With having to transport prisoners to medbay (since there won't be a brig bay), helping with brig upkeep, and doing basic first aid, I don't see them having time to just stay at perma the whole time.  If they did, they'd likely be neglecting other duties.

Edited by Rythen
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Just some commentary on some of the proposed SOP for this role.

GREEN

The Correctional/Detention Officer may not, under any circumstance, arrest anyone;

  • Is the Correctional/Detention officer allowed to deal with unruly prisoners?
  • Is the Officer allowed to chase after prisoners still in the brig but that escaped processing/a cell? Does this account as an arrest if they stun and cuff

The Correctional/Detention Officer is permitted to carry a flash, their baton, and a can of pepperspray;

  • What kind of baton? This could easily be argued to be any baton. It should specify: stunbaton; police baton; telescopic baton?

The Correctional/Detention Officer must maintain the cleanliness, order, and basic functions of the Brig, Processing, and Evidence. If major repairs are needed, Engineering may be contacted and escorted around the Brig for repairs;

  • I'm worried that this clause will be abused. Orderly's probably should not do any maintenance work above basic janitorial work. You run the risk of this becoming a brig phys 2.0 where the orderly is now replacing the need for a Janitor or Engineer to ever come to the brig.
  • Furthermore, orderlies should be heavily discouraged from doing EVA's or anything responsibilities that are relegated to engineers.
  • I do like the second part of this clause and I think this should be emphasized more. The orderly should be responsible for ensuring the brig is repaired and the right people are contacted, not that the orderly should perform the repair work themselves. 

The Correctional/Detention Officer must escort all prisoners requiring surgery to Medbay personally, and make sure that they are returned to the Brig before being released;

  • is this all prisoners? What if a security officer is doing it? Does the orderly have to stick around and oversee the ongoing surgery?

The Correctional/Detention Officer may not stop a timer if a prisoner is brought into the Brig Medbay for treatment. The timer is to continue while they are treated. If the timer runs out during medical treatment, the prisoner is to be released;

  • Does this extend to prisoners receiving medical help out of brig medbay? 
  • If so, do they have to be returned to the brig before being released like stated in previous clauses?

BLUE

Additional equipment may be provided by the Warden for self-defence.

  • Is there a limit to the type of equipment? What if the orderly finds the need to use an auto rifle to perform their duties, is that still within the scope of their duties to carry a weapon like that?

Some further clauses/issues to consider:

  • What's preventing the orderly from turning themselves into a brig phys? Should their be restrictions put on them regarding performing surgery, handing out security/combat implants, and/or installing medical machines in the brig? Is this something we need to worry about?
  • What if the warden is dead and sec officers are too busy to handle the brig? Should the orderly assume the duties of the warden temporarily?
  • Who has authority over the orderly? Is it solely the HoS or is the warden their immediate superior?
Edited by Sirryan2002
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Regarding "camping" perma. I honestly do like to go visit the perma prisoners when I'm brig doc or warden but I do it literally just to visit them and hope to initiate some RP when things are slow. I won't just silently hang around for the sake of keeping an eye on them. Most of the time it's too busy. 

I definitely like the idea of this role being added and it essentially being to the warden what the warden is to the HOS. They could even be the designated person to become acting warden when the warden becomes acting HOS for the sake of maintaining structure.

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  • MattTheFicus changed the title to Brig Attendant - A Replacement for Brig Physician
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