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Vamp rework balance/feature suggestions.


Charliminator

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Hi hello,

the Vampire rework has been TMed for a while and I would like to hear your balance suggestions for it.

All criticism is welcome. If you have a issue/concern, suggestions on how you think it should be best fixed is also a great addition but not necessary. Please don't reeeee "OP", this is for constructive criticism for me to improve the rework.


Here is the current spread of what subclasses people have chosen. (very epic graph IK)
image.png.b6b8c587ee68869eac3947ae757f88ec.png

Edited by Charliminator
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I did sorta expect umbrae to be up there, but gargantua being so unpopular's honestly a bit of a surprise. Makes sense, though, since most people can't or don't want to pull unga off.

From what I've personally seen, vampires are really fun currently, and a marked improvement over the old vampire antag. Assuming the gargantua and hemomancer changes I wanted to see (blood swell chunky fingers and hemomancer AoE ability nerfs) are already in, I am rather happy with them.

Edited by Woje
what even
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I have gotten to play one round of vampire; I chose Gargantua as my specialty. This is purely from my experience as Gargantua as I have not personally seen anyone using it.
I will not be trying to appeal to a "general" Gargantua game and will only be explaining my thoughts on the specialty from one round of playing it. Please take this with many grains of salt.

Early game as Gargantua felt very good, up into the 400 blood range I constantly felt like I still had a challenge. Having to manage ability times to get in and out of fights without being gunned down was refreshing.

Mid to late game (400-full-power): While I like the large requirement for getting full power, the road to full power felt like I wasn't progressing much. I missed the upgrade to blood swell initially as there was no new icon for my tiny man brain to [happy wojak man] face to. Some sound icon or even slight icon change to blood swell when it is upgraded would have got my attention, but I don't think it'll be a common problem the more people get used to the specialties. Note, I do not think the blood swell upgrade should be changed, I did notice it had upgraded after I got into a minor gun fight and smashed an officer over the head with a crowbar until they were horizonal.
(Please note, missing the bold text was my fault, though I can see other people missing it as well if they are not paying attention to the chat)

During the 400-full power range of blood, Gargantua unlocks overwhelming force. Which does have its uses, but it felt underwhelming for the point of the game that this ability is gained. At the point I got to 600 blood, I had already gotten a couple of security IDs and the HoS ID. I had multiple opportunities to get more access, but HoS access is strong enough alone. I did not find myself using this ability once as you can't open bolted doors with it. Plus, hacking a door open with tools doesn't cost any blood- with the speed from blood rush, I did not have an issue with gaining distance.

Once I got to full-power, I was excited to try out the charge ability and was not disappointed, it is very fun and has a very good purpose in the Gargantua playstyle.
[GRUG STOMP!!!]

From my experience, Gargantua needs something more or different during the 400-full-power range; it did not feel like a whole lot was changing in terms of what I was doing or could do and it was getting "same-y".

Edited by Shmabu
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DISCLAIMER: There are my personal opinions based on what I witnessed while spectating or playing myself. I love the changes to Vampires as it adds more variation then previously. Alternatively I only really saw "ITS OP" issues with Hemo.

  1. Full power blood needs to go back down to 500, not 1000.

    My reasoning for this revert is after doing math based on full pop count (150 players), and how the gamemode determines the numbers of vampires. 

    vampire_amount = 1 + round(num_players() / 10)

    If there are 150 people at high pop, that's 15 vampires attempting to get 1000 total blood for full power. That's 5 crew members for each just to get to full power. That doesn't take into account upkeep of the ability. Based on those numbers. That's half of the crew needed just for them to get full power. It leads to far too much murdering just for the sake of getting full power.

    With lowpop of 50, that's 5 vampires needing to kill 25 to get full power alone.

    An alternative is changing the gamemode's equation to have less vampires per crewmember.

  2. Blood Bringers Rite should not be able to work through windows. On Kerberos I noticed a vampire on the bridge use it, and it attacked a person standing in the primary main hallway, through 2 windows, and a space tile. Doors I can understand, but not glass and definitely not space. I believe that vampire later stated in deadchat that the regen rate of the rite was a little too powerful but I will let that person come forth if they'd like.
    HK1pnLI.png

  3. Vampiric Claws needs to have their attack speed reduced slightly. It does decent damage and drains blood, but if they're glared you can get 16 hits in before the ability wears off which almost guarantees a kill.

  4. Blood Eruption should not ignore armor. Instantly stam crit people with hardsuits when it's an aoe is a bit powerful.

 

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@Vallidian

I have debated decreasing the amount of vampires. However I have held off for a couple of reasons.

1) not everyone joins roundstart.

2) not every vampire will reach full power

Blood bringers rite healing was nerfed massively vs burn damage as was it's damage/blood loss rate

As for the space/glass thing. I have literally no clue how to make it not do that. Henk said in coding chat i would have to make a jank LOS check which i doubt would be very performant.

I'm not sure vampire claws do need a nerf. In comparison to, armblade which can be used in conjunction with a taser or stunbaton. Claws can be countered with range.

 

Blood eruption no longer deals stamina damage.

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Via RNG I only had the pleasure of fighting them thus far, and its been a pleasant experience. Certainly more engaging than old vamp. Overall I feel its in a good place, and I end up happy I'm fighting one rather than dreading it like before.

I've noted some saying new vamp ends with less vamps perma'd/caught, instead ending in lethal fights, but I can say with confidence thats just cause of the Delta map, and the areas vamp can hide in early on, as well as response time across the map there. On Box its about the same as usual in my experience.

5 hours ago, Vallidian said:

If there are 150 people at high pop, that's 15 vampires attempting to get 1000 total blood for full power. That's 5 crew members for each just to get to full power. That doesn't take into account upkeep of the ability. Based on those numbers. That's half of the crew needed just for them to get full power. It leads to far too much murdering just for the sake of getting full power.

I've seen dchat bring this up as well, and while it makes sense mathematically, I'm not convinced its it has any effect for one main reason: Old Vamps continued to suck blood anyway, because kidnapping is fun and fighting sec is fun, and 500 blood disappeared in a heartbeat when you are in a fight vs 5 ERT with speedy legs from DNA vault. I've only noticed more death on Delta, but that's because it takes longer for sec to arrive which means more dead civis. On box, it felt as normal.

I feel Delta and the innate chaos that comes with it if maints are used to full effectiveness are skewing peoples views of how powerful/effective vamp is.

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6 hours ago, Vallidian said:

DISCLAIMER: There are my personal opinions based on what I witnessed while spectating or playing myself. I love the changes to Vampires as it adds more variation then previously. Alternatively I only really saw "ITS OP" issues with Hemo.

  1. Full power blood needs to go back down to 500, not 1000.

    My reasoning for this revert is after doing math based on full pop count (150 players), and how the gamemode determines the numbers of vampires. 

    vampire_amount = 1 + round(num_players() / 10)

    If there are 150 people at high pop, that's 15 vampires attempting to get 1000 total blood for full power. That's 5 crew members for each just to get to full power. That doesn't take into account upkeep of the ability. Based on those numbers. That's half of the crew needed just for them to get full power. It leads to far too much murdering just for the sake of getting full power.

    With lowpop of 50, that's 5 vampires needing to kill 25 to get full power alone.

    An alternative is changing the gamemode's equation to have less vampires per crewmember.

  2. Blood Bringers Rite should not be able to work through windows. On Kerberos I noticed a vampire on the bridge use it, and it attacked a person standing in the primary main hallway, through 2 windows, and a space tile. Doors I can understand, but not glass and definitely not space. I believe that vampire later stated in deadchat that the regen rate of the rite was a little too powerful but I will let that person come forth if they'd like.
    HK1pnLI.png

  3. Vampiric Claws needs to have their attack speed reduced slightly. It does decent damage and drains blood, but if they're glared you can get 16 hits in before the ability wears off which almost guarantees a kill.

  4. Blood Eruption should not ignore armor. Instantly stam crit people with hardsuits when it's an aoe is a bit powerful.

 

1. I don't think every vampire SHOULD reach full power. Full powered vampires on this rework are very powerful, and perhaps shouldn't even come up on every vampire round, let alone multiple of them.

2. Yeah that's weird. I think it's a limitation of code, though. Like how you can use laser pointers through walls with xray.

3. The claws mathematically are barely better than a welder DPS wise, an ability that costs blood should probably be worth actually using over a common tool.

4. Agreed. And I think that went through already, thankfully.

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I've only had the chance to try hemo and garg, one shift each really and here's a couple of my thoughts :

I think the general raise in need for blood is alright, especially seeing the powers that come with it, and you definitely do not need to kill all the people you feed of. I managed to get 800 units of blood in thirty minutes without killing anyone. My only problem with it is the possibility of spending upwards of an hour getting all that blood and possibly getting holy watered for 300u blood loss per syringe just before reaching full power and getting detroyed with that. Syringe guns have been problematic for a while but that's another discussion entirely - maybe diminishing the power of holy water (Or making it scale so that it's less and less effective until it's not at all at full power) could help, but I know some people would rather vampires were never even immune to it, so I don't know what the right path for that is.

I term of abilities, overall, I think all new vampires are much, MUCH more fun to play and fight than the previous iteration,  I just have a few criticism concerning the two that I've played :

Garg :

- I'll admit that overwhelming force is a bit lacking (Call it underwhelming force). Could maybe open bolted doors at a much higher blood cost ?  Like 20-30? Since Gargs don't have much jaunt power and are more about plain physical mobility, it could help with bolting AIs/borgs, or reach bunkered targets easier while still being fair due to the high cost/blood requirements.

- Grug smash needs to lock you into it. It's extremely tedious to make sure to stop before using it mid-fight, and very frustrating to cancel by mistake. Would be a major QOL.  It could use a little bit of a tell, too, and I remember you saying it was basically throwing yourself at a turf - so I think it could be neat to have the thrown spin animation while you're mid-air ! 

Hemo :

Haven't had the chance to try the full power ability so I won't be able to comment on that much.

- Blood eruption either needs a tell and delay, or it needs to be tuned down or converted to burn damage to avoid too much internal damage at the push of a button - but it might need both. It might get a bit better as people learn to avoid exposing themselves too much (and we haven't seen hemo vampires with synthflesh sprays/adv release grenades yet), but it only takes you stepping on blood once, one mistake, to take a ton of damage and the potential of ib/broken bones.  Sure, the price is steep, but it doesn't really matter if it pretty much guarantees you a victory 90% of times it's used - or if you're using it in spite just before dying to give internal damage to potentially literally ALL of security or something, which isn't really fun, and you generally run the risk of a lot of unwanted collateral damage, too.

Maybe it could be turned into an area denial kind of thing - It could still deal brute damage with the potential of IB/broken bones - but instead of dealing instantaneous damage, it could do damage over time (Or maybe damage when people move ?) as the blood on the floor turns jagged or something - This way even if it's used in a civilian populated area it's not gonna flat out crunch 10+ people, and it could still serve as a powerful damaging ability when fighting sec if they need to push you through blood. This'd require a major overhaul to the entire spell, though, so it might be a little too far fetched. 

I'll admit it is THE most satisfying spell to use in the game, though. Crunch.

- Blood claws seem pretty alright, the attack speed buff means it really can only be used at peak efficiency on downed targets, but downed targets are dead meat regardless, so it's actually pretty balanced in that aspect imho.



And - thank you for your hard work bringing us to a new era of vampire gaming !

 

Edited by Peak
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16 hours ago, Woje said:

1. I don't think every vampire SHOULD reach full power. Full powered vampires on this rework are very powerful, and perhaps shouldn't even come up on every vampire round, let alone multiple of them.

I don't think the issue/ question is if they should be getting to full power every round--it's safe to say that they shouldn't expect that. The issue is what's encouraged and what players may feel they're expected to do to get to that point. I'm fairly certain your average player will feel the need to get to max power, and most will go to any extent they can to do so. This isn't unreasonable to think someone would do, yet it's the effects that come from this mindset that may be problematic. 

 

I'm overall neutral to this, but felt I should point this out. 

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1 hour ago, Spacemanspark said:

The issue is what's encouraged and what players may feel they're expected to do to get to that point.

If that's the case then yeah, I misunderstood the point and I don't disagree. Though I think the difficulty of getting all this blood plus the upcoming removal of many instant stuns will temper the capability of your average player to go wild like that. 

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I've played umbrae and gargantuan so far. I feel like as stated before garg is quite movement impaired compared to umbrae, one could argue having good offensive balances it out. Buut so far I've seen is that if you don't somehow suck fifty people in the first 5 minutes and get full power, sec will get weapons and armor that make the Gargantuans offensive abilities pretty pointles. Where umbrae can just teleport away, gargantuan has to try to push through seccies and/or ERT.

 

Basically being mobile in endgame feels like much better choice than gargs unga skills.

Like when I was umbrae, I could just hide in walls and closets. But as garg I just got fucked over with implanted, riot armored sec armed to the teeth with thermals and immolators. Dunno if any of this rant really helps, but just putting it out there.

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High blood-requirement for Full Power means that Holy Items are VERY useful. Did some testing with @Vallidian last night after discussing some issues with Hemo's Blood Bringer's Rite (or w/e its called). One Red-Level Inquis ERT member with a Null Rod can absolutely dunk on a non-Full Powered Vampire fairly easy. Hell, I'd bet the Chaplain would be a decent threat with a Null Rod, though I'm unsure if we want to foster Battle Chaplains.

I would consider looking into Medbeam code to see if the Hemo's Rite can be prevented through windows, cause that IS kinda silly.

So far, my experience watching Vamps do Vamp things hasnt been too wild. Nothing seems majorly broken and the only time Vamps dunk on people with nearly zero counters is 1v1 (which honestly is a Security problem and NOT a Vampire problem).

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One thing to consider here is that these vampires were designed with holy water and such being used against them in mind. So there's definitely ways to stop them. I personally have not had the opportunity to fight them with these means though. 

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Looked at medibeam code, it would tank performance. can't do that.

So, what I have gathered from this thread so far is:
1) perhaps reduce the scaling on total vampires in a round
2) perhaps add a cap to the healing from hemo BBR/make the damage and blood drain drop off when a certain number of beams are produced.
3) blood eruption could scale in damage based on how bloody the pool of blood is under the target, a drip of blood could do 20 damage, a big puddle could do a massive chunk like 60 or 70.

I am hesitant on buffing gargantua. Forcing open bolted doors makes very little sense to me.

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Update: hemomancer was nerfed again

Blood bringers rite has a max targets of 10, prioritising the closest people

Blood spike has a cooldown of 200, double that of before. A range of 4, down from 7. And a damage of 50 instead of 60

 

 

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I have a feeling the range thing is gonna be enough. Since at this point you can just... shoot them dead.

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From my experience, Gargantua needs something more or different during the 400-full-power range; it did not feel like a whole lot was changing in terms of what I was doing or could do and it was getting "same-y".

From the discord I have my idea to rework the overwhelming force ability to make it more appealing to use!:

Overwhelming force can now open bolted doors (Still not welded doors)!, but there's a catch.

-Costs more blood to open a bolted door (10-15)?
-The vampire must stand in-front of the bolted door to open it for some time. (1-3 seconds)? -- ((I think two would be best, but that's just me.))
-When the door is busted open, it is BUSTED. -- When the door is opened by the vampire, the electronics are smashed apart. Much like how an emag affects a door, the electronics must be replaced. (This should not be taken as it fries the electronics like an emag does, it should be taken as smashing them with the overwhelming force).
 

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I say as a general acknowledgement ALL vampire types are significantly more fun and balanced to play as and against than previous oldvamps.

Alright, so I've said my complaints alot but now I'm going to post them officially. Overall vampire is SIGNIFICANTLY better than oldvamp in all regards except for a few minor things. Although I havent had the chance to play and fight against each personally, I can definitely give what experience I have with them individually. Now let the essay rants begin.

Gargantua: I can say I haven't been able to really play as OR against them, they seem by far the most unpopular, but from what I've heard and seen, they're significantly lacking and largely just, a bully shove you down type of antag, which is a nice theme and all however their one large weakness which happens far more often than we'd like to admit is anyone with the ability to bolt just being bolt happy and instantly ruining their reign. For being so terrifying they can pry open doors, and charge down people in an instant they should probably have a way to deal with a bolted door besides shadowstep and HOPING they go in the right direction. I've seen some people say to make it cost more and take longer to force open and break a bolted door which seems like a good choice considering it still wouldnt be as instant as hemomancer or umbraes get out of jail free cards. On the side of them being rather underwhelming to play as, I cant make an opinion because as I've said, I had no experience playing as OR against them.

Umbrae: I havent had a chance to play AS one, but after having seen them NUMEROUS times, I can safely say they are the equivalent of oldvampire in terms of gameplay with FAR less obnoxious stunning capability. Now, in terms of balance, I'd say they're fine at what they do, however in terms of hunting, they are not very fun to chase at all due to them having ZERO fighting capability besides what golden bolts they have looted and glare. To improve this, maybe give their trap an actual knockdown and or mute so it becomes somewhat usable, if an officer is in a chase and hit by one, all they have to do is simply wait the duration of the blind while removing the snare themselves and they are perfectly fine. The snare itself really doesnt work in any way other than buying the vampire a few seconds, which the blood could better be spent on just teleporting away. Also, to somewhat alleviate Umbrae only running, possibly give them back the ability to summon bats, while additionally nerfing their ability to teleport in the darkness accurately, this would give security more room to actually capture an umbrae and give them the ability to actually contest officers past glaring them. In my experience with umbrae it almost always ends with them dying to lethals at ANY power level or them playing the oldvamp game of running for two hours to the point where security wants to stop trying which needs to significantly be considered in umbrae balance. Simply put Umbrae is extremely uninteractive, and not fun to try to capture or kill when you're expected to do so.

Hemomancer: This, I've had some unpopular opinions about and I've begun to reconsider some of them them as well. I have played hemomancer once, to great success and felt that overall their ability to fight is well, overkill. Bloodclaws in tandem with glare allows you to instantly hardcrit even officers without them being able to say anything. While yes, a stun is usually a death my opinions on this, it is problematic in this way;
 A: The person who is glared is unable to speak before they are in hardcrit, even security officers.
 B: The weapon itself is not very loud.
 C: It makes the vampire stronger in the sense that is absorbs blood from the target.
 D: It is far FASTER than draining a person normally, albiet less efficient, however with the new CAP to blood it allows you to deal with an officer once, retrieve their stuff faster than a vampire of another type, move on with your objective or plans and then be able to retrieve more blood in the same manner again at a later time.

All of this in tandem with the glare silencing makes hemomancer seem like a big issue, which is slightly offset by its bloodcosts being rather high which would be the case except some of the vampire's OTHER abilities also are a tad bit loaded.

Claws: 30 blood cost - As described above; recommend a higher bloodcost to make it the less, 'go to and be stronger' ability to use

Tentacle: 10 blood cost - Makes the targets slowed momentarily in a 3x3, not a significant power, useful, not overly so, priced appropriately for what it does, possibly increase its price to make it additionally a disarm (where all they would have to do is pick up their weapon, no additional stun, slow, weaken, or knockdown)

Blood Eruption: 100 blood cost - Makes all bloodied tiles erupt and cause significant damage and stamina damage; Both are not needed, one OR the other will suffice, depending on how the veiw of hemomancers is expected to be, either keep the damage if they're expected to be murderous, or stamina if the murder seems overkill. The skill itself has a high cost which is fine for what it could do either way, it also isnt a guaranteed hit on people, it requires setup, or properly watching where your opponents are standing to make use of it, and regardless of whether you hit or not, it's a significant cost.

Bloodrites: Toggle 10 blood per second, minimum of five(ish?) seconds; This ability is to put it plainly overtuned as of the time I had played (which was two days after the testmerge and no balances had been made yet), It heals far too much, can connect to far too many people, and it doesnt really cost much blood for the amount it heals. It needs a healing reduction and or a target cap added to it, plain and simple. It can quite literally make a vampire unkillable as long as it is toggled if there are enough targets.

Blood pool: Forgot the blood cost for it but, it's short, fast, and has a decent cooldown, a properly balanced mobility skill all and all considering it still makes contact with walls and can only be used to go under doors, its useful, but not overly so to where it is used instantly.

While this rant is largely weight towards hemomancer, its because its the only type I have had personal experience playing as and my rant ONLY includes vampire abilites, not any additional things such as department goodies you may get for your department or anything you make post roundstart.

I say as a general acknowledgement ALL vampire types are significantly more fun and balanced to play as and against than previous oldvamps.

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So in my time observing as of late I've noticed that Umbrae has pretty much become the "meta" pick as its kit is loaded with mobility which in our current balance state is an order of magnitude better than just being good at fighting, in particular getting what is a free passive speed boost just for being in darkness, which is already a large advantage even without the rest of the Umbrae abilities is just a tad strong, I suggest making it an active ability rather than purely passive, split shadow cloak in two, let them keep the passive invis and give a new ability, shadow dash a toggleable ability that drains blood granting speed while the user is shrouded in darkness. Speed is a very powerful trait in this game and it being given as a free passive is probably tilting player favor towards it more than the other subclasses. Going fast should cost resources, it already does for every other method currently in the game, meth, adrenals, stamina damage, so why should this be any different?

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7 hours ago, Leanfrog said:

Going fast should cost resources, it already does for every other method currently in the game, meth, adrenals, stamina damage, so why should this be any different?

Its the same speed boost as nuka cola. Nuka cola has next to no downsides, any antag could do this with a grinder. Atleast this way its thematic and cool. Antag abilities have to be stronger than shit the crew can make, otherwise the abilities wont be used.

Cling speed legs cost next to nothing because it can be toggled on and off to avoid damage. I could make cloak of darkness deal damage to the user if they are in light areas. 

Also, the speed is likely one of the most fun parts of umbrae so I dont want to squash that.

Dark passage however needs toning down, I have spoken to denth about it I will get on it when I have time.

Edited by Charliminator
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update:
Dark passage CD is now 40 seconds, up from 15 (IDK WHY I MADE IT SO LOW)

Shadow snare breakout time is 5 seconds, up from 3.

Hopefully Umbrae will be less aggrivating to catch, and their other non "run away lol" options, like trapping then fighting will be more appealing. 

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5 hours ago, Charliminator said:

Its the same speed boost as nuka cola. Nuka cola has next to no downsides, any antag could do this with a grinder. Atleast this way its thematic and cool. Antag abilities have to be stronger than shit the crew can make, otherwise the abilities wont be used.

Cling speed legs cost next to nothing because it can be toggled on and off to avoid damage. I could make cloak of darkness deal damage to the user if they are in light areas. 

Also, the speed is likely one of the most fun parts of umbrae so I dont want to squash that.

Nuka cola is a resource that is consumed when you drink it, sure it has no downside but my point is that every other method of going faster in the game consumes a resource, nuka cola and meth you have to drink meaning you can run out of them if you didn't prepare enough, adrenals are a limited use implant, and cling legs if timed poorly can leave you depleted of stamina as a side note I do think it should cost more for what it is but clings don't have much going for them as is so I'm just gonna say leave it as is for now. Why should vampires, an already potent antag get it for free?

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19 minutes ago, Leanfrog said:

Nuka cola is a resource that is consumed when you drink it, sure it has no downside but my point is that every other method of going faster in the game consumes a resource, nuka cola and meth you have to drink meaning you can run out of them if you didn't prepare enough, adrenals are a limited use implant, and cling legs if timed poorly can leave you depleted of stamina as a side note I do think it should cost more for what it is but clings don't have much going for them as is so I'm just gonna say leave it as is for now. Why should vampires, an already potent antag get it for free?

adrenals, nuka cola, meth, cling legs, all don't get countered by a flashlight.

This ability doesn't work outside of maints until higher levels OR if the antag goes out of their way to sabotage lighting. And it doesn't work in combat with security because-- security has lights.

I don't think it is fair to say its "for free" because its situational.

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2 minutes ago, Charliminator said:

adrenals, nuka cola, meth, cling legs, all don't get countered by a flashlight.

This ability doesn't work outside of maints until higher levels OR if the antag goes out of their way to sabotage lighting. And it doesn't work in combat with security because-- security has lights.

I don't think it is fair to say its "for free" because its situational.

Sabotaging lights is actually quite easy considering you can just make a light switch and instantly turn off all the lights in an area for what is basically free on top of the incredibly limited number of janitors who actually bother to fix lights.

And a flashlight isn't exactly a counter to the speed as all it really takes is breaking LOS with the source of the light, being in view range of security for a prolonged duration is always a bad situation for an antagonist as it leaves them open to getting blasted, in particular breaking LOS is incredibly easy in maints where there's many corners and doors to close behind you blocking light from disabling your cloak speed.

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I've seen all 3 get called 'meta choices' by people who got beaten by them so I think they're probably pretty balanced against each other so that's cool.

Yeah umbrae were too mobile but you've already coded a fix for that, probably fine now. Hemomancer got whacked with like 50 nerfs I imagine they're fine too. Garg not using guns during blood swell is all it needed plus it's the most rarely picked of the three by a significant margin.

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