Replace Metastation with EclipseStation

[S34N]

Hi all, its time for another mapping discussion.

This one might get spicy since meta is close to many older players hearts. Please read this through before forming an opinion, these threads are useless if you come in with your mind already made up. If you still disagree after reading it, that's fair enough. But please do at least give it thought.

Metastation is poorly designed for para culture.

 

What I'm suggesting:

Replace metastation with a unique map that is distinct from the ones we currently have, EclipseStation. (Click that to view the webmap for it)

We don't increase the maintenance factor of keeping a new map up to date by replacing meta, and we get a map with a different playstyle.

Why have map rotation if we are just going to have 2 of the 3 maps be quite similar in design, with one being worse?

 

Why I'm suggesting this:

Right, here is my case against metastation.

Primary complaint: Metas maintenance SUCKS for Paradise. Like, it's terrible. Lets see some examples:

You are an antag in engineering maints, and sec are approaching, so you choose to run. What are your options? (Red circle marks start point)

If you run north, you are faced with a super long 1x wide corridor, meaning you are almost guaranteed to be caught by any player with more than 3 braincells.

But Sean, just run south?!

Lets look at the south then:

Uh-oh! It's the same issue, there are no alternate routes, there are no easy alcoves to duck into, there is just a long corridor of pain.

 

If you look at the meta map, here. What do you see? ALL the maints are like this, every single one is a long corridor with no alternate routes or gaps to duck into.

 

Why is this bad?

Well, this might work on TG, with faster movement speed, stamina only combat, and crawling.

But on paradise? Expect a tazer or a few disabler shells up your ass and game over.

Antags will be forced to go loud in the hallways, or just kill sec instead of escape. Meta is not designed with para in mind, at all.

Again, look at the maints south of dorms. This is terrible map design.

Delta and box do everything meta wants to do, and they do it far better. This is not hyperbole, this is plainly obvious to anyone who's done map work before.

 

Okay, but why EclipseStation?

Just to make this clear, I'm not claiming Eclipse is the holy grail of mapping. It isn't, and will need work to be para-ready.

But what does it offer?

A unique layout, with departments being in an outer ring with a separated central area.

Lots of maintenance room for antags or maint goblins to do crap.

Well laid out departments that are functional for both antags to break into, and for regular players to just do their jobs.

 

At the end of the day, fixing the issues with meta requires a hundred times more effort than porting a better map. And you won't find a mapper willing to do it since the issues are to areas integral to meta's design.

 

Issues that need solutions:

Eclipse will need remapping. I am willing to do this work, but community input on various departments will be needed. Areas such as permabrig, AI sat, and toxins test need a complete overhaul.

Think of Eclipse in the webmap not as the finished product, but as the canvas to work from as a base.

Edited August 6, 2021 by S34N
spelling

[Viz]

Sean, this is the seventh week in a row you've shown a new map in class.

I do agree with your points about Meta.

Now, I am a fan of many of Yog's Eclipsestation's features, especially some of their common areas. However, a lot of maints on Eclipse are just as bad as meta, if you look at it. Additionally, I do not like medical being on the opposite side of the station from most places, instead of in the center. Those are pretty big things to fix if the are to be fixed.

[S34N]

3 minutes ago, Woje said:

Now, I am a fan of many of Yog's Eclipsestation's features, especially some of their common areas. However, a lot of maints on Eclipse are just as bad as meta, if you look at it. Additionally, I do not like medical being on the opposite side of the station from most places, instead of in the center. Those are pretty big things to fix if the are to be fixed.

It is true that some of the outer ring maints are narrow, but its much easier to fix that when space is the borer, as opposed to the meta maints that are in the center of 3 departments.

Medical is an interesting one, I hadn't given much thought to why it being on the edge was bad. I suppose it could be swapped with supply if it was really essential to have it central.

[Viz]

14 minutes ago, S34N said:

Medical is an interesting one, I hadn't given much thought to why it being on the edge was bad. I suppose it could be swapped with supply if it was really essential to have it central.

Try to estimate how many tiles you have to travel with a hurt person (or as a hurt person) from any point you're likely to get hurt in on box (or delta) to make it to medical, and compare it with this map. It's a marked difference. The reason why is because on those two maps medical is integrated into the central part of the station, while on Eclipse it's remote.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Woje
deleted half my point lmao

[Spacemanspark]

Just don't die then 

[Viz]

Oh I don't, but I play paramedic so I have to drag all the baldies you see.

[AffectedArc07]

Mirroring here from coderbus

Context: Wholesome Boy is a yogstation headcoder.

 

If it got disabled due to bugs and is on the line for being completely gutted, I aint in favour of bringing it over too much. I also like Meta as a map. 

[Spacemanspark]

I genuinely think Meta can be improved upon. If general consensus wants Meta replaced, so be it--but goddamn it do I love Metastation. Call maintenance cramped all you like... I love all the ghetto rooms and areas to explore.

And with Arc's post... mmm... not really onboard with eclipse, either. What about... was it Cere? The one with the asteroids.

[Esenno]

4 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

was it Cere? The one with the asteroids.

I believe so, yes.

[DevL]

Kilo




(I'm kidding for the love of god and all things holy do not add kilo oh my god fuck that fucking map)

[S34N]

19 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

I genuinely think Meta can be improved upon. If general consensus wants Meta replaced, so be it--but goddamn it do I love Metastation. Call maintenance cramped all you like... I love all the ghetto rooms and areas to explore.

And with Arc's post... mmm... not really onboard with eclipse, either. What about... was it Cere? The one with the asteroids.

I'd love for cere to be made a thing, but currently there is one maint firmly against and one very much on the fence regarding cere due to previous performance issues.

Edited August 7, 2021 by S34N

[S34N]

19 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

I genuinely think Meta can be improved upon. If general consensus wants Meta replaced, so be it--but goddamn it do I love Metastation. Call maintenance cramped all you like... I love all the ghetto rooms and areas to explore.

I agree, meta can be improved, the problem is by who and at what cost?

No mapper wants to touch meta because of how bad it is, it has not had the same love as delta regarding updates and love in the recent months.

It's also the time commitment. It's genuinely easier, faster, and more fun to start a new map from scratch as opposed to making significant fixes to old ones.

Edited August 7, 2021 by S34N

[SabreML]

Personally I'm not really sure about this.

On the one hand, I've never played on Metastation before so I can't say how bad the maintenance issue actually is gameplay-wise when compared to other maps.
On the other hand though, I've never played on Metastation before.

Saying that it might have issues ingame is one thing, and I agree that it does seem that way, but removing a very popular map entirely after only a couple of test rounds seems a bit hasty to me.

Eclipse Station does look really cool and I'd definitely be interested in seeing it ingame, I'm just not sure that it should be as a full replacement. At least not without a bit more data backing it up first.

[destinycall]

I really like the look of EclipseStation.   It looks big and well-designed.   The circular layout appeals to me in a way that the current station's layout never has.   And I like the little touches - like the park and little windows in the library.   I think it would be a nice station to live, work, and occasionally die in.

[TheYeetster]

I remember sitting in a discord call with kyet and S34N, and someone mentioned the idea of a new map specifically created for paradise and our culture, becuase all "our maps are ports from other servers it brings their culture." Now I've never mapped and cant even understand how difficult making a new map is, so this idea is more of a question, Would that even be possible? Making a map specifically for paradise? I've just made my first PR and mapping has been a big interest for me for awhile, If someone was willing to teach me I could try and help any mapping project. Again, question/suggestion here.

[Viz]

27 minutes ago, TheYeetster said:

I remember sitting in a discord call with kyet and S34N, and someone mentioned the idea of a new map specifically created for paradise and our culture, becuase all "our maps are ports from other servers it brings their culture." Now I've never mapped and cant even understand how difficult making a new map is, so this idea is more of a question, Would that even be possible? Making a map specifically for paradise? I've just made my first PR and mapping has been a big interest for me for awhile, If someone was willing to teach me I could try and help any mapping project. Again, question/suggestion here.

I mean there's no reason why it should be impossible. It is an arduous task however, and one not guaranteed to succeed. You're in for a lot of potentially futile work. 

[DevL]

I think that if we got a number of people in our community who know about mapping/general game level design, as well as a few maints/heads, then the general idea of a paradise specific map could start to be formed, kind of like how Fulpstation has their helios, Bay has their torch, Goon has their... Whatever the fuck goon is. After that idea is formed and generally agreed upon, a small group of people could probably start on the base work for it, getting it to a state similar to what delta, meta, etc is here currently.

That being said there's no telling how long that would take, other than that it would be a very, very long time.

I would LOVE a nice new fresh look, but...

Theres a number of just... Holes in it... (yes I know we can change this but at what point do we just cut our losses)

Maints aren't much better than meta, if anything I would say they're actually worse (yes I know we can change this but at what point do we just cut our losses)

Engineering is horribly setup (yes I know we can change this but at what point do we just cut our losses)

Eclipse as a whole seems to be a generally outdated map, with blocky, empty rooms (yes I know we can change this but at what point do we just cut our losses)

The paint scheme is more chaotic than my cat when hes high and has catnip (yes I know we can change this but at what point do we just cut our losses)

and more.

If you want to try, you can probably fix all the issues (keep in mind you'll have to re-pipe alot of shit to) but you already have AA's objection, and everyone else is kind of meh on it.. I would enjoy something like cere's or mix it up a bit even with a planet side map/moon base style thing like iceb- *dies* but I'm not really confident in my ability to map so, oh well. Anyways that's just a random dudes 2 cents.

[S34N]

Yeah, after further consideration I don't think this is going anywhere.

My main point about metastation stands, but we need to find a solution to that elsewhere (Cere, or heaven forbid a new para bespoke map)

[Froststahr]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:06 AM, S34N said:

Yeah, after further consideration I don't think this is going anywhere.

My main point about metastation stands, but we need to find a solution to that elsewhere (Cere, or heaven forbid a new para bespoke map)

Was a resurrected asteroid ever considered?

 

Its reception over on /tg/ was positive I believe, but maps get removed if they don't have a maintainer. It's a large map based within an asteroid which is an idea I've always liked.

Main problem with kilo ~~aside from it being terrible~~ is that it's a map that doesn't work very well with more than 40 players. Asteroid however, was designed with a large pop in mind. Obviously digging up a corpse and dressing it up is still a lot of labor, but it might be an interesting project to crack away on if the layout is considered decent.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Froststahr

[Viz]

24 minutes ago, Froststahr said:

Obviously digging up a corpse and dressing it up is still a lot of labor

That's what we're doing with our meta and delta anyway. AsteroidStation my beloved, I've always thought it was cool as hell. Said that on discord months ago. I'd love to see that here.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Woje
am dumb