Making Maints Shroomed all over not allowed, and set under powergaming

[Keppler]

I think it already falls within powergaming, but as per enforcement it does not appear to be so, thus this suggestion.

 

First of all - Coding Difficulty:

No coding needed at all, just a rule change/clarification

Scope:

Small, banning shrooms in maints is not a huge project.

Balance:

Shrooms in maints is a big negative for a lot of antags, most of all the sling. For slings the shrooms ruin games, for cults it doesnt help (as they have NV), for terrors it lights where they dont want it, for tators it makes maints less safe than they already are with patrols. Furthermore it is not hard for botany to make them, and they spread so fast that it is not achiveable to get rid of them. The upside of them? Makes botany somewhat more relevant, but botany can already do a lot of memey things, Sec can get NV huds, as can almost all others easily, and isnt maints meant to be dark anyhow?

Furthermore, is it not so that making shrooms in maints is like wrenching pipes with terrors? It is MEANT to fuck over antags, not to make things look nice or such. For example, one will seldom see it unless slings are called. I for one consider the shrooms just as bad as making cams all over maints, wrenching pipes to sabotage terrors, or removing pipes "in case" an AI is malf so it cannot plasmaflood.

[Spacemanspark]

I've always deleted shrooms if they get too massive as is. 

People preemptively shrooming the station before any threat is announced are on my list of "people I want to bonk with a mallet"

It should be under powergaming, I agree with this. 

[Gatchapod]

I'd just like to point out it that this is largely pointless as a change to powergaming rules.

As you've said, no antag benefits from self-spreading light source. If crew is not supposed to use glowshrooms to combat antags, remove the feature from the code. Rules are mostly for things we cannot enforce mechanically. This we actually can enforce mechanically.

As a code change, I'd wholly support it. Glowshrooms are obnoxious, ruin rounds for antags, probably lag the server and basically serve as yet another annoyance from the hydroponics.
This should, obviously, apply to glowcaps and shadowshrooms, too.

[Keppler]

4 hours ago, Gatchapod said:

I'd just like to point out it that this is largely pointless as a change to powergaming rules.

As you've said, no antag benefits from self-spreading light source. If crew is not supposed to use glowshrooms to combat antags, remove the feature from the code. Rules are mostly for things we cannot enforce mechanically. This we actually can enforce mechanically.

As a code change, I'd wholly support it. Glowshrooms are obnoxious, ruin rounds for antags, probably lag the server and basically serve as yet another annoyance from the hydroponics.
This should, obviously, apply to glowcaps and shadowshrooms, too.

I proposed it as a rule change, due to two things, first off I dont know code for shit, second, as I see it this is more of a enforcement of a rule rather than removing anything (Which is often more contested). That said a removal of it would also solve my issues with it, so thats also a valid fix.

[EvadableMoxie]

I wouldn't be opposed to the ability to plant shrooms be remoted entirely, or perhaps just the reproduction disabled. There is only one legitimate use for it, and that is against Shadowlings which are in a pretty poor state currently.   Most of the time botany is just spreading them to be obnoxious and annoying as the color changes are incredibly irritating on the eyes.

[MattTheFicus]

I think @EvadableMoxie has the right idea, just make them not automatically spread or turn their reproduction rate WAY down. Why allow a mechanic that only helps the Crew, requires next to no work, and dunks on an antag that is already in a bad spot.

[Viz]

Powergaming or not, I think they're fuckin' ugly and stupid. I wouldn't miss them if they were gone or had their ability to spread curbed.

[Keppler]

14 hours ago, Woje said:

Powergaming or not, I think they're fuckin' ugly and stupid. I wouldn't miss them if they were gone or had their ability to spread curbed.

I agree at that, but if (as I mean it does) breach anti powergaming rules thats quite the good reason to get rid off/not allow them used. They do look ugly and nasty as well though.

[thatdanguy23]

I always deleted shrooms of any kind if they spread to the point of being obnoxious - not only because of the powergaming and the offense to the eyes, but because some peoples' frames can't handle it. Honestly removing the ability to be planted would be a net bonus, but for now making it a rule restriction is best.

[Nazsgull]

Some thoughts?
https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/compare/master...Nazsgull:glowshroomsBalance

Also I understand those values can be overwritten using the genemodificator :/

[Gatchapod]

5 hours ago, Nazsgull said:

Some thoughts?
https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/compare/master...Nazsgull:glowshroomsBalance

Also I understand those values can be overwritten using the genemodificator :/

Useless. As you've pointed out, it's just genes nerf. It won't affect anything but the mycelium available in the vendors. At best, it'll delay the inevitable. At worst, it'll be entirely bypassed by a knowledgeable botanist.

I think the best solution here would be to make glowshrooms never spread. You can plant them to get a source of light on a single tile, but that's it.
This solution would allow people to use glowshrooms in aesthetically appealing ways (i.e. chapel dedicated to nature illuminated solely by mushroom) without causing disgusting outbreaks many admins and players seem to detest.

[Kyet]

I would support a PR which removes glowshrooms' ability to self-replicate.
I might even support nerfing them even more then that, such as by just preventing you from planting them anywhere except hydroponics trays.

[Eler00]

54 minutes ago, Kyet said:

I might even support nerfing them even more then that, such as by just preventing you from planting them anywhere except hydroponics trays.

At that point, we might as well remove them, since they'd be pointless except for RnD.

[Viz]

17 minutes ago, Eler00 said:

At that point, we might as well remove them, since they'd be pointless except for RnD.

Not remotely true. Glowcaps and glowshrooms provide numerous good genes, including 10% radium, 10% phosphorus, 10% teslium, Electrical Activity, and Bioluminescence.

[Lurapa]

CM handles this sort of this perfectly. Namely with weeds/xeno tiles.

1) Plant the Glowshroom / Shadowshroom down.
2) That placement will be the HQ, and slightly thicker than the rest around it - to help players identify.
3) Attack that HQ, and progressively have all the glowshroom/shadowshroom spawned from that 1, be killed. 

IC way would be the HQ sacrifice the spawns it made, to protect itself. Eventually dying.

It can remain the same, but be easier to destroy as an antag / shadowling.
 Less obnoxious to hunt down.

So you're not hitting shroom 55, and 56, 57, 58, 59 spawn.
 

Alternatively have it be like a supply chain. Where you have to feed the Shrooms nutrient/water - to further its growth and spread.

Like a supply chain.

That way you can cut it off at idk Botany, or 5 HQs down, and it'll kill HQ 6-30 if not reconnected.

Odd language use, odd temrinology etc. But I think they are fine as is, in terms of purpose.

They REALLY REALLY just need a way to delete, via players. Easier.

[Kugamo]

 I like the idea of the planted shroom being the central node and only lesser shrooms spread from it and are dependant on it to exist. Then I think if they are in too high concentration having "spores" be something emitted from them as a nerf also, they could force walk and coughing from anyone who is not using internals. Beyond that their light output could be nerfed to be similar to a PDA light if slowdown isnt good enough alone.

[Lurapa]

1 minute ago, Kugamo said:

 I like the idea of the planted shroom being the central node and only lesser shrooms spread from it and are dependant on it to exist. Then I think if they are in too high concentration having "spores" be something emitted from them as a nerf also, they could force walk and coughing from anyone who is not using internals. Beyond that their light output could be nerfed to be similar to a PDA light if slowdown isnt good enough alone.

The main issue with shrooms is their ability to replicate, and our inability to counter that.

With nodes, deleting all reliant shrooms. It would buff player practicability. And through that psuedo nerf the shrooms, not through lowering their luminosity, growth rate, or spread. But through introducing a new, reasonable way to destroy them.

Both as Antagonist (animal or other) and as Crew. Above all else our inability to reasonably destroy them, is what makes them so strong. 

A shadowling will need to spend time, take damage, and is psuedo locked from using the shroom's weakness (welders). And while they're attacking it, it'll replicate. If we make it a node, and improve our ability to destroy. It'll boost Slings, boost Antags, boost Crew, and nerf Shrooms without actually changing how they work. Just how they die.

[Keppler]

For all interested, there is now a PR for the removal of spreading shrooms, a soulution that solves the issue I meant was there anyhow

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/15445

Edited February 7, 2021 by Keppler

[Gatchapod]

For those who prefer forums over GitHub, outside of the PR mentioned by Keppler, I now also made an alternative PR for those who scream "improve, don't remove".

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/15475

This ports a decay mechanic from /tg/, where each node has its own endurance stat that decays. Once it reaches 0, node gets removed. Each node spread mutates, giving a semi-randomized endurance stat based on parent's stat.
There are some more nuances and if you're interested, the PR and links therein explain everything.