Genetics rework ideas

[Eler00]

Some attempts at nerfing x-ray vision were recently shot down on the github (See https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/10102), which sparked some discussions on the discord where we concluded the real issue with genetical x-ray vision is the random nature of genetics that sometimes can give all of sec x-ray 15 minutes into the round if the geneticist is lucky, to give an example. Making all kinds of powerful abilities entirely random on when you get them is, IMO, rather poor game balance.

 

As Tiger says, we're in need of a genetics rework/balance. I intend this thread to hopefully spark a bit of a discussion on this. I also plan to present my own idea on how genetics can be rebalanced, though I am currently working on a different project and so can't currently code it in even if I believed it would get approved. I'm writing it down here so I don't forget and to get more input, though it was well-received in coder_chat.

 

So, how my reworked genetics would function:

 

Instead of each DNA block having a power or disability assigned, powers would instead be activated based on the interplay of different, active DNA blocks. We keep the 54 DNA blocks from the current system. For example, let's say 5 of the blocks get randomly flagged as 'improving vision'. For the sake of my example, let's say 2, 4, 20, 34 and 50

At the same time, DNA blocks also get flagged with certain disabilitites. So let's for example say 4, 8 and 15 cause stuttering. Note that a DNA block can be flagged by both. In theory, a DNA block could also be flagged by several powers or disabilities.

 

A power or disability would only be active if enough flagged blocks of it are active. Simply setting block 2 to active (via the same system as currently, IE it has to be above a certain value) wouldn't actually give you x-ray vision. Certain powers might have tiers, where a small number of flagged blocks give a lower tier version of the power. For example, having 2 active vision-improving blocks would grant thermal vision, while 4 are needed to get x-ray.

 

This means you can't simply go through and mindlessly max one block after the next to test for powers. Instead, you need to keep several blocks active at once, see if any powers manifest, then try to narrow down which blocks are actually responsible. For example, you activate blocks 1-10 on someone and see he's now blind and also is a dwarf. This would tell you that some of the blocks 1-10 are flagged for blindness, but some are also flagged for dwarfism. Then you have to one by one de-activate blocks again to narrow it down, mapping out which block holds what ( I can also imagine other, more effective ways to go about it). This way, players need to draw some more conclusions and think more on what possible combinations could explain the powers they see.

It also ensures that more high-tier powers like hulk are less 'swingy' in how soon you can discover them, since you need a higher number of active blocks to get them active. Also, sometimes disabilities might overlap with useful power blocks in such a way some powers or power combinations can only be gotten by also accepting a disability.

 

To compensate for the added effort this causes, you might have to make the DNA modification itself less random, so players can more easily activate and deactivate DNA blocks, since they'll need to do more of it under the new system.

 

[Splgrk]

Clearly, Xray vision needs to be more realistic, instead. I propose that Xray vision is stopped by metal walls, but penetrates people, making them invisible when you have the upgrade.

[EvadableMoxie]

My main main concern is that if the system becomes something akin to say, virology, you're going to have geneticists who master it and then are handing out X-ray every round 15 minutes into the round, the same way that a Virologist who has mastered Virology can produce a min/maxed virus in the first 15 minutes.

Edited November 15, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[davidchan]

My proposed changes (and overall nerf) to X-ray would be as follows.
 

Quote

 

Pros:

• Can see through all walls and objects (effective same vision a ghost on your tile might have)
• Can see through all masks and identity blocking objects (never see someone as UNKNOWN again unless they've suffered severe anatomical damage.)

Cons:

• Eyewear no longer functions (you see through walls, you no longer benefit from MedHUD, SecHUD, Diagnostic HUD. HUD Implants would still provide this information.)
• Flash and welding protection no longer functions. (Welding Goggles, Welding Masks, Welding Gas Masks and Sunglasses no longer offer their protection, if you are welding or standing adjacent to someone who is you will take eye damage. Flashbangs and flashes will always blind you and potentially deal eye damage. Welding Shield Implant still protects against these.)

 

In short, if you want to see everything, you will see EVERYTHING and only science/medical implants have a hope of countering the draw backs. If everyone in security gets X-ray then they do so at the risk of their own flashbangs hitting them and without their HUDs without implants from robotics. If Vampires are still going to get Xray as a bonus for their true form power, then the meta of harass sec and jaunt away, then smart security gets to pop a flashbang quickly and stun the vamp through walls if they know the little turd is there.

[bryanayalalugo]

You could do something like tg does, where x-ray doesn't grant you night vision.

So you can see everywhere, but if a area has no lights, you can't see into it.

[WingedYordle]

Oh, I like the tea drinker suggestion

[Scrat]

I don't think that getting 500 blood as a vamp should punish you by making you permanently unable to use huds or flash protection..

[Corocan]

Rather than re-work genetics entirely, a simpler solution could be to make it only possible to achieve certain block values with component upgrades. This would remove the 'muh rng' complaint because it requires a functioning RnD and also curb any early discovery of 'unfair' powers.

Example being:

Micro: <= B

Nano: <= C

Pico: <= D

Femto: <= F

If you really care about 'balancing' xray, implement the above and move xray to the Major Powers group rather than Intermediate Powers. Though, if I'm going to be honest, XRay/Hulk/TK are really the only things genetics has going for it. Most other powers are generally useless/flavor text. If you gimp genetics by adjusting/removing XRay, then Virology had ought to be next on the chopping block because the benefits that a decent virologist can produce would not only be better than what genetics could provide by a kilometer, but also infinitely more consistent as it can be cranked out reliably within the 15-20 minute mark.

On 11/15/2018 at 11:29 AM, davidchan said:

If Vampires are still going to get Xray as a bonus for their true form power, then the meta of harass sec and jaunt away, then smart security gets to pop a flashbang quickly and stun the vamp through walls if they know the little turd is there. 

Not only is this an awful reward for reaching full power as a vampire, but this works both ways where this is just a terrible power for security to get because they're now subject to their own flashbangs/flashers which makes the power just dreadful. Overall, I think your proposed changes for XRay combine the worst aspects of Kidan, where you can't wear eyegear, and Vulpkanin, where someone can give you literal eye damage with a laser pointer, and IPC, where someone can rail you from beyond a wall. Generally the objective of a nerf is to bring balance to a feature of the game that would be considered unbalanced. I don't think the listed pros are worth the cons.

I can understand people wanting to maybe make xray harder to obtain (which is debatable but I think it's worth conversation), but pretty much every suggestion I've read that involves changing how the power functions usually just ends up rendering it such a pain in the ass to have, that I'm starting to think that they truthfully just want it removed but they know that's a very extreme decision so they think that adding these unbalanced disadvantages will discourage people from using it to the point of obsolescence and that's just not a viable solution unless you want the power just straight up gone.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Corocan

[davidchan]

5 hours ago, Scrat said:

I don't think that getting 500 blood as a vamp should punish you by making you permanently unable to use huds or flash protection..

Vamps having xray at all is ridiculous, especially given that it comes bundled with immunity to holy water and the chapel (their only weaknesses), they already get thermals to begin with.

2 hours ago, Corocan said:

Not only is this an awful reward for reaching full power as a vampire, but this works both ways where this is just a terrible power for security to get because they're now subject to their own flashbangs/flashers which makes the power just dreadful. Overall, I think your proposed changes for XRay combine the worst aspects of Kidan, where you can't wear eyegear, and Vulpkanin, where someone can give you literal eye damage with a laser pointer, and IPC, where someone can rail you from beyond a wall. Generally the objective of a nerf is to bring balance to a feature of the game that would be considered unbalanced. I don't think the listed pros are worth the cons.

I can understand people wanting to maybe make xray harder to obtain (which is debatable but I think it's worth conversation), but pretty much every suggestion I've read that involves changing how the power functions usually just ends up rendering it such a pain in the ass to have, that I'm starting to think that they truthfully just want it removed but they know that's a very extreme decision so they think that adding these unbalanced disadvantages will discourage people from using it to the point of obsolescence and that's just not a viable solution unless you want the power just straight up gone.

X Ray has been a no risk, high level power for years. Even with the listed cons (which if you read the whole suggestion can still be avoided by just getting the eye implants stalled) you still gain a huge tactical advantage over everyone else. Xray has no downsides for its power, nor does it have any visual tells that it is active, unlike TK or Hulk which both make your sprite very noticeable.

A PR was thrown up to remove Xray from the genetics list, and despite popular support from the community it was closed by maintainers. My suggestion is a compromise to keep an overused power in the game and stopping it from making Thermals redundant. That in itself is the very definition of balance.

[Corocan]

3 hours ago, davidchan said:

X Ray has been a no risk, high level power for years. Even with the listed cons (which if you read the whole suggestion can still be avoided by just getting the eye implants installed) you still gain a huge tactical advantage over everyone else.

I think that the hoops necessary to go through justify the reward. Genetics is a bit cheekier in terms of hoops to go through since it can vary from round to round, but despite that fact we don't really see security outfitted with xray as commonplace.

3 hours ago, davidchan said:

A PR was thrown up to remove Xray from the genetics list, and despite popular support from the community it was closed by maintainers. My suggestion is a compromise to keep an overused power in the game and stopping it from making Thermals redundant. That in itself is the very definition of balance.

First off, I'm not sure you can say that that PR had 'popular support from the community'. A server player poll would probably be a more indicative statistic to pull from. Second, I don't think xray is overused so much as thermals are underused. Thermals definitely get the shorter end of the stick. While it's easier to get to the research levels for thermals, their material costs are about the same and they also don't have the latent advantage of being discovered via genetics. I think that it's reasonable to make xray a tad harder to get, but it's completely pointless to try and change xray. The drawback of xray shouldn't be in its function, but the endeavor necessary to achieve it.

That being said, purely from my perspective, a good change would be something more like replacing xray with thermals in the genetics block, rather than making xray an exercise in masochism.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Corocan

[Pennwick]

10 hours ago, Corocan said:

Second, I don't think xray is overused so much as thermals are underused. Thermals definitely get the shorter end of the stick. While it's easier to get to the research levels for thermals, their material costs are about the same and they also don't have the latent advantage of being discovered via genetics.

Just as a note here: Thermals cost more diamond but don't require Bluespace mesh or uranium. However I feel like their requirements are practically equal. You do need one higher level of materials, programming, and plasma but at the levels required you can do it completely from within science assuming mining is doing their job. The more significant roadblock is Bio 7 which requires Ambrosia gaia or a Sentience/Transferal potion from xenobio. As such they usually become available at the same time.

[bryanayalalugo]

On x-ray, the genetics SOP should probably not allow any handing out of powers to security, requiring CMO/RD approval like the rest of the crew, since red alert tends to be called very early in the shift and usually persists for a long period of time.

[Shina]

Approval of the CMO/RD is needed for every single power given out, irregardless of alarm status.

Regarding the initial proposal: the reworks sound interesting, but even more RNG-based, since you now need to find out endless combinations of blocks instead of working on a list, which makes teamwork between genetecists even harder or up to impossible. It sounds a bit tedious, even if you make manipulating blocks easier and thus faster. As the system is now, two good genetecists need almost all of the two hours to finish all blocks. The chance of xray after 15 minutes is there, but not that high.