Ralta

Assistants 2.0

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The Idea: Separate Assistants from Civilians/Businessmen/Traders by allowing Assistants to choose a department to assist. This gives them basic departmental access (e.g. can open the main doors, but cannot open lockers), as well as the usual maintenance access. They would get a basic title change (Engineering Assistant, Medical Assistant, Robotics Assistant etc etc)

Changes Civilians to be just that; Civilians. Visitors to the station, in whatever form that may take but not actual crew members. There are a few ways of approaching this, one would be to keep them the same as they are now (i.e. not belonging to a department, retain all access and privilege), another would be to revoke access to maintenance and have them pay for food and drinks, as well as medical services beyond basic triage, or you could go somewhere between the two. Obviously the latter options would require more of an overhaul of the economy, but this is something which could be added later.


The Reasoning: One of, if the not the biggest complaints I see from Paradise players is the lack of jobs. This change to Assistants would accomplish three things:

  1. Add a functional reason for Assistants to exist beyond pure RP.
  2. Adds more job to the server, especially to those which are often sought-after.
  3. Gives newer players a way to ease into jobs like engineering, medical and science.

Of course, limits would need to be set on how many assistants can be added to each department (probably 2 per department). But even if this were set to two additional personnel, that could be a great increase to various roles.

Implementation: Add the option to choose departments you'd be willing to assist in, and get randomly placed in one of the departments you choose if slots are available. Might be best to spawn in the usual Civvie/Assistant positions, 
 

Limitations: I believe arguments could be made that it could over-strengthen certain departments (or just add needless bodies for the sake of inflation). Although I can't directly contradict this argument, I can say that at the very least, Assistants have less power in the department than a fully-fledged member of staff would. They might also make some jobs less frustrating by having someone you can delegate to (e.g. a surgeon requesting meds from the fridge, or an engineer needing an airlock electronics).

I'll be adding more in a bit, I'm at work at the moment but any feedback, and any questions/queries/comments/concerns are appreciated.

EDIT: Since a couple questions have been asked that are totally relevant in Discord, here's the conversation:

Quote

Birdtalon-Today at 2:28 PM

One resistance to the adding of more job slots was our map size

Even just "assistant" jobs is more people cramming into the department. What do you respond to that with?

Frankly, I don't think it actually changes anything insofar as the number of players for the map size. I think it would take our existing number of players and make their lives less boring when they don't get a proper job slot.

If we added two jobslots for assistants to every department (engi, sci, robotics, cargo, kitchen, botany etc) then that could really reduce both greytiding and the tedium that comes with being a civvie sometimes.

Quote

Birdtalon-Today at 2:31 PM

Also do you propose these to be job slots themselves or some other kind of system, sorry I've only skimread your thread.

As for implementation, I think it'd only be right to add specific slots to the department for assistants. That way, you still get X number of Engineers for example, but get 2 Assistants on top.

I can't think of many jobs where they have a problem with too many people, but I think almost every department has issues with 'OH GOD WHERE ARE THE STAFF'

Edited by Ralta
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Interesting premise. I know I've had a lot of fun taking the custom title Executive Assistant, and even if I don't get to actually "assist" the command staff my plucky good attitude and willingness to help assist seems appreciated :) 

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Gonna bump this up 'cause it disappeared into the ether and I want more opinions/feedback.

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I personally don't see the point of this. Why not just be an engineer instead of an engineering assistant? And why would you make the Civilian role basically unplayable by removing its access to maintenance?

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4 minutes ago, Athavirasu Aqua said:

Why not just be an engineer instead of an engineering assistant?

It's especially good for newbies who aren't confident in setting up the engine for instance. Or a medical assistant - no ones gonna expect you (and get angry at you) for not knowing surgery.

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It would be better if the titles were: junior officer, Medical intern, Technical assistant(engineering), research assistant and test subject( would be cool as a way of genetics testing things on people or science)

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I think we can be a bit more creative with this. You could expand the civilian roles to include Training Officer, Boxer, Waiter, Pianist, Porter and Celebrity.

 

Am I stealing from goon? Maybe.

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On 9/29/2017 at 9:46 AM, necaladun said:

It's especially good for newbies who aren't confident in setting up the engine for instance. Or a medical assistant - no ones gonna expect you (and get angry at you) for not knowing surgery.

Dis.
It's a great way to volunteer to learn something, or practice a department you might not be super knowledgable about, but not take the same sort of responsibility.
you play an Engineer, people expect you to know HOW to Engineer.
You take an Engineering Intern or Apprentice or whatever, and people know that you may not know all the ins and outs, you're there to learn the ropes.

You could in theory do the same thing withcustom jobs from the HoP, but that involves way more moving parts that really don't often happen.
Lot's of servers use this 'intern' system of alt titles for assistant, and I think it's a pretty good one.

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3 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Dis.
It's a great way to volunteer to learn something, or practice a department you might not be super knowledgable about, but not take the same sort of responsibility.
you play an Engineer, people expect you to know HOW to Engineer.
You take an Engineering Intern or Apprentice or whatever, and people know that you may not know all the ins and outs, you're there to learn the ropes.

You could in theory do the same thing withcustom jobs from the HoP, but that involves way more moving parts that really don't often happen.
Lot's of servers use this 'intern' system of alt titles for assistant, and I think it's a pretty good one.

This is the core concept, really. A lot of the other ideas thrown around in the first post were just thoughts relating to the idea.

It really just boils down to opening more slots and giving players a chance to ease into roles that are usually quite complex and intimidating.

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So far, I've had nothing but good feedback which I'm really pleased about, but I was wondering if anyone had any negative things to say? Or at the very least, any concerns about the core concept of adding departmental assistants. 

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5 minutes ago, Ralta said:

Or at the very least, any concerns about the core concept of adding departmental assistants. 

I think it's a solid idea, however the main concern I have is how it's specifically done.

If they are to have access and actually be part of a department, then it'd need to be an entirely new job, code wise. AFAIK, alt-titles aren't really able to be used to change access on cards or what department you're in in the crew manifest.

When it comes to actual access and equipment, I'm not sure how to account for them in - for instance, additional insulated gloves in engineering for engi assistants.

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2 minutes ago, necaladun said:

I think it's a solid idea, however the main concern I have is how it's specifically done.

If they are to have access and actually be part of a department, then it'd need to be an entirely new job, code wise. AFAIK, alt-titles aren't really able to be used to change access on cards or what department you're in in the crew manifest.

When it comes to actual access and equipment, I'm not sure how to account for them in - for instance, additional insulated gloves in engineering for engi assistants.

That is a fair point. I guess you'd need to add a specific job for every department called X/Y/Z Assistant with the appropriate access/spawn area/gear etc.

For gear, I don't think it'd matter quite so much, since they're supposed to be a lower level of the department. With engineering for example, they shouldn't have access to the lockers for gloves (but are welcome to a pair, if there's spare), but should have access to the vendors for tools and required equipment. Same goes for medical; they don't need nitrile gloves or health scanner upgrades, but if someone else in the department wants to give it to them, then fair enough.

Sadly, this isn't the sort of idea you can just say "Yus, looks good - I'll throw up a PR in 5 mins", it'd require more discussion and debate to work out. But I do honestly believe this would help to make Paradise a little more flavourful when in high/very high pop.

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Just now, Ralta said:

Sadly, this isn't the sort of idea you can just say "Yus, looks good - I'll throw up a PR in 5 mins", it'd require more discussion and debate to work out.

NO DO IT NOW OMG WHY R U TAKING SO LONG TO DO THIS YOU R SO INCOMPETENT

 

More seriously, I think basic access - enough to get in the front doors, is all thats needed.

Engineers just need enough for a toolbox and belt.

Medical need...enough to drag people into a sleeper/cryo?

Science need...?

Service need...?

 

Sec Cadets etc I'd honestly leave for a separate time, as thats a whole different kettle of fish.

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12 minutes ago, necaladun said:

More seriously, I think basic access - enough to get in the front doors, is all thats needed.

Engineers just need enough for a toolbox and belt.

Medical need...enough to drag people into a sleeper/cryo?

Science need...?

Service need...?

Sec Cadets etc I'd honestly leave for a separate time, as thats a whole different kettle of fish.

Agreed. 

Engineers could actually spawn with a toolset in a belt (because let's be honest; tools are crazy abundant anyway).

Medical need not a whole lot more than access. As long as they can open all the same doors as a doctor (including surgery), they'd be fine. Could MAYBE give them access the med vendor as well.

Science would be the same as medical; access is the primary concern. Same with Robotics. Heck, I'd give Science assistants access to robotics as well, since they could help the entire department by passing items back and forth between robotics and science.

Service I think would need to be split: Cargo, Bar (maybe?), Botany, Kitchen. Otherwise, you'd give a Service Assistant access to everywhere, which would be very bad. Again though, I think Access is the only concern.

Security, as you say, is a whole other kettle of fish. Personally, I'd say they need access of a similar level to Detective (i.e. main brig areas but not any of the locker areas, also sans access to the Detective's office). They should be restricted by SOP in the same way as Detective too; make them unable to arrest but can assist in processing and brigging procedure. HoS may overrule as usual.

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Just now, Ralta said:

Engineers could actually spawn with a toolset in a belt (because let's be honest; tools are crazy abundant anyway).

Yup.

1 minute ago, Ralta said:

Medical need not a whole lot more than access. As long as they can open all the same doors as a doctor (including surgery), they'd be fine. Could MAYBE give them access the med vendor as well.

Surgery I don't think so - genetics, viro, chem, don't get surgery access. If they can open surgery doors then they can do surgery no problem, which should be reserved for doctors.

1 minute ago, Ralta said:

I'd give Science assistants access to robotics as well, since they could help the entire department by passing items back and forth between robotics and science.

Hell yeah, making the lowest-ranked people to the grunt work and deliveries is kinda standard in workplaces, so that works well.

2 minutes ago, Ralta said:

Service I think would need to be split

A bar assistant would be kinda weird - there's really only 1 access flag for them. I really don't know what access you would give to a service assistant at all...it's also not really something an assistant is needed for. Bar, chef, etc, are all good newbie roles as it is.

 

Cargo assistant I don't think is necessary, cargo tech is already pretty minimal and a great role for newbies.

 

The main thing with a sec cadet would be the SOP etc about arrests...lots more to think about so generally a better thing to leave. There's been ideas floated around it plenty times before but it's never gotten very far sadly, as I think there's a lot of merit there.

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29 minutes ago, necaladun said:

Surgery I don't think so - genetics, viro, chem, don't get surgery access. If they can open surgery doors then they can do surgery no problem, which should be reserved for doctors.

A bar assistant would be kinda weird - there's really only 1 access flag for them. I really don't know what access you would give to a service assistant at all...it's also not really something an assistant is needed for. Bar, chef, etc, are all good newbie roles as it is.

The main thing with a sec cadet would be the SOP etc about arrests...lots more to think about so generally a better thing to leave. There's been ideas floated around it plenty times before but it's never gotten very far sadly, as I think there's a lot of merit there.

Fair enough, I only thought surgery for assisting purposes; ICly, I can understand that we would rather reserve it for doctors but it's one of the scarier parts of medbay and would make learning surgery much easier for a newbie. It would also allow for assisting during surgery - injecting chems to stabilise, hitting with paddles etc. 

Yeah tbh I think I agree with you there; Service in general really doesn't need the additional Assistant role since they're pretty simple themselves (and Cargo is the only one that has a real effect on the station as a whole).

I'd be inclined to suggest leaving Sec out of the equation for now, but floating the idea again later once we see how engineering/science/medbay assistants are received. 

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I'd love it if it were for assisting purposes - but as per other threads, anyone with access in there often does surgery regardless. If they want to actually assist/watch, I think they can just tailgate people in the door.

 

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12 minutes ago, necaladun said:

I'd love it if it were for assisting purposes - but as per other threads, anyone with access in there often does surgery regardless. If they want to actually assist/watch, I think they can just tailgate people in the door.

You're not wrong. I can roll with that - maybe my other suggestion from Discord about making people who aren't doctors fail occasionally at surgery should happen too :P

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13 hours ago, Ralta said:

You're not wrong. I can roll with that - maybe my other suggestion from Discord about making people who aren't doctors fail occasionally at surgery should happen too

Maybe doctors start with implants that let them do surgery slightly faster or with less failure rate or something. And CMO can have a few spare in the locker for HoP recruits.

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8 hours ago, Tayswift said:

Maybe doctors start with implants that let them do surgery slightly faster or with less failure rate or something. And CMO can have a few spare in the locker for HoP recruits.

Certainly a viable option, though I think it's out of the scope of this suggestion for the time being :-)

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The failure here comes from another server that at one time had departmental assi

stents.

 

Sure, it looks good on paper, giving newbies a job, but the reality of the matter is that it’ll be used by experienced players as a greytide leg up.

 

Play engy assistant, loot dem gloves and go screw off. Medical assistant, snag a backpack of aid kits, syringe gun, and surgi tools, and go tide.

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5 minutes ago, SomanB said:

The failure here comes from another server that at one time had departmental assi

stents.

Sure, it looks good on paper, giving newbies a job, but the reality of the matter is that it’ll be used by experienced players as a greytide leg up.

Play engy assistant, loot dem gloves and go screw off. Medical assistant, snag a backpack of aid kits, syringe gun, and surgi tools, and go tide.

You say that as if:

a) It doesn't already happen
b) These items aren't already easily accessed
and
c) This wouldn't be controlled by admins.

What happens on other servers is relevant to other servers and may not be relevant here. I see no harm in trying it, at the very least. The intention of reduced access is partly to reduce potential greytiding anyway.

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On 10/5/2017 at 10:04 AM, SomanB said:

The failure here comes from another server that at one time had departmental assi

stents.

 

Sure, it looks good on paper, giving newbies a job, but the reality of the matter is that it’ll be used by experienced players as a greytide leg up.

 

Play engy assistant, loot dem gloves and go screw off. Medical assistant, snag a backpack of aid kits, syringe gun, and surgi tools, and go tide.

And get fired or possibly even bwoinked if you're pretty clearly greytiding instead of doing your job.
Because as soon as you take that alt title you ARE taking a job, you're no longer safe from "Responsibility" like the Tide is, because you are giving yourself a job, you are learning a department and helping out in it, where Assistants are just free to roam and scream at people for things or to be given access/jobs.
You just have a lot less responsibility and people can see at a glance, you are not the skilled loremaster of the given department and to not expect you to know all the tips an tricks.

This is, in practice, the middle of the road option between being a Civvie and Being a Security Officer or Doctor, etc. it is the step between before you feel comfortable enough to take the full thing on your shoulders. But since it is them iddle road, it means you're going to be expected to do things like a job, just not perfectly, or without someone's help.

Edited by Dinarzad
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I had an idea something along these lines.

A different role : Cadet/Navy Trainees. 

They arrive to the station mindshielded, and excluded from antag pools. while having no responsibilities or additional access, they could go to HoP office and get assigned to different departments to learn their operation. 

This way, graytide that want to be graytide remains graytide, and people that actually want to learn by practice could apply for jobs without the usual paranoia "he could be a tator".

//EDIT
I just notices its a thread from 2017. Im really sorry for the necro

Edited by procdrone
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