Abydos

https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Runner

Three trialmins. Wait...

All you have stated is absolutely wrong, you claiming that saline-glucose is incredibly common around the station is false, as there's only two areas you can get it from. Medical or Science Chemistry. And you're claim of "Syndiecakes are common around the station too" is absolutely false, as you'd have to hack the vendors to do it, and even then, there's only 4-5 vendors, and when those are gone / taken / used up by others.. they are gone forever, there's no magical way to refill them. You claiming that people running around with an emergency medipen and sal-glu is a perk, or such compared to IPCs, when IPCs literally run around with a welder and cable coil on them at all times, and yet, I've yet to see anyone besides medical, antags or people going to gateway or such carry all those items on them at the same time. You're also completely ignoring the fact, that even if you treat ONE of the conditions you suffer from, unless you treat the other one, you'll STRAIGHT back to that new condition. If you suffer from heart failure and shock, you medipen yourself, you haven't dealt with shock.. so you'll just regain heart failure, then go into heart arrest. You're claim that chemicals and all just magically fix your conditions instantly is totally untrue and false. And also completely ignoring how people who die while in new crit and get revived have a whole range of issues to deal with. The math doesn't support YOUR claim of "New crit is better then old crit, it gives people more health". It doesn't give people more health, it doesn't magically make them unable to die, or magically make it so they can't have bones or such broken. You make it out as if with new crit, every non-IPCs have magical invisable health buff and able to survive longer, and have all theses conditions without issues. It's completely untrue and false, you want to know what happens with the conditions? 1) Shock, you go into shock.. can't talk, everytime you try you gasp for air, you then start to suffer from confusion, so you randomly walk around in directions you don't want to go. 2) Heart failure, you start randomly passing out. Combined with the confusion from shock, this is BAD for a number of reasons. 3) Heart attack, you take massive oxygen loss, instantly pass out and start taking brain damage which adds onto your existing conditions. So you're claim of people getting buffs is just unfounded and completely without merit, you just look at how people survive longer in crit and say "That makes them too OP, they get more health" when the person then has a whole rack of issues to be dealt with, effectively keeping them in medical for a very long time. Especially the claim of "You can sit in crit", no.. you can't, as each condition stage worsens or jumps to the new one. I could be in crit for 30 seconds, and suddenly jump to heart failure. Even if I autoinject myself, I'd still have shock, which just ramps up heart failure and makes the autoinject useless. I seriously think you need to re-read both the conditions of new crit as well as chemicals since you're making it all out to be wonderful magical fix all chemicals. No, it doesn't, again, you are making it out as if there's magical do-all, be-all chemical that solves all the worlds problems. There's no chemical for fixing bones, there's no chemical for fixing internal bleeding or ruptured lungs, there's a chemical for fixing dead organs but you have to take the organ out first, which will lead to them racking up oxygen / putting them straight into crit if it's a really important organ. And you're forgetting that missing limbs can have infection, internal bleeding, broken, or be even dead when they are put on. Limbs don't just magically heal themselves when taken off. And even if there is a chemical for all theses issues, it's locked behind admeme intervention or somehow gaining traitor items. At this moment, I literally fixed an IPC that got Ion'd, more or less EMP'd twice. You want to know how I fixed them? Cable coil Welder When they stood up, they had no organ issues inside. They then repaired themselves fully and walked out along their way. Your claim of "IPCs have it harder because they can't be slapped with a synthflesh patch" is again, just dumbfounded. Synthflesh has to be created with a long process and you have to hope that chemists actually make it, where as IPCs just carry welder and cable coil on them at almost everytime. I've seen every single IPC have welder or cable coil on them for their issues, and there are many points here that just doesn't make absolute sense. 1) IPCs don't need cloning as they could be dead for a full 2 hour round, and you can STILL revive them by welder and cable coil. 2) Your claim of surgery being harder for IPCs, like.. what? I once gave SR to someone, who ended up having 2 dead organs in two different locations, three internal bleedings and a whole issue of broken bones. Surgery is literally the step of scalpel, hemostat, retractor, bone gel, bone settler, bone gel, cautery. Or scalpel, hemostat, retractor, saw, retractor, kit / remove organ, throw mito while injecting them to keep them above crit, put the organ back in, retractor, bone gel, bone settler, bone gel, cautery. And you're saying that IPC surgery of screwdriver, crowbar, welder/nanopaste/cable coil, crowbar is SO much harder compared to humans? IPCs have the worlds easiest surgery, they don't have risk of infection, they don't get broken bones or the like, they don't get dead organs and even if they did have damaged areas inside of them, you can easily take it out and swap it without them going into crit or needing injectors. They also suffer no pain, so they don't need anthestic or an injection, or the malpractice of bad medicals who cause more harm then good. See all my above quotes on New Crit, you're effectively ignoring all the issues, all the problems, all the fixing they need done because "They survive longer in crit, doesn't matter that they take all theses issues, they survive longer so it's a nerf to everyone else". You're also rather being unreasonable from people saying that old crit is a buff for IPCs and trying to jump to say that if we were to give Plasmamen a broken mechanic, everyone would be in favor of them having it removed no matter what the downsides were. And you would be correct in that. Oil in chemistry is used a lot in various chemicals and is super easy to make. Welding fuel, carbon, hydrogen. Bam, oil. Just ask any chemist to make it and they can in 10 seconds. And the only things IPCs suffer from now is oil loss, which only gives them stamina damage and effectively stuns them when they get low enough. I've yet to see a IPC die from actual blood loss. I repaired an IPC once who said they had about.. 40-50% oil.. if that was a human, they'd be dead straight up. The IPC, they just "couldn't stand up" until we fed them some oil. And that's because all the "easy to break" parts can just be reattached and fix'd ANYWHERE on the station.. literally, all you need is a table and the items, bam.. you got them fixed. Compared to malpractice or ghetto surgery which causes more harm then good often then not.

I never once said anywhere in my post that IPCs can survive in space with cable coil and welder, it was an example of IPCs going out into space as mechanics or the like to loot places like the Syndie outpost and other dangerous areas that anyone else hurt in the area, would be forced to go back to the station. But since you're mentioning the whole point of new crit, let's take into consideration that and pair the two together. Organic / Human: They first suffer from Shock, which can only be treated by Salin. They then suffer from heart failure, which can only be treated by Epine and Atropine. They then suffer heart failure, which can only be treated by defibbing. Even if you get them above crit levels / 0 health, if they suffer from one of theses conditions, they will still take the effects which lead to death. When an organic dies, you have 2 minutes to fix what they are suffering from / get them in the green, to then defib them. Even if you defib them, you then have to treat all of their conditions which include and not limited too: 1) Brain damage. When a person is in new crit for far too long, they take brain damage. Everytime you defib them alive but hadn't treated them, they take brain damage until they are brain dead / their organ is literally dead. 2) Internal bleeding. They'll lose blood every time you defib them and then have to take them to surgery 3) Dead / broken organs. Requiring surgery and mito. 4) Low blood. Self-saying. 5) Broken bones, also leading to organ damage from being moved about by doctors. 6) Missing limbs, requiring surgery to fix them back on. They may ALSO be dead and or broken / internal bleeding, which you'll NEVER know unless you examine it for dead, and put it back on the person to find out their issues. And those are only the common symptoms, we haven't taken into consideration non-cloning races that require mutagen know how or SR which leads to a multiple of problems such as above. The only "plus side" that a lot of you keep saying is "New crit lets people survive in crit for a long time, that makes it too OP cause they get more health." They don't.. all that damage they rack up, does WORSE things to when they are revived. IPCs: Don't suffer from anything. Viruses, internal issues. The only thing they get is leaking oil, which requires just a welder / cable coil fix. If they die, you cable / welder them and they pop back alive. No defibbing needed. An IPC could be dead for 30 minutes, you fix their damage, they pop back alive. If they have broken part inside, you pop them open, welder/cable coil, close them up. Rarely, you'd need nanopaste which is laughably easy to get. IPCs don't take any downside or side-damage to when they are in crit, they just take brute damage. No organ / inside damage like everyone else. If they missing a limb, you place them on a table and just use the limb on them while having the damage zone selected. That's it.. no long surgery or other problems to do. And you're making it out, that IPCs which are the most easiest race on the server to bring back to life and fix, is bad because "New crit gives other people more health. IPCs get oil now, it's not fair, I wanted to run around just welding / cable coiling myself.". I'm still against IPCs gaining space immunity because not only does it not make any sense, it's just another boon on a race. Let's say they get space immunity, what happens? IPCs get a bunch of cable coil, welder and jump out into space to try and loot all the items for themselves. Or abuse mechanics to make it easier for them to break into areas and other things. All for "Well, new crit gives people more health and you nerfed us with oil, why don't IPC get boon?"

Lot of mis-communiation I'm seeing over what can and can't happen to an IPC. Low Karma cost and giving them space humanity will just make everyone go IPCs. IPCs are more or less just humans but robotic. This actually is true. IPCs do not suffer broken bones, instead, when their limbs take a certain amount of damage it causes a malfunction simulating broken bones. A quick welder / cable coil on the arm and it works as normal. And no, dismemberment of robotic limbs do not require surgery, you can easily slam an IPC on a table and reattach the limb by targeting the area and clicking on the person with you holding the limb. The only time an IPC requires surgery is when the damage is too great that a simple welder/cable coil job won't cut it. New Crit only affects non-IPCs races. An IPC does not suffer from oxyloss or even any actual form of damage besides stamina when they lose oil. Only when they lose like 80-90% of their oil do they actually start to take damage. IPCs actually survive longer and better with the old crit system compared to the new crit that other people have to deal with. IPC takes damage in old crit - They die.. welding and cable coiling their body, they come back to life. Human takes damage in new crit - They die... you have to fix whatever damage they are suffering, defib them, then fix all the damage they took during new crit such as brain damage, organ damage, subject them to surgery multiple times incase they got all the internal stuff. Or throw them in cloning for 5 minutes. IPCs have it easy compared to the damage others take and have to deal with. ----- I see it a bit like this. We've already got 3 space resistant races: Vox They have cold and low-pressure immunity due to their background of being genetically designed and bread, to be the manual labor from whatever background they come from. Previously old Vox used to have insulation immunity as well, but that was too OP and got removed. Either way, the only bonus that Vox have is space immunity, but even with their cold / low-pressure immunity they still slow down to a crawl, Diona speed when they are in it without a space suit. They also take EMP damage, their bones are easier to break (A full 2-3 hits compared to 5-6 from other races), can't breath oxygen (So if their tank runs out or is stolen, they'll die), cannot be cloned (With monkey know how / stable mutagen, it's possible but still takes a lot of effort), not used to alcohol and take more from brute damage. Diona Diona cost no karma, have low-pressure, cold and pain immunity. They heal from radiation, and from light. So a Diona holding onto a flashlight can just space walk all they want. Their only downside is plant b-gone, no light = death, take more heat damage and very slow compared to everyone else (In space, that just flat out cancels out). Plasmamen They cost a full 100 karma, does not have / technically need blood, breath plasma from a tank like Vox, and have low-pressure and cold immunity from their suit. But if they take it off, they catch on fire. Every single one of those races, have a downside. Vox have the immunities but take more damage and their bones are easier to break. Diona have the immunities but very slow to any threats and would die without any light. Plasmaman have the immunities but manage to take a certain thing, they'll die. And the other thing that connects them all is they are organics, they all have bones, suffer from poison, toxins, oxygen / nitrogen loss AND require surgery if they are very messed up. They can't hang out in space forever from all those conditions. If they get sick, ill, broken or such, they HAVE to return to the station. But let's look at the IPC. IPC Immune to any and all viruses, both good and bad. Immune to any and all toxin and radiation damage. Immune to any and all oxygen loss, as they do not breath. Immune to any and all pain as they are robotic machines. Immune to any and all eye welding damage. Immune to any and all genetic issues. Easily repaired on the go, cable coil for burns, welder for brute. Regains blood by drinking oil that Robotics / Chemistry can make in 20 seconds flat. Recharge / Hunger from any APC. Brain located in their torso, so taking off their head merely blinds / deafens them, which can easily be re-fitted back on. Any limbs that are taken off, you can easily slam them onto a table and reattach it. Any damage they take inside their bodies, you slam them on the table, screwdriver, crowbar, welder / cables, crowbar. They also still use the old crit system, which means they actually live and survive longer with no downside compared to someone suffering from new crit damage. Their only downside is, they take more damage 50%, EMPs are fatal (As you're taking like 30-50 damage on everything), easier to take their heads off and low blood incurs stamina damage. So two IPCs run off into space, with a bag full of cable coil, and a bag full of welders. So long as they have a table / roller bed or can make one, they can infinitely repair each other, do surgery on each other and have no issues at all. All for the low price of 15 karma, compared to the free, 45 and 100 karma with downside races. It just sounds to me like, no offence to anyone at all, but IPC players are wanting more boons because "Oh theses races can be in space, why can't IPCs?"

Not a lot of scientists when they are doing RnD and then doing upgrades around the station seem to understand what exactly they CAN upgrade, so this is a little list with all the locations of upgradable items that you can shoot with your BRPE or with your screwdriver and RPE (Will update later with parts of each machine). They'll be split between their departments and sub-areas within them: Science RnD: Protolathe - Effects: Allows the protolathe to hold more materials and lowers the cost anything made in the protolathe (Example: Super Matter Bin which is 200 metal, will suddenly be 80 metal. 800 for 10, instead of 2000 for 10.) Circuit creator - Effects: Allows it to hold more materials and lowers the cost of anything made in the circuit creator (Example: Any board will cost 400 glass instead of 1000 glass.) Analyzer - Effects: Supposed to make it so you can reach higher levels easier / waste less items needed for research, doubt this still applies. Any other machines you can make from theses machines can also be upgraded, so an autolathe, exosuit, ect. Robotics: Exosuit Fabs - Effects: Faster creation, more material space, less cost of items. Circuit Creator - See RnD Mech Chargers - Effects: Faster battery charging Cyborg Rechargers - Effects: Not only does this allow the cyborg to charge faster, with the top upgrades, it allows faster re-construction of cyborg items (Such as cable coil) AND gives them self-repair while they are inside. This will also effect IPCs or Drones. Toxins: Freezer - Effects: Allows the cooling (Or heating) of gases at a much quicker rate. So you can go from 20c to -200c in about 10 seconds as compared to a minute. Can even make gases go lower (or higher) then the standard limits. Testing Lab: E.X.P.E.R.I-MENTOR - Effects: Lowers the chance of negative / bad events happening when picking certain options. Science Chemicals: Chem Dispensers - Effects: More energy / battery, faster recharge of the energy / battery, and unlocks some new pre-made chemicals such as Ash, Oil, Dipeh, ect. Chemical Heater - Effects: Quicker heating of chemicals. Chem Masters - Effects: Not sure exactly what this does. Best to skip it. Xenobiology: Slime Processor - Effects: Instead of 1 slime core for 1 slime, you'll get multiple slime cores from 1 slime. Monkey recycler - Effects: Within the basics, it takes multiple dead monkeys to achieve 1 monkey, meaning you have to waste those for only a single return. With upgrades, you get multiple monkeys from 1 dead. Services: Hydroponics: Biogenerator - Effects: Lowers the cost of items made in it, and allows more points from plants put inside. Seed Extractor - Effects: Makes more and multiple seeds from one plant (So if one plant would give you say 5 seeds, an upgraded extractor could give you up to 15). DNA Extractor - Effects: Higher chance of successfully removing or implanting genetic traits from one plant/seed to another. Planters - Effects: Allows more water / nutrients to be held, rarely used and often considered a waste of resources as you'd need to upgrade 19 of them. Kitchen: Food Processor / Grill / Microwaves / Oven / Deep Fryer / Candy Maker - Effects: Makes multiple food items from the upgraded machine (Up to 4 pizzas or more instead of just 1) Bar: Booze / Soda dispensers - Effects: Unlocks new drinks for the bartender to use, including antihol. Medical: Chemistry: Chem Dispensers - See Science Chemicals Chemical Heaters - See Science Chemicals Chem Masters - See Science Chemicals Examination Room / Surgeries / Morgue: Sleepers - Effects: Allows doctors to inject more chemicals into a person (Standard is 20, upgrades can allow up to 80). Body Scanners - Effects: Allows a much more deeper and stronger scan on a person, used to show syndicate implants; no longer the case. Cryo: Cryotubes - Effects: Allows quicker injection of cryomix (In theory / supposed, dunno if actually works) Freezer - See Toxins. Cloning: Cloning Scanner - Effects: Allows a better scan of the person and with the proper upgrades, will allow auto-processing to be turned on. If you scan a person before death or throw a dead body into the scanner, if they can be cloned or die somewhere among the station, the cloner will automatically know and start the cloning process without you having to scan and manually start it. Cloning Pod - Effects: Standard cloning pods come out with people needing to be thrown into a cyro pod, given mannitol and a mutadon / clean SE, as well as a long waiting time up to 5 minutes. Upgraded cloning pods remove those effects, fully upgraded cloning pods allow a person to be cloned in a short amount of time with NO side-effects or needing to be put into cryo. Cyrotube - Effects: See cryo Freezer - See Toxins. Geneticist: DNA modifier - Effects: Allows quicker, more exact radiations on a person, and better scanning at allowing powers to be found quicker with a higher chance of activating. Engineering: Mechanic: Pod Fab - Effects: More material holding space, less cost of items, quicker build speed. Engineering lobby: Cyborg Recharger - See Robotics. Atmospherics: Freezers - Effects: See Toxins, often considered a waste as you have to upgrade multiple ones and rarely used by atmo-techs. Supply Mail Room: Ore Redemption Machine (ORM) - Effects: Allows more points per mined materials, allowing miners to buy mining equipment easier. More usable materials from less ore. Cargo Lobby: Autolathe - Effects: Allows more materials to be held, quicker item creation time (practically instantly), less cost of resources. Security: Brig Medical Bay: Sleeper - Effects: See Examination Room Any machines that the brig doctor decided to make / asks for help in making. From body scanners to cyropods. Security Pod Pilot: Pod Fab - Effects: See Mechanic Permabrig: (Note: Probably avoid this if people are in there) Biogenerator - Effects: See Hydroponics Seed Extractor - Effects: See Hydroponics Public Areas: Gardens: Biogenerator - Effects: See Hydroponics Seed Extractor - Effects: See Hydroponics Holodorms Bathroom: Cyborg Recharger - Effects: See Robotics

There does seem to be a lot of miscommunication based on telescience within the topic, much like Jazz said. I think trying to break each and every complaint / pros for telescience will show that it's not as "Robust" and "Broken" as people claim it to be. Telescience is nearly broken by itself from the start, unless you're a super computer that knows everything wrong / right and how to do telescience immediately, you'll never successfully do it without a program. But a program itself doesn't even help you to begin with, the programs that you are talking about only help you with coordinates that you ALREADY have.. and even then, nearly every program (Such as one that I've used myself) you need to calibrate both the program and the telescience in-game to even make it successful. Fun fact: You know that calibrate in telescience for the crystals? There's a chance that after every teleport, that the calibration turns wrong, especially if you re-calibrate the crystals, as it will change the whole of telescience, meaning you have to redo from the start. "Sadly, teleportations (the exact number is randomized every calibration) the Telepad will decalibrate. This means that the telepad simply will not work, and when you hit recalibrate again, you will have to recalibrate your offsets." In a way, it certainly can help traitors but this is ENTIRELY subjective. You can say that a traitor can use telescience for anything.. stealing an item / object, stealing a locker, stealing <insert whatever here>, teleporting a person or even teleporting a bomb onto someone to blow them up. But EVERYTHING is subjective in this way. Let's just magically say that you know the coordinates for where an item you have to steal is.. what's to say the item is still there? What's to say someone hasn't already taken it or walking around with it? What's to even say you got the right coordinates? How are you going to take it off the person constantly walking around, with their coordinates changing every second? Another fun fact: Unless that person has sensors onto full, they'll NEVER have full coordinates to figure out where you even are. And even if you did manage to get lucky and say teleport a bomb onto someone / somewhere and it goes off, if that person survives / is SR'd / cloned, they'll scream of a magical teleporting bomb, and who does that point the finger to? Whoever is in science, meaning a full crackdown on science and telescience being deconstructed. And there is a delay on teleporting, both in receive and send.. of at least 3-5 seconds, enough time for anything to go wrong or happen. As Jazz pointed out, this can easily be fixed by marking an area with the teleportation block flag, which most important areas in the game usually do have. Plus what exactly are you going to do? You're a traitor or just someone mucking about, and you teleport yourself to any of theses locations (And their respected outcomes): Syndie Outpost: You teleport over, 1) You die to a syndie NPC. 2) You get shot to death by a turret. 3) You just realized you stranded yourself on a place with no communication, no space suit, and didn't tell anyone you were doing this because you wanted the selfish loot to yourself. 4) You have someone to help you back, but mucked up by moving and forgot which tile exactly pulls you back, as there's no communication at all. Armory: You teleport over, 1) You get robusted by Armsky and announce your presense to every officer in security, you get arrested. 2) You teleport guns to yourself.. infront of all your co-workers who then report you to security. 3) You do it stealthy like, until security notices their stuff is missing and comes to the conclusion. Vault: You teleport over, 1) Realize your an idiot and got yourself stuck for the Ai to find and get arrested. 2) You bring the nuke to you, good job.. now how are you going to hide it from everyone? AI Upload: You teleport over, 1) Immediately stunned by turrets and robusted by the heads on the bridge. Everything is subjective in the location you choose and the preparations you make for it, and even if you are FULLY prepared, there's nothing to say you'll ever succeed or win. Especially if you're doing it alone. And as stated before, EVERY z level is designed to change. Maybe one round you have the white ship in z level 1 near the station.. maybe another round it's at z level 3 near the engi outpost. And some z level specific stuff don't spawn at all, it's all randomized, the locations too. No, the same situations happen as described above. How are you going to save someone from a spider if they are constantly moving? And as far as I'm aware, you can't teleport cocoons, meaning whatever people the spiders have.. will be stuck there unless freed. And what exactly are you going to use telescience for against the spiders or xenos? Trying to teleport someone to you, one spider stands on the tile.. you have a new friend come to bite your face off. It's really not.. do you know the materials and such needed for it? 1x Telepad Control Board 1x Telepad board 1x Console screen 11x Cable Coil 10x Metal Sheets 2x Glass 5x Bluespace Crystals 1x Quadratic Capacitor So not only do you need the glass and materials to make the telepad boards, you also need Bluespace crystals.. which is rare on mining to find, requiring a full 5 meesh, xenobiology to be ontop of slimes or artifical bluespace crystals which even then costs diamonds and uranium. But also a Quadratic Capactior, which you can only get by Power level 6/7, which also requires xenobiology. And then there's the random off-shoots of when you even make it. It just seems like there's a lot of miscommunication, and not taking into account various factors, while complaining about something because "It's OP". Robotists with materials in 30 minutes, can make Gygax's for all of security. Science with materials in 40-50 minutes, can make enough AEGs, X-ray implants and various other stuff for security to last them all shift. Chemisty + Science chem + Toxins can make enough bombs, explosives, grenades and the like (Especially Science Chem with reusable cases) in a flat 5 minutes to destroy, kill, or breach multiple areas on the station, especially with the latest update to chem dispensers. Medical, with sciences help, can have 4-6 cloning pod cloning people all at once. Genetists can randomly fire hulk and start smashing everything in sight. A traitor with the right know how can literally build themselves an AI upload. And those situations are deliberate and happen every single round, yet, no one calls them "OP" for the sake of "They help" when they literally make certain people / crew / antag's life a living hell. Imagine you're an antag, got all the best loot, best gear, holopara, suit to survive in space while taunting and having ago at security about how you're getting away with things. Then all of a sudden one the officer has an x-ray laser gun, with x-ray vision / implant and manages to get you into crit within a few shots that you can barely react too. Telescience is constantly random, it's barely OP.

Reason why Atropine isn't in vendors already, is because Atropine (almost) immediately fixes heart issues within five seconds compared to Epine which takes a longer while to kick in. So the admemes decided that if you want Atropine, you need chemistry to make it. Just keep poking chemistry until they do it.

When you see Husky getting arrested, and you take the chance.